Berney Arms Update

[NorfolkNog]

On a slightly different tack many thanks to BGB for posting the video. 

I'm sure that I saw a video on YouTube a while back that included an interview with Tracy. I can't find it now. It might have been about the station rather than the pub but Tracy was definitely in it. I'd love to find it again. 

[RS2021]

14 hours ago, grendel said:

the HV supply cable is 3c.0225 square inches, for the uninitiated this is around 15mm2, the smallest HV cable in use today is generally is a 95mm square conductor, so a maximum current of around 80A (at HV) this would convert to around 88kW maximum on that cable, minus any losses inherent on such a long run of cable. (the voltage at the far end can be adjusted at the transformer, but the resistance of the cable will drop the maximum supplied at the far end

80A at 11kV should be good for around 1.5MW. If you HV system is 6.6kV then that should do almost 1MW. I take your point on volt drop etc.

[grendel]

RS2021, I dropped a zero, it should be 880kVA total (80x11000) to get 1.5MVA you would be pushing 160A through the cable and it would be glowing like an old fashioned electric fire. Still with 2 pumping stations on line on that circuit a fair proportion of the available output will be used (i bet the light flicker when those pumps start up)

[RS2021]

8 hours ago, grendel said:

RS2021, I dropped a zero, it should be 880kVA total (80x11000) to get 1.5MVA you would be pushing 160A through the cable and it would be glowing like an old fashioned electric fire. Still with 2 pumping stations on line on that circuit a fair proportion of the available output will be used (i bet the light flicker when those pumps start up)

I presume being in a rural location, the 3c cable is only connected to a single phase overhead line at some point. Depending how long these lines are it may not be too much trouble to upgrade to 3 phase and get up to 1.5MW. I'm sure the pumping stations would be more efficient at 3 phase.

I'm in an urban location and there used to be a 25MW arc furnace on the same network as us melting scrap metal to make into shot. To make sure the metal was molten for the start of shift in the morning, the started the melt at around 9.00pm the pervious evening. Lots of flicker just as you are turning your lights on and settling down to watch TV!

[JennyMorgan]

I'm no technical wizard, understatement of the year, but if in upgrading to three phase an extra line is required on the existing posts then I wonder if the authorities might not insist on the lines being laid underground, what with it being a conservation area. Has that not happened at Potter? 

[grendel]

the cable to berney arms is underground for all 4 km of its length, maybe 500m max has been overlaid with a bigger cable (presumably to repair faults, it only follows the track from the pub to the first level crossing after which it cuts straight across country to the A47 arriving to the east of the farm at the top of the track.its connected to a n overhead line running parallel with the A47 in the fields. to upgrade a feasability study would have to be done, and then for the new cable legal easements would be required from all of the landowners, which would include access rights to repair the cables, any of the above points could be sticking points to upgrading the route, we have had jobs delayed by years while the legal complications were worked out, and some were just cancelled completely over access issues.

[RS2021]

22 minutes ago, JennyMorgan said:

I'm no technical wizard, understatement of the year, but if in upgrading to three phase an extra line is required on the existing posts then I wonder if the authorities might not insist on the lines being laid underground, what with it being a conservation area. Has that not happened at Potter? 

Grendel describes the cable as 3c which at HV usually means 3 phase, but he quotes a single phase rating of A x V, rather than the 3 phase rating of A x V x sqrt3 (sorry don't know how to do the proper symbol). In rural areas 3 phase cables are commonly connected to single phase overhead lines further back in the network; but only oprated as single phase with a spare core. I presumed this was the case in this instance, but it's an assumption. If it is then the 4km cable does not need to be upgraded to 3 phase only the network it's connected to. But .0225 is old and there are many quirks in old kit. 

[NorfolkNog]

I think Hollocks should pay you two for technical consultancy 

[grendel]

due to the age of the 3c .0225 i was unable to find accurate data for its use as an HV conductor, but the current carrying capacity is the same, for the conductor size, the 80A I found was for a 3 phase conductor, not per phase (its about half the cross section  of a modern supply to a house- though at a higher voltage). there is a very high chance that over the years faults have been repaired by utilising any spare conductors in the cable (I would have to investigate the route in a far greater detail to see if there were any jointing notes on the record that might indicate this). the smallest sized HV cable I can find a rating or is 35mm2 at 170A (across 3 phases) bearing in mind that this is half the cross sectional area 80A seems around the ball park for all 3 phases, In modern cable equivalent, this cable is the size that would be used to feed a street light at normal supply voltage.

