The Latest Amended Broads Authority Guidance

[Meantime]

10 minutes ago, MauriceMynah said:

Whilst I know that the BA does not have "Power of enforcement", it does have the authority to advise people disregarding the rules, and it does have the authority to contact Broadsbeat if said advice is ignored. 

An interesting point, but I would suggest they have no more power than you or I to advise someone they are breaking the rules. unless it's a Broads Authority byelaw. If I was walking into my local boat hire company and was stopped by a Policeman and asked why I was there and where I had travelled from, I would have to comply to their request. I think you can see where I'm heading with this, but let's keep it positive. Things are slowly moving in the right direction. Some people will have sour grapes that they cannot travel to their boat, whilst others appear to be having fun in day boats, but it's all a sign that slowly, ever so slowly things are starting to reopen and that the time will come when everyone can revisit their boats, or travel from further afield to hire a boat.

[Paladin]

20 minutes ago, Meantime said:

An interesting point, but I would suggest they have no more power than you or I to advise someone they are breaking the rules. unless it's a Broads Authority byelaw. If I was walking into my local boat hire company and was stopped by a Policeman and asked why I was there and where I had travelled from, I would have to comply to their request. I think you can see where I'm heading with this, but let's keep it positive. Things are slowly moving in the right direction. Some people will have sour grapes that they cannot travel to their boat, whilst others appear to be having fun in day boats, but it's all a sign that slowly, ever so slowly things are starting to reopen and that the time will come when everyone can revisit their boats, or travel from further afield to hire a boat.

No, there is no such power given under the covid regulations. Nor is there a requirement to give your name and address. If you were genuinely suspected of committing an offence and you refused to give your name and address, then an officer could, depending on the circumstances, arrest you, but he would have to have very good grounds for so doing. Simply refusing to give your details is not sufficient grounds, though.

[JennyMorgan]

1 hour ago, MauriceMynah said:

Whilst I know that the BA does not have "Power of enforcement", it does have the authority to advise people disregarding the rules, and it does have the authority to contact Broadsbeat if said advice is ignored. 

Indeed it has but in doing so it does appear to have put its own spin on HMG's rules and regulations. Not only that but it also appears that the BA is intent on giving the impression that it does have 'police' powers in respect of Covid 19. Some might argue that that is good whilst others might argue that it is a further case of mission creep, and who knows where that will end? Agreed, it could all be well intended but then . . . . . . . . . . . 

[Andrewcook]

 Hi Jenny Morgan as I'm a Old hand  upon coming to the Norfolk Broads can you put me in the right direction on this. Question. As to then where called River Inspector' I believe at that Time they had Powers to pulling you up for Speeding or any other complaint's plus if you got into any difficulty s with your Boat . As to Rangers they are called now do they still have those powers or more? Like the the Police who we do see when they are a float on  the Broads now again. 

[JennyMorgan]

Hi Andrew, thank you for your question. It's all in here: 

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukla/2009/1/contents/enacted

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/4/contents

Broads Beat are the Police proper.

Whilst out on the water the Broads Rangers are similar to the River Inspectors of old but are not governed by the same legislation. 

What has changed is that the Broads Authority is a very different organisation to the old River Commissioners, not only in regards to legislation but also in the ethos at the top. 

Fortunately there are Rangers today who would have made very good River Inspectors. However, the legislation has changed as has the Executive.

[Meantime]

We seem to have diverted off at a slight tangent, but to bring the topic back on track again and back to the subject of the BA latest guidance it would seem that some aspects of the underlying Government legislation has been over looked.

The current Corona Virus restrictions in places are backed up by The Health Protection Regulations 2020, which can be found on the link below,

Corona Virus Legislation 2020

Those regulations are due to expire at the end of 31st March, although we can safely say they will be extended. They have been amended to take into account the changes that occurred on the 8th March. Leaving aside the semantics of the fact that there is still no legal definition of "stay local" in the regulations, it in some cases becomes irrelevant when you consider Schedule 3A of the regulations which lists the types of business that must stay closed and the exceptions for those that can open. The updated for the 8th March changes copy can be found on the link below,

Schedule 3A

Looking down near the bottom of the list I can see (cc) carpet stores, which would explain why it is irrelevant how close I live to my local carpet shop, it has to remain closed. (ee) car washes (except for automatic car washes) and stuck right between the two (dd) showrooms and other premises, including outdoor areas, used for the sale or hire of caravans, boats or any vehicle which can be propelled by mechanical means. So it looks like you cannot hire or go and buy a new caravan for now.

