Another Incident At Grt Yarmouth I'm Afraid.

[Meantime]

1 minute ago, Vaughan said:

And how many like that, have there been since?

Compared to the hundreds of thousands, even millions, who have since cruised that waterway in peace and tranquility?

Very true which is why I said.

13 minutes ago, Meantime said:

although this is the only case I'm aware of a boat tipping over like that.

I was merely using the picture because it backed up Andy's point in a post why why back in the depths of time on this thread.

[MauriceMynah]

15 minutes ago, Meantime said:

 although this is the only case I'm aware of a boat tipping over like that.

I would point out that since that happened, I have moved my booze to a more central point.

[oldgregg]

4 minutes ago, grendel said:

surely if someone were under the hull, the very last thing you would want the helm to do would be to use that big choppy thing under the boat, out of gear and no prop turning would be my thought.

my training has always been to make the environment safe first, then attend to the casualty.

Props are definitely dangerous and anything which can be done to improve safety there has to be a good thing.

People don't necessarily appreciate the danger the prop poses and I think while logically they should be into neutral and switching off, in reality panic will set in and the opposite is likely to happen.

I don't know what the answer is. A propeller guard seems like a good idea but on the Broads how practical is that? I would imagine it would get choked up with weeds in precisely no time and need the boat lifting out regularly for checking.

[Regulo]

13 minutes ago, MauriceMynah said:

I would point out that since that happened, I have moved my booze to a more central point.

But if, as you say, it's in your stomach, you'll still need to remain centralised on the boat.

[ranworthbreeze]

18 minutes ago, oldgregg said:

Props are definitely dangerous and anything which can be done to improve safety there has to be a good thing.

People don't necessarily appreciate the danger the prop poses and I think while logically they should be into neutral and switching off, in reality panic will set in and the opposite is likely to happen.

I don't know what the answer is. A propeller guard seems like a good idea but on the Broads how practical is that? I would imagine it would get choked up with weeds in precisely no time and need the boat lifting out regularly for checking.

Hello oldgregg,

Here is a link to the RYA regarding prop guards.

https://www.rya.org.uk/knowledge-advice/safe-boating/look-after-yourself/equipment-for-uk-pleasure-vessels/Pages/prop-guards.aspx

Regards

Alan

[Smoggy]

1 hour ago, MauriceMynah said:

I would point out that since that happened, I have moved my booze to a more central point.

Would that central point be the helms bladder?

[oldgregg]

59 minutes ago, ranworthbreeze said:

Hello oldgregg,

Here is a link to the RYA regarding prop guards.

https://www.rya.org.uk/knowledge-advice/safe-boating/look-after-yourself/equipment-for-uk-pleasure-vessels/Pages/prop-guards.aspx

Cheers for that! Yeah. there are a number of reasons not to fit them for sure.

The thought occured to me last week and it struck me that really it needs to be factored into the design of the hull so that the whole thing is relatively protected within the shape of the keel.

There's always jet drives i guess but those have been tried on the Broads I think and don't particularly suit our weedy, muddy waters nor the low revs that Broads cruisers operate at.

[Mouldy]

4 hours ago, RealWindmill said:

large boat then it is the duty of the helm to get away. In strong winds maybe not easy. But the experienced helm will have a better chance than a novice.

Training. Think on.

 

2 hours ago, grendel said:

surely if someone were under the hull, the very last thing you would want the helm to do would be to use that big choppy thing under the boat, out of gear and no prop turning would be my thought.

My thoughts, too, but I didn’t want to be ‘rude’ and say!

[grendel]

well we were told we should not just stand by and watch someone get into trouble, after all even experienced helms can get it wrong.

After all the important part of this topic is people getting mixed up with propellors, so we wouldnt want the incorrect advice to be promoted as the right thing to do.

even the RYA say stop the engine if someone is in the water near that part of the boat.

[annv]

The broads authority some years ago put size restrictions on various rivers as at that time hire yards where building bigger and bigger boats, so size was defined as the biggest hire boat at the time, there was however (which allows Brundle size boats ) to navigate anywhere but only for two or three times a year (cant remember which) it's in the regs in small print i had a boat that came under this but as i didn't need to exceed the amount of times it didn't cause me any problems where as a hire boat would,   and ref to Vaughans quote there is a get out as to the boat build  regs that states you do not need to conform to the build reg's PROVIDING you don't sell it for five years,  you can not sell a boat before this time elapses without a certificate and as Vaughan said it is very complex and covers a multitude of rules,  even down to how much luggage each person on board weight wise can have, i know because i went through all this when i built my present boat it also covers reboarding from the water unaided among a multitude of things many that are stupide, made up by a jobs worth that didn't know boats. John

[Vaughan]

3 minutes ago, annv said:

regs that states you do not need to conform to the build reg's PROVIDING you don't sell it for five years,  you can not sell a boat before this time elapses without a certificate

That may well be true but I was, of course, talking of boats built by a boatyard, for sale as either private or hire.

