Boat Safety

[Vaughan]

32 minutes ago, grendel said:

I know some boats have hydraulic steering.

You pretty well have to have hydraulic steering for dual station controls.   Some old boats have mechanical dual steering but this usually involves contraptions with a lot of bicycle chain!

If you had hydraulic controls then both control levers could be worked independently and concurrently, unless electronic solenoid valves were installed, similar to the hydraulic bow thruster.

Again, sure, it can be done.

Would it improve safety in the circumstances we are talking about?   In my opinion, almost certainly not.  you must also factor in hydraulic leaks.  Hydraulic steering is not, in fact, particularly reliable.  It is even subject to failure in hot temperatures of direct sunlight.  Vis : the flying bridge of a dual control boat.

[Vaughan]

5 minutes ago, FlyingFortress said:

Our member who has extensive experience of running hire fleets has provided a workable solution.

Yes, but he has also stated his reservations about it.

[Meantime]

5 minutes ago, FlyingFortress said:

A key recommendation has been made to improve the change over protocols on dual steer Hire boats and has not been accepted by The AIWA.

Our member who has extensive experience of running hire fleets has provided a workable solution.

Now I'm fully aware that the purpose of the MAIB report is not to lay blame and it cannot be used in any court case involving this particular incident, however I wonder what the situation is now that a recommendation has been made, if it is ignored and a similar incident occurs? I think the AIWA is making a statement that doesn't sit very comfortably!

[FlyingFortress]

Vaughan 

I have to dispute your statement that hydraulic steering is not particularly reliable.

In 21 years of sea service I can recall one incident of hydraulic steering failure, burst pipe.

And in 22 years of Pilotage also one incident, failed microswitch.

These are systems that run 24/7/365 when the ship is underway.

I will add that there are dual systems on ships and there is always a procedure for alternating them so they get equal usage.

Also 30 years of boat ownership at least 25 of which I have had hydraulic steering and no incidents.

[FlyingFortress]

Meantime.

I also cannot comment on The AIWA but I will say that shipping companies ignore MAIB recommendations at their peril.

[Wussername]

1 hour ago, Meantime said:

Now I'm fully aware that the purpose of the MAIB report is not to lay blame and it cannot be used in any court case involving this particular incident, however I wonder what the situation is now that a recommendation has been made, if it is ignored and a similar incident occurs? I think the AIWA is making a statement that doesn't sit very comfortably!

The MAIB has stated that it does not have the authority to pass legislation based on its findings with regard to an incident and as far as I am aware neither does the Broads Authority.

On the 23rd May there will be a further inquest into the Yarmouth tragedy to be held at the Norwich Coroners Court

 An inquest is generally concerned with fact finding and is not a trial or fault finding process. The coroner’s court does not pass legislation.

 At the conclusion of an inquest the Coroner may decide, in certain limited circumstances, that action may need to be taken to prevent or reduce the possibility of further fatalities and send a report to any authority with power to take such action.

"the power to take such action" is not to be ignored.

Such action could impact on the hire industry and also the private sector.. 

Both sectors would be well advised to offer a constructive contribution towards such a situation with positive and reasoned suggestions.

Andrew 

[FlyingFortress]

Well stated Andrew

 

I must add to my previous post.

I have actually had steering failure on one of my boats.

A block that guided the steering cable pulled out of the wood on my wooden boat. Fixed with a big screw. 

[Vaughan]

42 minutes ago, FlyingFortress said:

I have to dispute your statement that hydraulic steering is not particularly reliable.

In 21 years of sea service I can recall one incident of hydraulic steering failure, burst pipe.

And in 22 years of Pilotage also one incident, failed microswitch.

These are systems that run 24/7/365 when the ship is underway.

I will add that there are dual systems on ships and there is always a procedure for alternating them so they get equal usage.

Also 30 years of boat ownership at least 25 of which I have had hydraulic steering and no incidents.

I suggest it is unhelpful to keep comparing these issues with what happens at sea.  The steering Telemotor systems used on a ship bear little or no comparison to something installed on the flying bridge of a boat in the basin at Potter Heigham.

