Another Incident At Grt Yarmouth I'm Afraid.

[Vaughan]

45 minutes ago, Wussername said:

I'm sure that I have seen a prop moving albeit very very slowly even in neutral enough to cause injury i suspect. But I may have imagined that bit. Put it down to sans eyes, sans teeth, sans everything!

Or put it down to a Parsons or TMP gearbox. I quite agree with you.

 

47 minutes ago, Wussername said:

I have even seen one of our members leaving his boat in gear whilst mooring at our Salhouse meet.

So did I . Best we don't talk about that, of course . . . . 

[JennyMorgan]

58 minutes ago, Wussername said:

I have even seen one of our members leaving his boat in gear whilst mooring at our Salhouse meet.

Has the Salhouse 2021 meet been penciled in yet?

[Smoggy]

1 hour ago, Wussername said:

I am not trying to be smart or clever and I do understand why the engine needs to be turned off when people are swimming very close to a maneuvering boat.

What is the recommended action if you suddenly find yourself amongst children in the water, swimming as was the case at Ranworth and Womack two weeks ago.

What would your state of mind be if heaven forbid you contributed to an accident and is it not appropriate to take action now rather than wait for the conclusion of a judicial judgement which could take months.

 

I can't find the post I was referring to Wussername but I'm sure it wasn't in referrence to one of yours, it was mentioned that if some is stuck under your boat the helm is obliged to get away but I'm stuffed if I can find it.

No offence meant.

[Wussername]

15 minutes ago, Smoggy said:

I can't find the post I was referring to Wussername but I'm sure it wasn't in referrence to one of yours, it was mentioned that if some is stuck under your boat the helm is obliged to get away but I'm stuffed if I can find it.

No offence meant.

No offence taken.

Not guilty guv re helm obliged to get away.

It is very rare for this type of incident but I suspect a very difficult one to achieve a satisfactory outcome.

[Oddfellow]

9 hours ago, Meantime said:

An interesting aside whilst talking about limits and regulations. There is a maximum limit of 12 people onboard for hire boats, yet no limit to the number of people that someone can take on board their own boat providing it is not for reward. Notwithstanding the current Corona virus regulations off course.

We once saw a private boat going through the centre of Norwich and we counted somewhere in the region of 20 people on board. I don't know if there where others inside. I contacted the BA a few days later and asked the question to be told that if it was private and not for reward there was no regulation and it is a matter for the owner and helm to ensure everyone is safe. I would imagine the insurance company may have taken a dim view of it in the event of an accident.

That limit goes beyond hire too. Its related to MCA regulations. No ferry can have more than 12 passengers either, else it falls under MCA regulations which are much stricter than the local authority licensing schemes and the BSS every 4 years. 

[Oddfellow]

7 hours ago, Meantime said:

I was actually searching for another picture in relation to something else, but came across this picture, which reminded me of something Andy had said earlier in this thread. It's not Breydon, but either the Lower Wveney before Goodchild, or the Lower Bure, but it does reinforce what Andy said about these boats are not specifically designed to sit on dry moorings, although this is the only case I'm aware of a boat tipping over like that.

This particular incident was incredibly unfortunate and nobody was at fault. The vessel ran aground on a hither-to-unknown mud bank which seemed to have appeared. It wasn't showing on any existing hydrographic surveys at the time. I am not sure what happened at the location after this was recovered. 

[Oddfellow]

3 hours ago, JennyMorgan said:

A regular occurrence during my misspent youth! 

Love to see you try that on an Horizon 35 :-)

[JennyMorgan]

30 minutes ago, FreedomBoatingHols said:

Love to see you try that on an Horizon 35 :-)

Does an Horizon 35 have twin trapezes and a top speed of about 30 kts?

[Oddfellow]

33 minutes ago, JennyMorgan said:

Does an Horizon 35 have twin trapezes and a top speed of about 30 kts?

I have never been aware of such. However, in the hands of a hirer, who know's what the top speed could be? 

[RealWindmill]

8 hours ago, grendel said:

surely if someone were under the hull, the very last thing you would want the helm to do would be to use that big choppy thing under the boat, out of gear and no prop turning would be my thought.

my training has always been to make the environment safe first, then attend to the casualty.

A very sensible observation and highlights a "Golden Rule" for boat handling when a person is in the water. Good for 99% of all eventualities.

Take a hyperthetical situation not unlike recent  incidents but is no way related or pre-empts those cases.

A victim has entered the water from a boat, a typical new type slab sided flat bottomed large hire cruiser.  The victim is under the hull and the boat is pinned solid to the quayside by tide/current. The victim has about 2 minutes air in their lungs. There is no room anywhere to break surface.

A helm has these 2 minutes to make rapid life saving decisions. He must attempt to move the boat or the victim dies, becomes a casualty.