[grendel]

9 minutes ago, NorfolkNog said:

I think Hollocks should pay you two for technical consultancy 

actually, I find this an interesting theoretical problem for HV supply

[Chelsea14Ian]

Getting blood out if a stone springs to mind.

[YnysMon]

Sorry folks, but I'm confused. I know it's not an easy site to get to, and I would think twice about living there myself, but I got the impression there was at least one other building occupied nearby when we walked past Berney Arms last November (just before lockdown). I think it's called Ashtree Farm on the OS map, though it looked like it might have been divided into more than one property. There were several cars parked outside that property, plus the cars of the people who were occupying the caravan(s) on the Berney Arms site, so presumably access must be possible and services available...?

[RS2021]

1 hour ago, grendel said:

actually, I find this an interesting theoretical problem for HV supply

Me too, I really enjoy this sort of problem (or have I been in lockdown too long...) 

Seriously though, as moderator, if you think its too off topic or boring for others, just say so.

80A doesn't seen unreasonable for this size of cable, so its really a question of whether or not is is or can be run at 3 phases as that would increase the capacity from 880kW to around 1.5MW. I take your point about repairs utilising the spare core in places. If that is only in one or two places, then to overlay short sections would be cheaper than overlaying the lot, but would require a lot of study.

Another really nerdy technical alternative... You say the cable feeds some pumping stations. I presume these are used most when there is a lot of water around. So the ground would be wet which would increase its thermal resistivity and allow an enhanced rating on the cable... Western Power looked at something similar with wind in Lincolnshire. Rather than reinforce its 132kV network it assumed that the windfarms would only be operating at maximum capacity when the wind blew and the cooling effect of the wind allowed them to increase the rating of their overhead lines. Not sure if it got from a theoretical possibility to actually being operated though.

[ranworthbreeze]

I would assume that the supply to the pumping stations is 3 phase operating 3 phase motors.

[grendel]

I would assume so Alan, though they could be single phase depending upon when they were instaled, By the way RS2021, I have had it confirmed bu one of my senior designers, that the rated current is per phase, he says he works on the basis that a 50A supply can run a 1MVA substation. i wasnt sure how the tables quoted the ratings, as there was no footnote to qualify the values.

[Meantime]

26 minutes ago, YnysMon said:

Sorry folks, but I'm confused. I know it's not an easy site to get to, and I would think twice about living there myself, but I got the impression there was at least one other building occupied nearby when we walked past Berney Arms last November (just before lockdown). I think it's called Ashtree Farm on the OS map, though it looked like it might have been divided into more than one property. There were several cars parked outside that property, plus the cars of the people who were occupying the caravan(s) on the Berney Arms site, so presumably access must be possible and services available...?

Ashtree Farm is owned by the RSPB. There is a track leading all the way across the marshes to Ashtree Farm if you know the route, however the RSPB own part of the track and have permission from other land owners to use the rest of the track. The RSPB extends this permission to use the track to its visitors, but it is not open to the general public and there is no general public access across the first part of the tracks not owned by the RSPB.

I know the routes from Halvergate and from the Acle straight, but I do not have permission to drive on either route, although I could find my way to The Berney Inn. However there are public foot paths out there.

The last part of the track that serves Ashtree Farm also goes past The Berney Inn, but what legal rights of access they have over that land and the first part of the track is very debatable, and without guaranteed legal access I wouldn't buy a property out there.

[floydraser]

3 hours ago, YnysMon said:

Sorry folks, but I'm confused. I know it's not an easy site to get to, and I would think twice about living there myself, but I got the impression there was at least one other building occupied nearby when we walked past Berney Arms last November (just before lockdown). I think it's called Ashtree Farm on the OS map, though it looked like it might have been divided into more than one property. There were several cars parked outside that property, plus the cars of the people who were occupying the caravan(s) on the Berney Arms site, so presumably access must be possible and services available...?

Me too. According to the video on this thread, it's been a guest house so surely there must have been access, and since that time subsequent landowner's must have been aware of the need to access the pub. I guess it's in the legal pack somewhere.

And what are the sewerage arrangements? No, not my specialist subject!Would access be needed to empty a holding tank?

