Another Incident At Grt Yarmouth I'm Afraid.

[Vaughan]

8 hours ago, Mouldy said:

 I cannot remember another member whose posts have been so unerringly provocative since I joined.

I can, but it depends when you joined the forum!

Don't go though, as I am sure this thing will eventually run its course. 

As it did the last time!

[Vaughan]

7 hours ago, Meantime said:

A question I meant to ask earlier. My boat is direct drive via gearbox and clutch. When in neutral the clutch disengages and the prop stops. For safety If needed I'd also stop the engine, but with a hydraulic drive is it similar to an automatic car where it wants to creep forward? Will the prop under some inertia slowly rotate, and how much power does it have behind it? or does hydraulic drive also fully disengage?

Hydraulic drive cuts off completely as it is controlled by a bi-directional valve which pumps the oil either one way or the other down the same pipes, for ahead and astern.  So there is no shaft creep.  In addition you cannot turn the prop shaft by hand either in neutral, or with the engine switched off.

The system has a pressure relief pipe which lets the oil back to the header tank and stops the prop if it becomes fouled by a rope, in order to prevent other damage. Whether that would be sensitive enough to protect a leg, I don't know but very probably not.

[Vaughan]

8 hours ago, RealWindmill said:

If that helm was untrained or a novice  -  then no chance.

All right then, for the sake of the forum and its readers I will give you serious answers to your hypothesis.

For a start, if you can hold your breath underwater for 2 minutes then you are a better free diver than I am, Gunga Din.  I can do about a minute and a quarter if I am just lying underneath and not exerting.  Checking a prop, or the bottom, for damage for instance.  Someone stuck underneath, in a panic, would not do anywhere near that time.  Not even half a minute.

What you describe as a slab sided boat would be very rare.  Even a Bounty bathtub is narrower at the waterline than at deck level, over the thick rubbing strake.  Hire boats have permanently hung fenders which are about the same round as a human head.  So there will always be the possibility to find air, unless you are physically stuck.  I know this well as have often swum between the sides of moored boats or between the boat and the bank, when checking them for damage in a boatyard basin.  There is always plenty of room.

On the trial run, when talking about falling in, I have two instructions :

1/.   To the person falling in - the swimmer - I recommend swimming to the bank.  In most places on the Broads, by the time you get there you will be standing on the bottom.

2/.   To the helmsman, always approach the swimmer bows on and stop the boat when you get there.  As soon as you have the swimmer in hand, with a rope or boathook, stop the engine.  You can then pull the swimmer to the back of the boat where it will be easier to get them out.

I always emphasise that the danger from the prop is every bit as much as the danger from falling in.  Probably more so.

I cannot think of anyone with what you call "training" ever recommending that a helmsman should attempt to manoeuvre a boat when he knows there is a swimmer near the aft end or even worse, underneath.

So I am afraid that your hypothesis does not "hold water".

 

 

[SwanR]

Vaughan thank you. Your advice sounds straightforward, easy to understand and to remember. 

In that moment of what I can only imagine would be sheer panic how would the helm even know where the person overboard was. 

[Oddfellow]

9 hours ago, Meantime said:

A question I meant to ask earlier. My boat is direct drive via gearbox and clutch. When in neutral the clutch disengages and the prop stops. For safety If needed I'd also stop the engine, but with a hydraulic drive is it similar to an automatic car where it wants to creep forward? Will the prop under some inertia slowly rotate, and how much power does it have behind it? or does hydraulic drive also fully disengage?

ah, well this all depends. The hydraulic drive is controlled by valves that direct the flow of fluid in a clockwise or anti-clockwise motion through the motor. Closing the valve so that there's no flow will prevent the motor from turning under power. Creep is unusual because it's fluid pressure as much as flow that make the motor turn. 

Worn clutch plates in a hydraulic  gearbox will make the prop creep to, but not with any force; you can hold the shaft by hand for instance. 

[Oddfellow]

Under no circumstances do you operate the prop anywhere near a MOB. EVER. 

How much training would ANYBODY need to undergo before they could be deemed suitably trained and experienced to deliberately put a MOB at risk in this way? 

This horse is dead. Let's stop flogging it. PLEASE, can RealWindmill please stop living up to his name/function and cease going around in circles.

Yes, more training MAY help people; there can be no argument that this is true but it is experience that counts for most things in life. Training is only good to a point; it's drill and practice that makes most people remember things.  
 

[rightsaidfred]

Not something I would normally consider but I think its time for the ignore button or take up growing magic mushrooms, not sure which is the best option.