So if anyone is hiring boats at the moment, then it looks like how far the customer travels is largely irrelevant. 

Please don't turn this into a BA knocking session, because that is not the aim of this post, but have I just highlighted the issues with other agencies interpreting the Government legislation? One assumes that the BA have sought advice from Defra, who in turn one assumes has legal people who have researched the legislation, so who is right and has the right advice. The Government, Defra, or the BA. I wonder if it would be a defense if fined under the Corona Virus legislation.

If I own a business, should I be following the Government legislation, Defra, BMF or the BA? 

I would agree that as recreation people should be able to use their own boat, if local, and even with one other person if it is open aired, but does the Government legislation actually allow for boat hire yards to be open to the public yet? Genuine question, because it is more than likely I've overlooked a sub clause or exemption, even if I cannot see one, not for the want of trying.

[BroadsAuthority]

1 minute ago, Meantime said:

We seem to have diverted off at a slight tangent, but to bring the topic back on track again and back to the subject of the BA latest guidance it would seem that some aspects of the underlying Government legislation has been over looked.

The current Corona Virus restrictions in places are backed up by The Health Protection Regulations 2020, which can be found on the link below,

Corona Virus Legislation 2020

Those regulations are due to expire at the end of 31st March, although we can safely say they will be extended. They have been amended to take into account the changes that occurred on the 8th March. Leaving aside the semantics of the fact that there is still no legal definition of "stay local" in the regulations, it in some cases becomes irrelevant when you consider Schedule 3A of the regulations which lists the types of business that must stay closed and the exceptions for those that can open. The updated for the 8th March changes copy can be found on the link below,

Schedule 3A

Looking down near the bottom of the list I can see (cc) carpet stores, which would explain why it is irrelevant how close I live to my local carpet shop, it has to remain closed. (ee) car washes (except for automatic car washes) and stuck right between the two (dd) showrooms and other premises, including outdoor areas, used for the sale or hire of caravans, boats or any vehicle which can be propelled by mechanical means. So it looks like you cannot hire or go and buy a new caravan for now.

So if anyone is hiring boats at the moment, then it looks like how far the customer travels is largely irrelevant. 

Please don't turn this into a BA knocking session, because that is not the aim of this post, but have I just highlighted the issues with other agencies interpreting the Government legislation? One assumes that the BA have sought advice from Defra, who in turn one assumes has legal people who have researched the legislation, so who is right and has the right advice. The Government, Defra, or the BA. I wonder if it would be a defense if fined under the Corona Virus legislation.

If I own a business, should I be following the Government legislation, Defra, BMF or the BA? 

I would agree that as recreation people should be able to use their own boat, if local, and even with one other person if it is open aired, but does the Government legislation actually allow for boat hire yards to be open to the public yet? Genuine question, because it is more than likely I've overlooked a sub clause or exemption, even if I cannot see one, not for the want of trying.

Hi Meantime,

Although there are still details that need to be ironed out, all of the new information on our site regarding the COVID-19 roadmap has come directly from DEFRA via email discussions between the BA/EA/CRT/BM and DEFRA officials.

I believe that DEFRA officials are still in the process of clarifying a few things with the Cabinet Office to refine the information further, and any changes will be communicated on our website as before.

Tom

[Meantime]

1 minute ago, BroadsAuthority said:

Hi Meantime,

Although there are still details that need to be ironed out, all of the new information on our site regarding the COVID-19 roadmap has come directly from DEFRA via email discussions between the BA/EA/CRT/BM and DEFRA officials.

I believe that DEFRA officials are still in the process of clarifying a few things with the Cabinet Office to refine the information further, and any changes will be communicated on our website as before.

Tom

Hi Tom,

Thanks for explaining the process and where the information has come from, as I said it is not a dig at the BA, but the information does seem to be in contradiction to the legislation as it stands currently, all very confusing.

[BroadsAuthority]

2 minutes ago, Meantime said:

Hi Tom,

Thanks for explaining the process and where the information has come from, as I said it is not a dig at the BA, but the information does seem to be in contradiction to the legislation as it stands currently, all very confusing.

Thanks Meantime, I fully appreciate and understand your (and others) comments in this thread.

It's correct that some of what we have been told to relay by DEFRA, particularly around the hire of open-topped boats from 8 March, is somewhat at odds with the legislation about those businesses being required to be closed at the moment. We and others have raised our concerns with them about this and as far as I am aware they are seeking to iron it out with the Cabinet Office at the moment.