It may be worth mentioning that there is no specific regulation for the building of inland waterways boats, as far as I know. The BSS is probably the closest that we come to it but even that is a safety standard rather than a building standard.  In Europe on inland waterways, all boats have to be ERCD cat. D, which is the minimum offshore standard.

Commercial boatyards will normally build boats to Cat.C as this lets them sell their designs as offshore as well as inland vessels.

I sometimes use Ranworthbreeze as an example of this, as she was built by Birchwood to Cat. C, but is being used on the Broads in Cat. D conditions. The big Broom hire boats, which are the same design as the Crown Classique, are also built to Cat. C

[annv]

Hi Vaughan Yes of course all hire boats will have to comply i can't remember the differences between C and D as i built mine to cat C i do remember what a minefield it was to comply and some off the were conditions were stupid. John

[marshman]

The whole of the Broads are Cat A waters with the exception of Breydon, which is Cat B under the Inland Waters Categorisation and Vaughan is right about the old Board of Trade requirements limiting passengers to 12 - I think this is not occupants but literally fare paying passengers. You can find the various waterways and their Categories on the specific MCA document. Just to confuse issues this categorisation is completely the reverse of the RCD classification when taking about boat design!!!

The old Board of Trade regulations regarding inland waters are all covered by the regulations within the Inland Waters SPBC  ( Small Passenger Boat Code) from which comes the wondrous requirement that to be qualified to sail a Norfolk wherry, you need the have the RYA PB2 qualification - good innit!!!! Thats what happens when you let the shiny suits loose!!! ( See first para too !!! )

[Smoggy]

15 minutes ago, marshman said:

Just to confuse issues this categorisation is completely the reverse of the RCD classification when taking about boat design!!!

I'm glad you added that as yes I certainly had just got confused by the cats.

I have to add that if anyone gets under my boat you can rest assured I will NOT be trying to move it anywhere to get away from you, engines off will be the first action no matter how many rya qualifications someone has.

[Vaughan]

27 minutes ago, annv said:

Yes of course all hire boats will have to comply i can't remember the differences between C and D as i built mine to cat C i do remember what a minefield it was to comply

I can't remember either to be honest!  Not without Googling it but they basically concern the wave height that a vessel can cope with, and the distance offshore that they are allowed "from shelter".

[Vaughan]

2 minutes ago, Smoggy said:

I'm glad you added that as yes I certainly had just got confused by the cats.

It is very confusing! I have spent many sleepless nights over it.

The French have 4 categories of waterway, of which hire boats are only allowed on the 4th category.

There is also a big difference between "homologation" which is type approval ; and "immatriculation" which is registration to navigate.  So a boat may well be "homologué" but that does not mean it is "immatriculé"!

This is also why you never see the Albion with more than 12 passengers.  If not she would need handrails all round and life rafts all over the hatch covers.

Perish the thought!

[Vaughan]

4 hours ago, Meantime said:

I have been looking again at this and there is something missing, isn't there?

There are no channel marker posts and the casualty is on the inside of the bend, where the water is always more shallow, on an alluvial river.

The bottom around there shelves very steeply in hard mud, so you only need to make a mistake of about 10 feet in your course, and you have had it! So the boat has grounded its keel on an angled bottom, which has allowed it to "fall over the edge" when the tide went down, until water came in through vents in the topsides (see Andy's post) and that was the end of it.

If you were to take a photo of that same bend now, I think you would see a rather different vista, of danger warning markers all round the corner.

Which indicates (I sincerely hope) that safety is continually reviewed on the Broads.

[JennyMorgan]

4 hours ago, Meantime said:

. . . . . . . . although this is the only case I'm aware of a boat tipping over like that.

A regular occurrence during my misspent youth! 

[Meantime]

16 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

I have been looking again at this and there is something missing, isn't there?

There are no channel marker posts and the casualty is on the inside of the bend, where the water is always more shallow, on an alluvial river.