Fred

[Meantime]

8 minutes ago, rightsaidfred said:

Not something I would normally consider but I think its time for the ignore button or take up growing magic mushrooms, not sure which is the best option.

Fred

As I mentioned yesterday it takes two to make a discussion, so probably ignoring is the best policy. However it is very hard to ignore potentially deadly advice. 

I think this thread has been important, but run out of steam now so plan on this being my last post on the subject unless there is a very compelling reason to reply.

So on that note I will leave you all with something I read yesterday which puts into perspective some of the advice given recently.

Did you know that a typical 3-blade propeller runs at 3,200 rpm? It can inflict 160 impacts each second.

A typical propeller from recreation vessel can travel from the head to the toe on a person in less than 1/10 of a second.

[Oddfellow]

11 minutes ago, Meantime said:

edit...

Did you know that a typical 3-blade propeller runs at 3,200 rpm? It can inflict 160 impacts each second.

A typical propeller from recreation vessel can travel from the head to the toe on a person in less than 1/10 of a second.

A sobering thought. 

On handovers, I refer to them as a "blender for legs". I now realise how wrong I was. 

[Gracie]

11 hours ago, Mouldy said:

If I say what I think, I’ll get modded.  You clearly can’t leave it alone, so I will.  As I said before, this used to be a friendly forum, but now sadly it is no more.  I cannot remember another member whose posts have been so unerringly provocative since I joined.

 

I agree for what it's worth 

I am so grateful for the very intelligent and informed posters on this topic, I've learned a lot from you guys, thank you

Please let it go now, let's get back on track and be the friendly Forum once again. 

Soon be Christmas  x

[Vaughan]

16 minutes ago, Meantime said:

Did you know that a typical 3-blade propeller runs at 3,200 rpm? It can inflict 160 impacts each second.

I agree very much with the danger you are highlighting but I think you have read something about hight speed outboard RIBs. A Broads engine will do about 2000 revs average and usually has a 2:1 reduction gearbox.

[Vaughan]

13 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

A Broads engine will do about 2000 revs average and usually has a 2:1 reduction gearbox.

On the other hand a Broads prop is a bloody great bronze thing, compared to an outboard.  Anything up to 22 inches round, on a big hire boat.

[tim]

I'm a once a year boater, I now consider myself competent but clearly not as good as people who helm every week, I know that so take extra care when mooring!

Our first hire was back in 2010, well, I had been before as a 'fire proof' 20 year old with mates and our girlfriends back in 1981, but we wont go there!

We had hired San Luis from Richardsons an Ocean 30 an aft cockpit, we did the hand over and was instructed how to moor etc, did the trial run everything was good, I felt wary but reasonably confident at the same time, I did work at a  small boat yard as a teenager, so had some experience of boats, but I was a notice, a newbie!

We had crossed Barton Broad, the sun was out it was glorious, Mandy and our old dog Amber were sitting at the rear, Amber was watching the ducks, I suddenly heard a big splash and Mandy screamed, I looked round to find I was towing the dog on her extending lead behind the boat!

My instant reaction was to put it in neutral checked nothing was around us and turned the engine off, this all happened in a split second, I managed to pull Amber towards the boat, then leaning over the back I managed to pull her onto he boat by her collar. She wasn't wearing  life jacket, my dogs do now!

The point I'm making is although she was only a dog (we loved her) and I was a novice I wanted that propeller to stop moving asap so I could rescue the dog, that was my instant reaction

[Smoggy]

And spot on that reaction was Tim, even if you are about to hit another boat you don't reverse with someone in the water behind you.

[MauriceMynah]

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. A well known and well founded expression.

The situation you put as hypothetical would be so rare as to say 1 in a 1000 would be perhaps not an unreasonable guess, if anything, I'd say even rarer than that. However, novices read this forum and that "hypothetical situation" might be both not fully understood but still stay in their mind.

It is my opinion that your post describing that situation should be edited by the mods as being potentially leading to a highly dangerous error made by a novice. I do not believe this to be an exaggeration.

If there is a "Man overboard" situation, novices should be told "First stop the engine" The rule should be first priority to the casualty. Property is expendable.

1 hour ago, RealWindmill said:

On the rare occasion the Rule Book, the "it must be done this way" book has to be ignored

Not by the novice. By definition the novice will not know what to do in an emergency. The "Rule book" is his/her only chance.