Interestingly in the EDP article it seems that there hasn't been much appetite for it anyway due to the frankly atrocious weather.

All the best

Tom

[BroadAmbition]

Tom - thanks for the explanation.

However it would be much easier if the Ba simply followed the guidelines like the rest of do and stopped confusing and muddying the waters - pun intended 

Griff

[grendel]

I think that the problem is that the BA  are trying to follow guidelines that are being updated maybe even several times a day, by the time  guidelines are being published in broad strokes, the fine detail may be somewhat different, thus the government may have moved forward from those guidelines, and this may have been communicated out to the various governmental departments, eg DEFRA. so before we beat anyone over the head for the different messages we are receiving, we have to wonder at the work that is being put in behind the scenes to keep those messages up to date with the current iteration of the legislation, the BA have been working hard with DEFRA to keep the information for us boaters up to date, we have to thank them for all the hard work they have put in to keep us informed.

the original government guidelines were issued several days ago now, yet I have talked to someone that has seen the updates issued out, up to seven updates in a day, there are people who are being kept very busy working on this.

we must just be patient while the information is disseminated down to us, I know we all wish to be back on our boats (or any boat) but we also must remember to remain safe and follow the guidelines. We must firstly protect each other.

 

[MauriceMynah]

I have come to the conclusion that I am a natural genius.

I know what is meant by "local", I understand the concept of "unnecessary journeys", I even know what is meant by "Essential".

I need the Government to tell me what they want my to do, but I don't really need them to dot the "I's" or cross the "T's". I understand and I comply.

Why do so many people appear to have so many problems with these concepts?

[Cheesey69]

Because these are suggestions, a bit like “Reduce your salt intake”

Good idea to follow them, but it’s only a suggestion 

When the law says something that’s what what you obey because it’s the law. 

Problem is when the two get mixed up. 
That’s why we don’t live in police state. 

[Cheesey69]

Must should and shall have a big part in legislation and a PM’s speech. 
you must stay local generally the law

you should stay local is advise

[PaulN]

I shall certainly be using our boat and staying on board from the 12th April if the government road-map do not change.

I shall fully comply with the government road-map for easing the lockdown and will have copies onboard should anyone wish to challenge me

 https://www.gov.uk/government/news/prime-minister-sets-out-roadmap-to-cautiously-ease-lockdown-restrictions 

Looking forward to getting back to the broads so very much.

[JennyMorgan]

On 10/03/2021 at 19:17, Andrewcook said:

 Hi Jenny Morgan as I'm a Old hand  upon coming to the Norfolk Broads can you put me in the right direction on this. Question. As to then where called River Inspector' I believe at that Time they had Powers to pulling you up for Speeding or any other complaint's plus if you got into any difficulty s with your Boat . As to Rangers they are called now do they still have those powers or more? Like the the Police who we do see when they are a float on  the Broads now again. 

Hello again, Andrew. I gave you some links that I hope that you have had time to read and inwardly digest in detail. A few further thoughts from myself.

What should be clear is that 2009 legislation increased ten fold or so the powers of the Broads Rangers over their predecessors, due mainly to the changes which went through parliament back then. The job fundamentally changed with the new Act.

All the safety issues, Hazardous boat check, the right to enter land to check for dangerous vessels, the Rangers can issue 28 day producers for BSC, Insurance, tolls etc, all of which once issued must be complied with in law, and last but by no mean least all the byelaws that came in with the Adjacent Water clauses. No, I don't agree with that last one! Mustn't forget the Countryside legislation that the Rangers now have to enforce.

In comparison to today's Rangers, the old Inspectors had an easy life. The Inspectors duties were based on the requirements of a harbour authority, that was it. They wore smart uniforms, you didn't see them cutting the grass or shoveling barrow loads of the dreaded crushed concrete alongside 24hr moorings. Us locals see today's Rangers badgering away during the winter months, never saw the Inspectors doing that.  

Back in the day we, the great unwashed, would fraternize with the Inspectors, first name terms, pint or three at lunchtime in the bar at Coldham Hall for example. Dear old Jack Hunt was one whom who enjoyed being a friend to all. Mind you, he did his job and did it well. Charlie Collier, another Inspector, a Broadlander through and through. Lived in a house overlooking the Waveney, raced a Broads sailing cruiser. He's buried at Burgh St Peter, his grave stone features a picture of him sailing his boat.  A hugely respected and well liked man, the likes of whom I personally miss at Yare House, especially in the upper echelons of power.

