Boat Safety

[Wussername]

31 minutes ago, Mouldy said:

And would they be the ones creating unworkable new rules?  Probably not, but it would be someone clueless in a suit, who knows nothing about the area or industry.  Having spent over 40 years in the logistics industry and witnessed the implementation of the Driver CPC, I can say with authority, what a load of drivel that turned out to be.  Nothing to do with promoting safety in the road haulage industry, but to try to give it a level of professionalism in the eyes of the general public, that’s certainly not been achieved with the ridiculous periodic training that was introduced.  Just a method to generate revenue for the training bodies authorised to provide the relevant courses.

And I’ve been a regular visitor and boater on The Broads for 53 years and since 1974 as a nominated skipper, for want of a better expression, more latterly as an owner.  And no, I’m not so stupid as to accuse anyone not Norfolk born to be unqualified.  However, constant reference to your experiences at sea, really does not benefit this thread imho.  No one imagines for a moment that the same level of skill required to skipper an ocean going vessel is required to skipper a Broads cruiser.

Again, I said that the fatalities from a couple of years ago are regrettable, but however much experience you gain in any walk of life, there is always scope for an accident to occur, which may result in a fatality.  As a motorcyclist, I worked for a National training organisation as an instructor, was a part 1 test examiner and passed an advanced motorcycling test.  I ride defensively and coupled with my experience as a class 1 HGV driver, consider myself to be well trained as a road user, but I am well aware that even with the training I have received, there is a possibility that I could die in an accident.  It happens - that’s life.

What I think, as a result, is that it’s in advisable to apply a whole bundle of rules and regulations that could easily and irrevocably damage the hire industry, which in turn could damage my enjoyment of The Broads as a private boat owner through the loss of riverside amenities.

Interesting post. What is a nominated skipper! And, of what?

 

[Mouldy]

49 minutes ago, Wussername said:

Interesting post. What is a nominated skipper! And, of what?

 

The person whose name is on the hiring invoice and in these post Covid days, the person who signs the declaration to say that they’ve received instructions from the hire yard, therefore of the boat hired.

[Wussername]

23 minutes ago, Mouldy said:

The person whose name is on the hiring invoice and in these post Covid days, the person who signs the declaration to say that they’ve received instructions from the hire yard, therefore of the boat hired.

I accept that they have received instruction. What instruction, whose instruction, what qualified instruction?

You do need to be more specific. Other's may question, may question the actual value and integrity of that instruction, knowledge,  experience, indeed the ability to teach and share that understanding.

 

[Mouldy]

22 minutes ago, Wussername said:

I accept that they have received instruction. What instruction, whose instruction, what qualified instruction?

You do need to be more specific. Other's may question, may question the actual value and integrity of that instruction, knowledge,  experience, indeed the ability to teach and share that understanding.

 

Sorry, call me thick if you like, but instructions regarding the operation of the boat are given to a crew or an individual member of a crew at the time they take over the boat, or that is what happened when we last hired four years ago.  One person from the party signs a declaration following the test run to say they’ve received the instructions before they leave the yard.

One assumes that the instructions are given by someone with sufficient knowledge to do so.  Is it the responsibility of the hirer to question the expertise of boatyard staff to assess their suitably to do that?  After all, the hirer is being entrusted with many thousands of pounds worth of boat by the yard who has given authority for that person to issue instructions, guidance or whatever one is required to call them.

[FlyingFortress]

On 08/05/2022 at 20:38, Mouldy said:

I would have thought that with a high vantage point from the bridge, coupled with powerful bow and stern thrusters and surely more than one screw would increase the ability to accurately control difficult manoeuvres in tight spaces more easily than a comparatively light glass fibre craft, possibly with a hydraulic bow thruster, low helm position and a single engine.

I guess you learn something every day.

But then you told me that parking a 400m Container Ship was easier than parking a Broads boat.

It's like me telling you that driving a mobility scooter is harder than driving an artic.

Do you have opinions on the poor driving stands of car drivers?