[Vaughan]

18 minutes ago, floydraser said:

And what are the sewerage arrangements? No, not my specialist subject!Would access be needed to empty a holding tank?

Oi reckun that'll hev one 'er them there sceptical tanks.

[Meantime]

14 minutes ago, floydraser said:

Me too. According to the video on this thread, it's been a guest house so surely there must have been access, and since that time subsequent landowner's must have been aware of the need to access the pub. I guess it's in the legal pack somewhere.

And what are the sewerage arrangements? No, not my specialist subject!Would access be needed to empty a holding tank?

It has access, it has it's own moorings and permitted access to use the track to The Berney Arms station. However it is not on a public road and therefore there is no public road access. 

Sewage always used to be a cesspit. No mains water, only a well which is not drinking quality. No rubbish collection and I'm pretty sure no mail delivery. I think you might struggle with Uber eats or amazon deliveries out there. You will however not get a discount from your council tax for having to dispose of your own rubbish!

[JennyMorgan]

Re vehicular access over a footpath, it really is confusing, having been there, done that and earned several t-shirts. There is a limit as to how many properties can be accessed by a car off a single track, seemingly irrespective of length for one thing, I believe that it's five.  Distance from the highway to a property is another factor. A footpath is just that, a footpath and a landowner is not obliged to grant consent unless it's already an established right. Not to say that the RSPB wouldn't say no to a generous donation! Yes, it will all be in the legal pack but I don't believe that Mr Horrocks can take anything for granted. My feeling is that he is effectively landlocked when it comes to access on wheels.

[Meantime]

1 minute ago, JennyMorgan said:

Re vehicular access over a footpath, it really is confusing, having been there, done that and earned several t-shirts. There is a limit as to how many properties can be accessed by a car off a single track, seemingly irrespective of length for one thing, I believe that it's five.  Distance from the highway to a property is another factor. A footpath is just that, a footpath and a landowner is not obliged to grant consent unless it's already an established right. Not to say that the RSPB wouldn't say no to a generous donation! Yes, it will all be in the legal pack but I don't believe that Mr Horrocks can take anything for granted. My feeling is that he is effectively landlocked. 

There is footpath access via The Weavers Way and not even a tractor would get all the way along that. It is purely a footpath with stiles. The tracks that lead all the way to the RSPB and go past the Berney Arms are gravel roads and private and cross more than one land owners property. There are private road signs on both the ways in that I know. There are many gates along the way to keep live stock in their allocated field. You will note in one of my earlier pictures there is even a gate next to a private road sign even though there is a level crossing gate a 100 yds further on. The level crossing gates are Network Rails and there for safety. The first gate is the land owners to exert his ownership of the land. The RSPB are not the only parties that need to be negotiated with, They only own the last part along the edge of Breydon past The Berney Arms, but you can bet they do have covenants or negotiated rights of access across the other land owners property.

It's actually worth standing back and pointing out at this point that the EDP article referred to a planning application being prepared. None has been submitted yet that I can see on the BA portal. If it was the 1st April I'd have paid it no attention.

[Meantime]

The picture below shows the access off The Acle straight. Note the open gate and the White private road sign on the post, then a 100 yards later two gates for the level crossing. The owner of that farm could close the first gate at any time. That is three gates you have to open and close within the first couple of hundred yards of leaving the Acle straight. There are many more gates used to control the movements of livestock. Whether they are left open or closed at any given time is up to the farmers and depending on where the animals are at the time.

[NorfolkNog]

42 minutes ago, JennyMorgan said:

say no to a generous donation!

Generous? Never! 

[JennyMorgan]

So Mr Horrocks bought a pup then !

[Meantime]

1 hour ago, JennyMorgan said:

So Mr Horrocks bought a pup then !

Not really, he just got greedy. When he was charging 20K rent for a seasonal pub, that was more than 10% return on investment. Good money whilst it lasted. Now bringing the rent down to 10k per year would have kept his tenants, and the pub open and still provided more than 5% return on investment. I cannot remember the last time I found interest rates on savings anywhere close to that.

A reasonable rent would have meant an open pub and an appreciating asset to sell in the future with the rent providing better returns than the same money sitting in a bank.

The Berney Arms was never going to be a Bridge Inn, New Inn or Maltsters, but then it didn't have the same price tag. It just needed a reasonable landlord to find a couple who were not greedy, liked the location and were happy to earn enough to live on in an idylic spot. It got half the combination, shame about the other half!