If the helm is trained and experienced he can kick the prop being mindful of the proximity of the victim and of wind/currents direction and use them to the best of his ability to move the boat away. 

He may , if he's really quick, use the quayside to make a warp manoeuver to create a hole between boat and quay to allow the victim to grab a lungful of air .

Either way he HAS to spin the prop and pray  his victim has not slid under the keel to nearer the prop.

He has given his victim a fighting chance of survival, which they otherwise did not have.

If that helm was untrained or a novice  -  then no chance.

 

 

[Mouldy]

4 minutes ago, RealWindmill said:

A very sensible observation and highlights a "Golden Rule" for boat handling when a person is in the water. Good for 99% of all eventualities.

Take a hyperthetical situation not unlike recent  incidents but is no way related or pre-empts those cases.

A victim has entered the water from a boat, a typical new type slab sided flat bottomed large hire cruiser.  The victim is under the hull and the boat is pinned solid to the quayside by tide/current. The victim has about 2 minutes air in their lungs. There is no room anywhere to break surface.

A helm has these 2 minutes to make rapid life saving decisions. He must attempt to move the boat or the victim dies, becomes a casualty.

If the helm is trained and experienced he can kick the prop being mindful of the proximity of the victim and of wind/currents direction and use them to the best of his ability to move the boat away. 

He may , if he's really quick, use the quayside to make a warp manoeuver to create a hole between boat and quay to allow the victim to grab a lungful of air .

Either way he HAS to spin the prop and pray  his victim has not slid under the keel to nearer the prop.

He has given his victim a fighting chance of survival, which they otherwise did not have.

If that helm was untrained or a novice  -  then no chance.

 

 

Here we go again!!!  Is it my imagination or is this yet another provocative post guaranteed to attract another avalanche of controversial responses.

[RealWindmill]

 

2 minutes ago, Mouldy said:

Here we go again!!!  Is it my imagination or is this yet another provocative post guaranteed to attract another avalanche of controversial responses.

Kindly explain how that can be so.

Am i not allowed an input on discussions of boat handling.

[Smoggy]

Do you keep a net on board with small enough holes to catch most of the casualty after kicking the prop with someone underneath?

Not only is this getting to serious trolling level it's also downright dangerous, it's good to know novices are getting advice like this from the forum, keeps the numbers down.....

[Mouldy]

8 minutes ago, RealWindmill said:

 

Kindly explain how that can be so.

Am i not allowed an input on discussions of boat handling.

If I say what I think, I’ll get modded.  You clearly can’t leave it alone, so I will.  As I said before, this used to be a friendly forum, but now sadly it is no more.  I cannot remember another member whose posts have been so unerringly provocative since I joined.

 

[RealWindmill]

7 minutes ago, Smoggy said:

Do you keep a net on board with small enough holes to catch most of the casualty after kicking the prop with someone underneath?

Not only is this getting to serious trolling level it's also downright dangerous, it's good to know novices are getting advice like this from the forum, keeps the numbers down.....

And me thinking I was illustrating the benefits of training of helmsmen. Sigh.

[grendel]

so your hypothetically 'trained' helsman knows better than the RYA advice 

Quote

Stop the engine when there is a risk of a person in the water coming into contact with the propeller

When swimming around a boat ensure the engine cannot be started inadvertently

give me an untrained helmsman following RYA guidance any day I fall in the water.

for someone supposedly concerned with safety, you give out the most dangerous advice I have ever heard.

[RealWindmill]

3 minutes ago, grendel said:

so your hypothetically 'trained' helsman knows better than the RYA advice 

give me an untrained helmsman following RYA guidance any day I fall in the water.

for someone supposedly concerned with safety, you give out the most dangerous advice I have ever heard.

Yes Grendel, understand the RYA advice and of course that applies to just about every situation and should be followed 99% of the time. The RYA cannot regulate for every eventuality.

my illustration was of a life saving situation which hopefully occurs very infrequently.

Apologies if it comes across as dangerous advice or as a bit too graphic for one commentator.

it's purpose was to show the benefits of training and how the mind and reactions of a trained helm could really save a persons life.

[Meantime]

2 hours ago, FreedomBoatingHols said:

This particular incident was incredibly unfortunate and nobody was at fault. The vessel ran aground on a hither-to-unknown mud bank which seemed to have appeared. It wasn't showing on any existing hydrographic surveys at the time. I am not sure what happened at the location after this was recovered. 

Am I right in thinking it was the Lower Waveney? Do you remember where it was?

[grendel]

the canal and river trust advise

Quote

Put your engine out of gear. Don’t reverse the boat – the person in the water could be dragged into the propeller.

 

[CambridgeCabby]

May I once again pass my condolences on to the friends and family of a young man who sadly lost his life earlier this month whilst holidaying with friends on the Broads .