Well coming from a commercial background I also have opinions on how a leisure industry operates.

Coupled with being a leisure operator myself.

[Wussername]

18 minutes ago, Mouldy said:

Sorry, call me thick if you like, but instructions regarding the operation of the boat are given to a crew or an individual member of a crew at the time they take over the boat, or that is what happened when we last hired four years ago.  One person from the party signs a declaration following the test run to say they’ve received the instructions before they leave the yard.

One assumes that the instructions are given by someone with sufficient knowledge to do so.  Is it the responsibility of the hirer to question the expertise of boatyard staff to assess their suitably to do that?  After all, the hirer is being entrusted with many thousands of pounds worth of boat by the yard who has given authority for that person to issue instructions, guidance or whatever one is required to call them.

Cannot argue with that Mouldy.

But I do question management's involvement, commitment, to the trial run. Not all, but some.

Andrew

Oh!  And thank you for your reply. It is important.

[Vaughan]

19 minutes ago, Mouldy said:

 One person from the party signs a declaration following the test run to say they’ve received the instructions before they leave the yard.

 

All charter parties have a "hirer" who is the person named on the hire invoice.  He or she is the person responsible for the boat, but not necessarily the skipper, or the driver.  For safety there should be a recognised skipper but they are not necessarily the hirer.

I have known plenty of family parties where the hirer is the father but the skipper is their 15 year old son, as the parents know he can handle the boat much better than they can, so they do the mooring ropes!

 

[Mouldy]

10 minutes ago, FlyingFortress said:

But then you told me that parking a 400m Container Ship was easier than parking a Broads boat.

It's like me telling you that driving a mobility scooter is harder than driving an artic.

Do you have opinions on the poor driving stands of car drivers?

Well coming from a commercial background I also have opinions on how a leisure industry operates.

Coupled with being a leisure operator myself.

Look, I’ll butt out of this thread.  It’s clear that in your opinion there are clear comparisons between operating an ocean going ship and a Broads cruiser.  I’ve never been in charge of something of that size, so can only speak from what I’ve seen watching programmes about captains of commercial ships.  They appear, to a layman, to have systems geared to assist guiding a ship, with the aid of tugs where appropriate, into a berth.

The Broads are surely a very different environment, shallower rivers, affected by tides to a lesser degree, with craft that are very different in design to suit the rivers they are used on.

I fail to see the likeness, but must bow to your superior knowledge.  Fifty years of boating on The Broads has obviously taught me nothing about handling a cruiser, or the area and no right to comment.  And yes, I do have my opinion of the standards of car drivers - despite formal training and passing a test to achieve the required standards, it clearly doesn’t work for a large proportion of drivers on the roads, in the same way as formal training would still leave many boaters wanting in terms of their ability to handle a boat.

Over to you, for I’m sure you will contradict everything I’ve just written.

[Vaughan]

3 minutes ago, Mouldy said:

Look, I’ll butt out of this thread.

I was just about to say, I think I'm off to bed now.  Hopefully we can get back on the subject tomorrow.

Goodnight folks, and don't drag your anchor.

[FlyingFortress]

2 minutes ago, Mouldy said:

Look, I’ll butt out of this thread.  It’s clear that in your opinion there are clear comparisons between operating an ocean going ship and a Broads cruiser.  I’ve never been in charge of something of that size, so can only speak from what I’ve seen watching programmes about captains of commercial ships.  They appear, to a layman, to have systems geared to assist guiding a ship, with the aid of tugs where appropriate, into a berth.

The Broads are surely a very different environment, shallower rivers, affected by tides to a lesser degree, with craft that are very different in design to suit the rivers they are used on.

I fail to see the likeness, but must bow to your superior knowledge.  Fifty years of boating on The Broads has obviously taught me nothing about handling a cruiser, or the area and no right to comment.  And yes, I do have my opinion of the standards of car drivers - despite formal training and passing a test to achieve the required standards, it clearly doesn’t work for a large proportion of drivers on the roads, in the same way as formal training would still leave many boaters wanting in terms of their ability to handle a boat.