Another link here, this time to an article written by Chris Groves, Charlie Collier's successor. This outlines some of the changes. I knew Chris well, an insider made good, he became a born again Broadlander of the highest calibre, a fund of dependable information. A pair of indisputable Gentlemen of the Rhond, I was privileged to be able to call them both friends. More than once Chris took the Authority to task, I remember him well!

https://www.wisearchive.co.uk/story/water-way-life-2016/

[JennyMorgan]

I think that I should have mentioned that Chris Groves was NRA, National Rivers Authority, not the Broads Authority. Chris, like the first CEO of the Authority, was welcomed and respected. Both, like Charles Collier, understood the Broads and the unique character of the area, that the Broads was the Broads, not 'lakes known as Broads', or, heaven forbit, no I won't dare mention it! Changes are inevitable, but why destroy what was good?

[Meantime]

Interesting update from The Broads Authority, still seems to muddy the waters to me though, especially the link to the roadmap, which could do with a proof read.

Latest Latest Latest Updated Guidance

[JennyMorgan]

I was amused to read that we should use our boats outdoors!

"Private boating permitted for recreation for a single household or bubble (if vessel is enclosed), or for 6 people / 2 households per boat (if vessel is open air, provided it is outdoors and social distancing can be maintained between people from different households)."

[grendel]

Really what we are seeing is updated information arriving to us as it is filtered down to the Broads Authority from above, at the end of the day, all that matters is that details are being clarified as to what we can and cannot do.

my guess is that as loopholes are identified and posted around social media DEFRA is clarifying the guidance to the BA, RYA and CRT.

So my advice is that if you discover a loophole that lets you use your boat before others then keep quiet about it, as if you post it on social media, then DEFRA will go away and clarify the advice to close the loophole. (dont say i didnt warn you).

[grendel]

7 hours ago, JennyMorgan said:

I was amused to read that we should use our boats outdoors!

"Private boating permitted for recreation for a single household or bubble (if vessel is enclosed), or for 6 people / 2 households per boat (if vessel is open air, provided it is outdoors and social distancing can be maintained between people from different households)."

Thats just to make sure you dont have a quick holiday in your cruiser in the local swimming baths, while they are shut to the public.

[RS2021]

10 minutes ago, JennyMorgan said:

I was amused to read that we should use our boats outdoors!

"Private boating permitted for recreation for a single household or bubble (if vessel is enclosed), or for 6 people / 2 households per boat (if vessel is open air, provided it is outdoors and social distancing can be maintained between people from different households)."

Tough if you boat is in a wet shed then...

[PaulN]

1 hour ago, JennyMorgan said:

I was amused to read that we should use our boats outdoors!

"Private boating permitted for recreation for a single household or bubble (if vessel is enclosed), or for 6 people / 2 households per boat (if vessel is open air, provided it is outdoors and social distancing can be maintained between people from different households)."

So people in wet sheds wont be able to go on board presumably! 

[marshman]

For what its worth I would interpret a wet shed as "open air" as generally at least, one end would be open to the elements. If you are fortunate to be able to close it up completely, just open the doors!!!!

[Paladin]

1 hour ago, PaulN said:

So people in wet sheds wont be able to go on board presumably! 

 

1 hour ago, marshman said:

For what its worth I would interpret a wet shed as "open air" as generally at least, one end would be open to the elements. If you are fortunate to be able to close it up completely, just open the doors!!!!

Sorry, but with reference to exercise and recreation, the wording of the legislation, regarding leaving home is:

(c) to take exercise outside...

(d) to visit a public outdoor place for the purposes of open air recreation...

If you look at the Interpretation section of the regulations:

“public outdoor place” means an outdoor place to which the public have, or are permitted, access (whether on payment or otherwise) and includes—

(a) land laid out as a public garden or used for the purpose of recreation by members of the public;

(b) land which is “open country” as defined in section 59(2) of the National Parks and Access to the Countryside Act 1949 F30, as read with section 16 of the Countryside Act 1968;

(c) land which is “access land” for the purposes of Part 1 of the Countryside and Rights of Way Act 2000 F32 (see section 1(1) of that Act);

(d) any highway to which the public has access;

(e) Crown land to which the public has access;

So a private wet shed is neither ‘outside’ nor is it a ‘public outdoor place’.