The bottom around there shelves very steeply in hard mud, so you only need to make a mistake of about 10 feet in your course, and you have had it! So the boat has grounded its keel on an angled bottom, which has allowed it to "fall over the edge" when the tide went down, until water came in through vents in the topsides (see Andy's post) and that was the end of it.

If you were to take a photo of that same bend now, I think you would see a rather different vista, of danger warning markers all round the corner.

Which indicates (I sincerely hope) that safety is continually reviewed on the Broads.

I honestly cannot remember exactly where that was, but if I was pushed, I believe it is just upstream of Burgh Castle moorings. There was a growing shelf there for some time which as you rightly point out was unmarked. If it is the place that I'm thinking of then they did put some bouys there, which I'm sure have now been removed since dredging has taken place on that bend a season or two back.

I think I can just make out a windmill on Haddiscoe Island in the background which is the one near Berney Arms mill. I'm sure I saved the picture from a thread on here at the time. 

One of the techies here might be able to tie the picture name to a thread which would have more details, I'm not sure? post-18022-0-16981900-1428529690.jpg

[Wussername]

50 minutes ago, Smoggy said:

I'm glad you added that as yes I certainly had just got confused by the cats.

I have to add that if anyone gets under my boat you can rest assured I will NOT be trying to move it anywhere to get away from you, engines off will be the first action no matter how many rya qualifications someone has.

I am not trying to be smart or clever and I do understand why the engine needs to be turned off when people are swimming very close to a maneuvering boat.

What is the recommended action if you suddenly find yourself amongst children in the water, swimming as was the case at Ranworth and Womack two weeks ago.

What would your state of mind be if heaven forbid you contributed to an accident and is it not appropriate to take action now rather than wait for the conclusion of a judicial judgement which could take months.

 

[ranworthbreeze]

34 minutes ago, Wussername said:

I am not trying to be smart or clever and I do understand why the engine needs to be turned off when people are swimming very close to a maneuvering boat.

What is the recommended action if you suddenly find yourself amongst children in the water, swimming as was the case at Ranworth and Womack two weeks ago.

What would your state of mind be if heaven forbid you contributed to an accident and is it not appropriate to take action now rather than wait for the conclusion of a judicial judgement which could take months.

 

Seeing someone in the water I would slow down and even put the Morse control in neutral whist giving them time to move out of the way, when clear I would proceed slowly keeping a eye on the water for any more swimmers further up the river.

 

[stumpy]

5 hours ago, oldgregg said:

Props are definitely dangerous and anything which can be done to improve safety there has to be a good thing.

People don't necessarily appreciate the danger the prop poses and I think while logically they should be into neutral and switching off, in reality panic will set in and the opposite is likely to happen.

I don't know what the answer is. A propeller guard seems like a good idea but on the Broads how practical is that? I would imagine it would get choked up with weeds in precisely no time and need the boat lifting out regularly for checking.

I may have mentioned it before but my first and only (DG) contact with a propeller injury was at about 16 when I was press ganged as a stretcher bearer at Waldringfield between the safety boat and an ambulance, the patient's lower leg followed in a sail bag! 50+ years on still gives me shivers.

[grendel]

ditto, if i see swimmers its into neutral and ghost past as far away from them as i can manage, ditto paddle boards and canoes.

[Vaughan]

55 minutes ago, Meantime said:

I think I can just make out a windmill on Haddiscoe Island in the background which is the one near Berney Arms mill. I'm sure I saved the picture from a thread on here at the time. 

I thought you said that you had only been a member here since 2018?  Sorry, silly question . . .

All the same, this photo is a long way out of date, in terms of present day safety precautions, which, I think, was the object of this thread.

[Wussername]

5 minutes ago, ranworthbreeze said:

Seeing someone in the water I would slow down and even put the Morse control in neutral whist giving them time to move out of the way, when clear I would proceed slowly keeping a eye on the water for any more swimmers further up the river.

 

Alan you are an experienced skipper also you know your own boat, in particular you know your boats handling characteristics.

I have seen hirers inadvertently leaving a  boat in gear whilst mooring. I have even seen one of our members leaving his boat in gear whilst mooring at our Salhouse meet.

I have seen people using the morse control not knowing where the neutral position is or not knowing how to disengage gears completely.

I'm sure that I have seen a prop moving albeit very very slowly even in neutral enough to cause injury i suspect. But I may have imagined that bit. Put it down to sans eyes, sans teeth, sans everything!