You have stated more than once that you know nothing of hire boats, please therefore accept my word, that the type of steering used on inland waterways pleasure cruisers is not especially reliable, for the reasons I have given.  It is, in fact, much better installed in copper pipe than with the plastic pipe provided but that makes it an expensive installation.

I do not belittle for one moment, your knowledge and experience of the sea and ships.  Please therefore offer the same courtesy to mine, where it concerns hire boats on the Broads.

[OldBerkshireBoy]

1 hour ago, Vaughan said:

Would it improve safety in the circumstances we are talking about?   In my opinion, almost certainly not.  you must also factor in hydraulic leaks.  Hydraulic steering is not, in fact, particularly reliable.  It is even subject to failure in hot temperatures of direct sunlight.  Vis : the flying bridge of a dual control boat.

If so then problems can be overcome. To be clear Im talking new builds not retro fits.

[OldBerkshireBoy]

8 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

I suggest it is unhelpful to keep comparing these issues with what happens at sea.  The steering Telemotor systems used on a ship bear little or no comparison to something installed on the flying bridge of a boat in the basin at Potter Heigham..

Why is this, can lessons not be learned and used on smaller boats.

[FlyingFortress]

Sorry Vaughan but I am still going to dispute your statement.

All three boats I have owned have had copper pipes.

Maybe if I list which hire fleets they came from may have some bearing.

Hearts/Richardson's/Horning Pleasure Craft , Ferry Marine and Bees 

Showing my lack of knowledge once again in that I did not know that plastic piping was available.

Why on earth would anyone fit plastic piping?

No need to answer that BTW

[annv]

The Hydraulic steering on my boat has plastic pipes and although in ten years it hasn't failed/broken mechanically it did stop working on the top helm once when i left the mooring, reason i had not checked fluid level. every year it needed topping up but had discerning leak, previous boat had metal pipes and never needed topping up and never went wrong in twelve years BUT they were never used every day by inexperienced crew like a hire boat would. And like cars older models had power steering problems but more modern cars have very few problems, now we have electric steering again few problems.John

[Bytheriver]

See item 15 for Fridays BA meeting https://www.broads-authority.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0023/428531/Broads-Authority-agenda-13-May-2022.pdf

[grendel]

all systems will have a failure mode if not properly maintained,  so cable steering the cable can snag or break, teleflex steering, the cable can snag or break, hydraulic (with metal lines,) would need regular maintenance fluid levels checking/ changing, the same as any car would, a hydraulic system was only a suggestion as a tried and tested (in cars) option to consider as an example.

I think we all can see cost implications, but in industry, where safety is concerned, unless the cost makes it impractical cost alone is never considered an excuse for skipping safety.

as an example I will throw in this experience, at work I used to use a stanley knife to cut large sheets of foam board. we had several injuries on the construction side from people using stanley knives, so they were banned, upon enquiring how I was to cut the foamboard, I was told to do some research and find an alternative way, well I did, it was an automated cutting machine costing £7000. they went away, and a week later I was given instructions to use the stanley knife, but I must wear a pair of kevlar anti cut gloves.

the silliest part was the idiot in the office that though that ani cut gloves would stop him getting hurt, and proceeded to put them on and stab himself in the hand with the knife, of course the point went right through the knitted weave into his hand, the gloves were just to deflect a glancing slice from the knife blade, not n active attempt to stab oneself, just showing that you cannot ever prevent an idiot hurting themselves .

[OldBerkshireBoy]

1 hour ago, FlyingFortress said:

Showing my lack of knowledge once again in that I did not know that plastic piping was available.

Why on earth would anyone fit plastic piping?

No need to answer that BTW

Plastice pipe has been developed to cope with the pressures involved and it most likely comes on a roll and there would be less joints compared to copper (?). Plus it might be easier to ease round any bend.

[FlyingFortress]

2 minutes ago, OldBerkshireBoy said:

Plastice pipe has been developed to cope with the pressures involved and it most likely comes on a roll and there would be less joints compared to copper (?). Plus it might be easier to ease round any bend.