No amount of speculation or what ifs will bring him back or ease the pain felt by those who knew him .

RIP young man 

[Meantime]

4 hours ago, Vaughan said:

I thought you said that you had only been a member here since 2018?  Sorry, silly question . . .

All the same, this photo is a long way out of date, in terms of present day safety precautions, which, I think, was the object of this thread.

Now that's the thing, you don't have to be a member to view threads here, or download pictures 

[Meantime]

4 hours ago, Wussername said:

Alan you are an experienced skipper also you know your own boat, in particular you know your boats handling characteristics.

I have seen hirers inadvertently leaving a  boat in gear whilst mooring. I have even seen one of our members leaving his boat in gear whilst mooring at our Salhouse meet.

I have seen people using the morse control not knowing where the neutral position is or not knowing how to disengage gears completely.

I'm sure that I have seen a prop moving albeit very very slowly even in neutral enough to cause injury i suspect. But I may have imagined that bit. Put it down to sans eyes, sans teeth, sans everything!

 

A question I meant to ask earlier. My boat is direct drive via gearbox and clutch. When in neutral the clutch disengages and the prop stops. For safety If needed I'd also stop the engine, but with a hydraulic drive is it similar to an automatic car where it wants to creep forward? Will the prop under some inertia slowly rotate, and how much power does it have behind it? or does hydraulic drive also fully disengage?

[Meantime]

1 hour ago, RealWindmill said:

A very sensible observation and highlights a "Golden Rule" for boat handling when a person is in the water. Good for 99% of all eventualities.

Take a hyperthetical situation not unlike recent  incidents but is no way related or pre-empts those cases.

A victim has entered the water from a boat, a typical new type slab sided flat bottomed large hire cruiser.  The victim is under the hull and the boat is pinned solid to the quayside by tide/current. The victim has about 2 minutes air in their lungs. There is no room anywhere to break surface.

A helm has these 2 minutes to make rapid life saving decisions. He must attempt to move the boat or the victim dies, becomes a casualty.

If the helm is trained and experienced he can kick the prop being mindful of the proximity of the victim and of wind/currents direction and use them to the best of his ability to move the boat away. 

He may , if he's really quick, use the quayside to make a warp manoeuver to create a hole between boat and quay to allow the victim to grab a lungful of air .

Either way he HAS to spin the prop and pray  his victim has not slid under the keel to nearer the prop.

He has given his victim a fighting chance of survival, which they otherwise did not have.

If that helm was untrained or a novice  -  then no chance.

 

 

It doesn't happen often. I'm lost for words!

Anybody, experienced or otherwise. If anybody is under a boat, or very near the prop you turn the engine off, then knock it out of gear. Stopping the engine first will stop the prop the quickest. 

[RealWindmill]

2 hours ago, RealWindmill said:

 

A helm has these 2 minutes to make rapid life saving decisions. He must attempt to move the boat or the victim dies, becomes a casualty.

He has given his victim a fighting chance of survival, which they otherwise did not have.

1 hour ago, RealWindmill said:

 

my illustration was of a life saving situation which hopefully occurs very infrequently.

It's purpose was to show the benefits of training and how the mind and reactions of a trained helm could really save a persons life.

 

I am requoting myself here purely for emphasis purposes. I feel some are misinterpreting my intentions.

Am not offering any advice to anyone. My purpose is to show how training will save a life which otherwise would have been lost.

I paint an unlikely scenario I realise , but is it though ?

If the victim is not trapped underneath and has a chance of emerging, then of course cut the engine.

[floydraser]

2 hours ago, RealWindmill said:

A very sensible observation and highlights a "Golden Rule" for boat handling when a person is in the water. Good for 99% of all eventualities.

Take a hyperthetical situation not unlike recent  incidents but is no way related or pre-empts those cases.

A victim has entered the water from a boat, a typical new type slab sided flat bottomed large hire cruiser.  The victim is under the hull and the boat is pinned solid to the quayside by tide/current. The victim has about 2 minutes air in their lungs. There is no room anywhere to break surface.

A helm has these 2 minutes to make rapid life saving decisions. He must attempt to move the boat or the victim dies, becomes a casualty.

If the helm is trained and experienced he can kick the prop being mindful of the proximity of the victim and of wind/currents direction and use them to the best of his ability to move the boat away. 

He may , if he's really quick, use the quayside to make a warp manoeuver to create a hole between boat and quay to allow the victim to grab a lungful of air .

Either way he HAS to spin the prop and pray  his victim has not slid under the keel to nearer the prop.

He has given his victim a fighting chance of survival, which they otherwise did not have.

If that helm was untrained or a novice  -  then no chance.

 

 

Well I agreed with your suggestion that some form of skipper/pilot/mentor would be a positive move, but I think with this post you have taken up residence on another planet completely!