Implications

[Guest]

This from the Competitions & Markets Authority a branch of .Gov

Copied from East Coast Boating News

Good News for Boat Owners who have lost out through lockdown. Following clarification of legislation from the Competition and Markets Authority, a major South-Coast marina operator has been told they must reimburse their berth holders for periods where they have not been able to access their vessels. A group claim against the berthing operator, which has yet to be named publicly, but have been named on other boating social media, is reported to have been upheld and have been instructed to refund their berth holders accordingly. The berth holders successfully argued that their agreement with the operator had been in force prior to the announcement of the initial Coronavirus lockdown. The operator had written to them in June 2020, informing them that they would receive no refund, arguing that the restrictions were 'beyond their control.' This was subsequently found unfair under Section 2 of the Consumer Rights Act 2015. To date several Marina Operators have offered favorable refund and loyalty payments, with by far the best deal East Coast Boating has seen, proposed by MDL Marina's earlier in the year (13th May 2020), Meanwhile the Canal and Rivers Trust extended annual toll licenses to reflect the period of the initial lockdown. When a person operates a private vessel under a license or toll, they form a contract with the operator which entitles them to operate their craft under the terms of that license. Likewise when a berthing agreement is made, it assumes free access and use - yet any restrictions placed upon those private owners as a result of regulation, does not absolve those Authorities and Operators from fulfilling the terms of their contracts, and therefore they are deemed to have become 'frustrated'. Coronavirus legislation does not absolve business owners from fulfilling these contracts therefore offering at least partial refunds to clients for the services they have not received has been deemed reasonable - and this has been demonstrated by some of the UK's larger operators. The CMA view is also likely to apply to Licensing Authorities. The CMA state; ' if the service that can be provided would be radically different to what was agreed, for example, because lockdown laws or other restrictions would prevent key parts of the contract from being performed, then in most cases consumers should be entitled to a refund.'

[Ray]

Interesting but as far as The Norfolk Broads are concerned it's complicated! Our marinas are probably struggling enough without having to give refunds. I would decline one if offered personally.

If it somehow was applied to tolls, although I don't know if it could, then surely the BA would simply apply higher increases in the future to recoup.

Just my opinion, I don't have a specific definite answer.

[ExSurveyor]

How many of us renewed our mooring agreements on the 1st April in the full knowledge that access would not be available.

[ChrisB]

In life you can be absolutely in the right! But it can prove to be equally wrong!

I agree with Ray, I would not want my money back. Good ongoing relations with the marina are more important.

After Judith's first and very invasive cancer operation the marina approached me to say a berth had become available where it was possible to park the car within a few feet of the boat.  It really made life much easier in those first few months. 

 

 

[Vaughan]

Another example of unclear legislation being open to interpretation!

Personally, I want the yard that moors and cares for my boat to be still in business when all this is over and I can use it again.  I also want the Broads to still be fully open to navigation, because my river toll has helped the BA to maintain it that way.

So I don't care what the litigation lawyers may say : I have no intention whatever of seeking a refund, from either the boatyard or the BA.

Having said that and reading between the lines, this may be a tactical moment for the BA to clamber down off their fence and declare that you may navigate the Broads in your boat.  Provided of course, that you personally have met all the other guidelines about getting to your boat!

[Meantime]

3 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

Having said that and reading between the lines, this may be a tactical moment for the BA to clamber down off their fence and declare that you may navigate the Broads in your boat.  Provided of course, that you personally have met all the other guidelines about getting to your boat!

I particularly like the last paragraph. I would go slightly further and say that whilst I also wouldn't pursue a refund from my marina for the time that I couldn't access the boat, it is also probably about time that marinas stop acting as surrogate enforcement agencies, especially when as has been demonstrated on various threads on this forum, the legislation is complex and far from clear for the laymen.

Marinas should trust their paying clients to act within the confines of the law at the time and allow access to their clients boats, relying on their clients to abide by all the restrictions in place at the time. During the early stages of the first lock down day boating was plainly not allowed and marinas were told to close.

This time around the National restrictions are different and continuing to refuse access to boats is a restriction over and above that required by law, that in my opinion is a totally different case to the first lock down. 

[Poppy]

6 minutes ago, Meantime said:

I particularly like the last paragraph. I would go slightly further and say that whilst I also wouldn't pursue a refund from my marina for the time that I couldn't access the boat, it is also probably about time that marinas stop acting as surrogate enforcement agencies, especially when as has been demonstrated on various threads on this forum, the legislation is complex and far from clear for the laymen.

Marinas should trust their paying clients to act within the confines of the law at the time and allow access to their clients boats, relying on their clients to abide by all the restrictions in place at the time. During the early stages of the first lock down day boating was plainly not allowed and marinas were told to close.

This time around the National restrictions are different and continuing to refuse access to boats is a restriction over and above that required by law, that in my opinion is a totally different case to the first lock down. 

Many seem entirely unable to get their heads around the fact that this is not 'lockdown 1' , and that the regulations differ in many respects.  If you wish to adhere to the rules that han ofer ftom the firts time, then that's up to you, but be aware that you may be wrong in what you claim to be the current situation.

[Guest]

I personally would not want a refund for mooring fees or licence as the pandemic is not the fault of the marina operators or the BA, if its in the water - you pay.