But as Vaughan say's above.

It's also prone to failure.

I have no doubt it's cheaper and easier to install.

There is a reason why brake pipes are not plastic.

[Vaughan]

I seem to have stirred up an off-topic hornet's nest here, about hydraulic steering.

I am talking big hire fleets (which is what this thread is supposed to be about).  Would you believe that we have learned not to top up the oil in hydraulic steerings, except in the early morning, when it is cool?  The plastic pipes expand in the heat, the inside diameter diminishes and they push oil out of the top filler cap onto the deck.  Anyone seen one of those, with a puddle of red oil under the dashboard?  By the way, ATF is not the correct oil for hydraulic steering.  It eats away at the oil seals in the piston and causes leaks.  The correct one is a white hydraulic oil such as Total Equivis, as used in hydraulic drives.

A few years ago they brought out a new version with a round bell shaped black box behind the steering wheel.  These caused us awful trouble with oil levels until we found the simple remedy of painting it white, to reflect the sun off it. Lo and behold, it worked!

If your private boat has hydraulic steering and you are happy with it, I am very glad to hear it.  I am talking large hire fleets, where we have not had an easy ride with them.

Could we please get back on the subject now and stay "inland" while we are at it?

[Mouldy]

4 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

Could we please get back on the subject now and stay "inland" while we are at it?

Exactly right.  There’s more to boat safety than steering and you can’t fit a container ship up The Thurne.

All I can see coming out of this is some uninformed twerp in a suit, with no knowledge of The Broads and it’s associated businesses coming up with unworkable ideas to solve an issue that isn’t really pressing.

Yes, perhaps the handovers for hirers aren’t the best, but they’ve sufficed for years and the large majority of people live to regale their tales and come back again and again.  Talk of half day or day training courses will inevitably provoke the authorities to give them thought, especially as they will undoubtedly create an additional source of income, as nothing is done for free in this day and age.  Will first timers be prepared to attend a training course for a day, travelling to Norfolk to take it, pay an amount of money ahead of coughing up a tidy sum for a holiday?  Personally, I think that would almost kill the hire industry and if applied to dayboat hire, as this seems to be applicable to motor boats, why wouldn’t it, would kill that too.

I don’t believe there were any fatalities on the rivers last year, so why the panic?

[Smoggy]

7 minutes ago, Mouldy said:

and you can’t fit a container ship up The Thurne.

But please try, that'd sort that bloody bridge.

[NotDeadYet]

As I'm soon to be venturing out on a dual control boat for the first time, I'm very grateful for the insights I've picked up reading this thread - I can now look forward to the boatyard briefing with interest, and I hope to be told all about the idiosyncrasies of the dual throttle setup, plus anything else (non standard) there may be!  Thank you to all our experts for their valuable comments.

 

 

[NotDeadYet]

33 minutes ago, Mouldy said:

Will first timers be prepared to attend a training course for a day

Well no, they won't.  Perhaps we could try harder to show them that they are not going out on their local boating lake, there are some dangers, but this is what you can do about them. I know this is done, but I don't think it is expressed strongly enough.  Some people don't understand carefully worded stuff, they need to be told in simple terms (and even then, they probably won't get it - as said previously, you can't teach stupid).

[OldBerkshireBoy]

39 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

I seem to have stirred up an off-topic hornet's nest here, about hydraulic steering.

 By the way, ATF is not the correct oil for hydraulic steering.  It eats away at the oil seals in the piston and causes leaks.  The correct one is a white hydraulic oil such as Total Equivis, as used in hydraulic drives.

 

Threads drift all the time and I found this drift interesting due to my working experiance with hydraulics and electronics so before it drifts back can I ask what sort of high temperature did you experiance for the systems to fail due to heat.

Yes, there is a whole world of difference in various oils and the rubber compounds used in seals which is why for oil I had Mobil oil on speed dial along with a sealing specialist who had something like 20 different compounds for seals.

Remember one headache being caused by milk eating through rubber.