Before you agree with me and start the "we need trained skippers"...etc. we don't.   We need adequate training for the normal incidents that happen on a boating holiday, and as is proven, we already have that. We need people to take responsibility for their own safety, (we have some of that) and we need people to accept that water is dangerous and common sense should be applied at all times (we only have a little of that)

[Smoggy]

3 minutes ago, MauriceMynah said:

It is my opinion that your post describing that situation should be edited by the mods as being potentially leading to a highly dangerous error made by a novice. I do not believe this to be an exaggeration.

I'm in full agreement with you there MM.

[Vaughan]

Oh dear.

I was going to make a little post this morning, just to say that "all is quiet on the Western Front".

But it seems that hostilities have been resumed . . . . 

[RealWindmill]

Congratulations this week to the Cox and Crew of the Inshore Rescue Boat who skillfully assessed and performed an in water rescue of a person at Wroxham, evening of Nov 17th.

.........    the casualty was spotted clinging to an overhanging tree with only her head and arm visible. The rescue boat was manoeuvered bow onto the tree where two members of the crew took control of the casualty and carefully moved her while in the water to the starboard side, while the boat was reversing away from the tree.  The casualty ,who was cold shivering and showing mild signs of hypothermia was taken aboard ............

[Sam]

2 hours ago, RealWindmill said:

Congratulations this week to the Cox and Crew of the Inshore Rescue Boat who skillfully assessed and performed an in water rescue of a person at Wroxham, evening of Nov 17th.

.........    the casualty was spotted clinging to an overhanging tree with only her head and arm visible. The rescue boat was manoeuvered bow onto the tree where two members of the crew took control of the casualty and carefully moved her while in the water to the starboard side, while the boat was reversing away from the tree.  The casualty ,who was cold shivering and showing mild signs of hypothermia was taken aboard ............

Looks like she might have done the same thing again last night 

[Vaughan]

3 hours ago, RealWindmill said:

Congratulations this week to the Cox and Crew of the Inshore Rescue Boat who skillfully assessed and performed an in water rescue of a person at Wroxham, evening of Nov 17th.

.........    the casualty was spotted clinging to an overhanging tree with only her head and arm visible. The rescue boat was manoeuvered bow onto the tree where two members of the crew took control of the casualty and carefully moved her while in the water to the starboard side, while the boat was reversing away from the tree.  The casualty ,who was cold shivering and showing mild signs of hypothermia was taken aboard ............

I assume you have made your post on this thread as a statement to prove your theory. In which case perhaps you could give us the source of your quote and quote the rest of the report rather than just one paragraph?

Remembering, of course, that an inshore rescue boat is an outboard RIB and not a Broads motor cruiser.

[FairTmiddlin]

It was Hemsby Lifeboat inshore rescue craft Broads Marley Reg 9X

The aluminium boat

But the casualty was rescued before they could get there

[RealWindmill]

Yes FairTm, it was the Hemsby IRC but there were two incidents involving it. One on the night of the 16th and one last night 21st, possibly the same victim involved due to the similar circumstances.

Last night she was recovered before the boat attended, however on the 16th the boat recovery was as described.

 

If it was the same person entering the water then hopefully she will be able to get all the help and support from the services needed and gets through troubled times.

[Vaughan]

I have been reading back over this thread this morning, as the things we were saying at the time of the two fatal propellor accidents in and near Yarmouth are very interesting.

Now that the Coroner's Court verdict has been put in the public domain by the BBC and this morning, by the EDP, I have no wish to re-open the discussion;    but I hope Andrew, who was himself a trial run instructor for many years, will not mind me quoting this :

On 28/09/2020 at 00:05, Wussername said:

How can anyone, any trial run driver, or indeed an on board training skipper of undeniable foresight foresee all eventualities.

We have naturally offered the forum's sincere condolences to the family and friends of the bereaved in these two accidents but I would also like to offer them to the instructors who gave the trial run on those two boats.

They will have been asking themselves "Could I have done it better?" and "Was there anything else I ought to have told them?"  I would say to them "No, there was not" but I also know that those thoughts will stay with them forever.

 

[MauriceMynah]

The fatality was a total tragedy, an ill wind that blew no good whatsoever. I hope the lad who did the pushing gets a great deal of support. He will be regretting the horseplay for many years to come, probably as many as he has got.

People have been pushing other people into the water for as long as there have been both people...and water. Whenever it has resulted in injury or worse, there has been the backlash shouts of "It shouldn't be allowed". Please be assured, it will carry on "allowed" or not Sooner or later it will result in another tragedy, we all know that. It is inevitable and there is not a thing anybody can do about it.

We can advise, we can warn we could even call for enforcing backup, but it will still happen. It is something we will just have to live with.