[annv]

yes you get a refund then when the yard goes bust and turned into housing what will you do then, i would argue that they have been supplying a service in looking after your boat while it is moored there.John

[CambridgeCabby]

Paid our mooring fees in full realisation of current situation , am I entitled to a partial refund ? IMHO no , even though we haven’t been able to use the boat as much as we would wish , this in fact means Cerise Lady has spent more time on her home mooring than usual 

[Poppy]

I figure that I have to keep the boat somewhere ......

Tolls however, I' feel I've been paying for something I've been unable to use.

[MauriceMynah]

1 hour ago, Poppy said:

If you wish to adhere to the rules that han ofer ftom the firts time, then that's up to you,

Couldn't have put it clearer myself.

Sorry Poppy, couldn't resist. :-)

[Islander]

This is from JP’s October Broads Briefing .

We have been inundated by calls from owners seeking answers and it has been very frustrating that we are unable to pass on any specific guidance. Instead we have been instructed to remind boaters of the need to digest the Government guidance on travel and overnight stays if they are considering going out on their boat.

Please note the last sentence. The BA are not preventing us from using our boats. It’s up to the individual to make the decision. Personally we won’t be going anywhere in either boat, nor looking for any refunds for toll or moorings. I just hope the BA opt for one of the more reasonable increases to the toll later this month.

Colin 

[floydraser]

Marina owners did whatever they did to conform to the rules/guidance and help stop the virus, not to rip anyone off. It wouldn't be fair to bring in any kind of retrospective "penalty". Anyway, as has been suggested regarding tolls, they would recoup their losses with higher chargers in the future.

That said I would hope the better marinas would express their gratitude towards their loyal customers in some small way; I prefer red wine in my hamper please Sam.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, annv said:

yes you get a refund then when the yard goes bust and turned into housing what will you do then, i would argue that they have been supplying a service in looking after your boat while it is moored there.John

Re-read my post I said I would NOT request a refund!

[rightsaidfred]

Looking at the majority verdict it is pleasing to see common sense and decency are the order of the day.

Fred 

[Cheesey69]

I pay my marina to keep my boat safe. And that’s what they have done. 
The Tolls? Different question as I don’t think the BA have performed well in lockdown 2

[rightsaidfred]

10 minutes ago, Cheesey69 said:

I pay my marina to keep my boat safe. And that’s what they have done. 
The Tolls? Different question as I don’t think the BA have performed well in lockdown 2

Not sure what more they could have done in maintaining the system, as for guidance I didnt ask for or look to the BA to tell me what I should or shouldnt do, for me that was self evident from government announcements.

Fred

 

[Cheesey69]

5 hours ago, rightsaidfred said:

Not sure what more they could have done in maintaining the system, as for guidance I didnt ask for or look to the BA to tell me what I should or shouldnt do, for me that was self evident from government announcements.

Fred

 

At the risk of digging it up, what was "self evident" from the government announcements?

I'll wait.

[rightsaidfred]

3 minutes ago, Cheesey69 said:

At the risk of digging it up, what was "self evident" from the government announcements?

I'll wait.

The fact I shouldnt make unnecessary journeys outside my locality.

Fred

[Cheesey69]

Any journey that ends in recreation isn't classed as unnecessary, no matter how long. So that never was said.

Boris actually encouraged exercise and recreation and in fact, no limits was imposed for travel.

Local journeys. This bits is a carry over from lockdown 1.

Lockdown 1 rules was superseded by new legislation for lockdown 2. A fact that was not made widely known.

This is the bit BA could have handled better.

Others, including my own agency, printed a copy of the new rules and listen to Boris carefully when he said this was not going to be the same.   

[Meantime]

40 minutes ago, rightsaidfred said:

The fact I shouldnt make unnecessary journeys outside my locality.

Fred

Which begs the question what is a locality, if indeed that was actually said, which I believe it wasn't. The actual advice, backed up by the law was to stay at home unless you had a reasonable excuse to be outside your home. There then followed a list of 10 things that would be considered reasonable excuse, without any distance or time limit or even quantity. Yes you could go out and exercise more than once per day.

No one had to leave their home for a week or two if they so desired, but likewise those who were abiding by the law, but leaving home with a reasonable excuse should not be frowned upon.  

Personal choice within the bounds of the law still counts for something in this country I hope.

[rightsaidfred]

7 minutes ago, Meantime said:

Which begs the question what is a locality, if indeed that was actually said, which I believe it wasn't. The actual advice, backed up by the law was to stay at home unless you had a reasonable excuse to be outside your home. There then followed a list of 10 things that would be considered reasonable excuse, without any distance or time limit or even quantity. Yes you could go out and exercise more than once per day.

No one had to leave their home for a week or two if they so desired, but likewise those who were abiding by the law, but leaving home with a reasonable excuse should not be frowned upon.  

Personal choice within the bounds of the law still counts for something in this country I hope.

For me locality is quite easy to define as is reasonable, I dont need to justify my actions to myself or others.

Fred

[floydraser]

Here's a challenge: see if you can weedle this argument into the Great Canal Journeys thread without me noticing....

[BroadAmbition]

There won't be any expectation or demand from this quarter with regards to obtaining a refund from our mooring owners (Richo's) or to the Ba re tolls.

However I would like the Ba to clear up the mess regarding advice and guidelines and be sensible when discussing next years tolls, imho there should be a minimal increase at best or at worst one just matching the rate of inflation and no more, that'd be a first

Griff