[FlyingFortress]

1 hour ago, Mouldy said:

Exactly right.  There’s more to boat safety than steering and you can’t fit a container ship up The Thurne.

All I can see coming out of this is some uninformed twerp in a suit, with no knowledge of The Broads and it’s associated businesses coming up with unworkable ideas to solve an issue that isn’t really pressing.

Yes, perhaps the handovers for hirers aren’t the best, but they’ve sufficed for years and the large majority of people live to regale their tales and come back again and again.  Talk of half day or day training courses will inevitably provoke the authorities to give them thought, especially as they will undoubtedly create an additional source of income, as nothing is done for free in this day and age.  Will first timers be prepared to attend a training course for a day, travelling to Norfolk to take it, pay an amount of money ahead of coughing up a tidy sum for a holiday?  Personally, I think that would almost kill the hire industry and if applied to dayboat hire, as this seems to be applicable to motor boats, why wouldn’t it, would kill that too.

I don’t believe there were any fatalities on the rivers last year, so why the panic?

But Mouldy, we have found a solution. See Vaughn's post 

I don't think MAIB inspectors wear suits. Not really suitable for exploring the aftermath of Fires, sinkings and fatalities.

I am well aware that you cannot take a Container Ship up the Thurne but I have been taking Broads Boats up there for some 30 years. Next you will be telling me I am unqualified to comment as I was not born in Norfolk.

As you say there were no fatalities last year so all is OK.

[Mouldy]

7 minutes ago, FlyingFortress said:

But Mouldy, we have found a solution. See Vaughn's post 

I don't think MAIB inspectors wear suits. Not really suitable for exploring the aftermath of Fires, sinkings and fatalities.

And would they be the ones creating unworkable new rules?  Probably not, but it would be someone clueless in a suit, who knows nothing about the area or industry.  Having spent over 40 years in the logistics industry and witnessed the implementation of the Driver CPC, I can say with authority, what a load of drivel that turned out to be.  Nothing to do with promoting safety in the road haulage industry, but to try to give it a level of professionalism in the eyes of the general public, that’s certainly not been achieved with the ridiculous periodic training that was introduced.  Just a method to generate revenue for the training bodies authorised to provide the relevant courses.

12 minutes ago, FlyingFortress said:

I am well aware that you cannot take a Container Ship up the Thurne but I have been taking Broads Boats up there for some 30 years. Next you will be telling me I am unqualified to comment as I was not born in Norfolk.

And I’ve been a regular visitor and boater on The Broads for 53 years and since 1974 as a nominated skipper, for want of a better expression, more latterly as an owner.  And no, I’m not so stupid as to accuse anyone not Norfolk born to be unqualified.  However, constant reference to your experiences at sea, really does not benefit this thread imho.  No one imagines for a moment that the same level of skill required to skipper an ocean going vessel is required to skipper a Broads cruiser.

17 minutes ago, FlyingFortress said:

As you say there were no fatalities last year so all is OK.

Again, I said that the fatalities from a couple of years ago are regrettable, but however much experience you gain in any walk of life, there is always scope for an accident to occur, which may result in a fatality.  As a motorcyclist, I worked for a National training organisation as an instructor, was a part 1 test examiner and passed an advanced motorcycling test.  I ride defensively and coupled with my experience as a class 1 HGV driver, consider myself to be well trained as a road user, but I am well aware that even with the training I have received, there is a possibility that I could die in an accident.  It happens - that’s life.

What I think, as a result, is that it’s in advisable to apply a whole bundle of rules and regulations that could easily and irrevocably damage the hire industry, which in turn could damage my enjoyment of The Broads as a private boat owner through the loss of riverside amenities.

[Vaughan]

1 hour ago, OldBerkshireBoy said:

I ask what sort of high temperature did you experiance for the systems to fail due to heat.

They are pretty high temperatures, I admit!  In the Midi and Camargue, it is over 30º most days in high summer - sometimes 40º.

Even so, it can get over 30º on the Broads as well.  I heard it happened twice last year!