Over to you, for I’m sure you will contradict everything I’ve just written.

No .

Nothing to contradict.

Watching you tube videos is all you need to know.

[FlyingFortress]

Night Vaughan.

I hope my mudweight will hold 

[Wussername]

Mouldy, FF, Vaughan, I have appreciated your contribution, it is relevant. Time to put a reef in. 

Tomorrow is another day. Just as important as yesterday. 

I look forward to that day. It will be challenging and I hope rewarding.

And be beneficial.

 

[FlyingFortress]

8 minutes ago, Wussername said:

Mouldy, FF, Vaughan, I have appreciated your contribution, it is relevant. Time to put a reef in. 

Tomorrow is another day. Just as important as yesterday. 

I look forward to that day. It will be challenging and I hope rewarding.

And be beneficial.

 

Really looking forward to meeting you Andrew.

As we both seem to be local hopefully it will not be too long.

I'm sure we can have some interesting discussions. 

[FlyingFortress]

That probably came over wrong with the addition of the 

I do genuinely look forward to meeting you.

I am a regular visitor to Ranworth and I am sure you can figure out my boat from my nickname on here.

[YnysMon]

One of the things that struck me when hiring was how every boat handled differently, so the first couple of days of any hire was like relearning how to handle a boat. Even when we hired Fair Regent twice within 12 months I had problems as the engines of FR 1 and 3 were so different. 3 had an engine that was very happy at low revs but hated anything over 1800, so much do that it almost stalled on Breydon and really struggled against the tide on the southern Broads. FR1 was the opposite. It was almost impossible to limit ones speed to 3mph, but was quite happy at higher revs. 

That's one of the reasons I like syndicate boating so much. Knowing how the boat is likely to handle is such a boon. 

[Vaughan]

Sounds as though FR1 and 3 had different propellors.

[Chelsea14Ian]

Helen I can agree.When we took ownership  of Mermaid last week (Hampton 25).She handers differently then Sweetkingfisher. 

[annv]

If any would like to go on You Tube under ship/boat mishaps it make broads mishaps pall in insignificance all by component skippers/pilots. There no collision wavers at sea. John

[FlyingFortress]

27 minutes ago, annv said:

If any would like to go on You Tube under ship/boat mishaps it make broads mishaps pall in insignificance all by component skippers/pilots. There no collision wavers at sea. John

Plenty of entertainment available there. 

Even better than the good lady that films at Ludham Bridge.

A good trawl through The MAIB investigations will show up some pretty stupid stuff done by qualified Mariners as well.

You will never hear me say all qualified Mariners are without their faults. If you do trawl through the MAIB site you will even find some stupid things done by my colleagues 

I will be the first to admit I have done some pretty stupid things myself. Thankfully not serious enough to warrant an outside investigation

It's fairly rare though considering we were doing 10000+ Pilotage acts a year. Records are kept and hopefully we have learned lessons from any incident.

Must remember to write in the past tense as I am now happily retired as of last month.

[Vaughan]

47 minutes ago, FlyingFortress said:

It's fairly rare though considering we were doing 10000+ Pilotage acts a year.

In which case, then consider 800 hire cruisers on the Broads doing a 27 week season each. That is 21600 cruising holidays last year - conducted in safety.

That does not include all the day boats.  Goodness knows how many thousands of people had a day out on the rivers in those, with no serious accidents that I have heard of.

[FlyingFortress]

15 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

In which case, then consider 800 hire cruisers on the Broads doing a 27 week season each. That is 21600 cruising holidays last year - conducted in safety.

That does not include all the day boats.  Goodness knows how many thousands of people had a day out on the rivers in those, with no serious accidents that I have heard of.

That's just our port.

As an island nation, other ports are available. 🙂

[floydraser]

1 hour ago, annv said:

If any would like to go on You Tube under ship/boat mishaps it make broads mishaps pall in insignificance all by component skippers/pilots. There no collision wavers at sea. John

Now as you mention it, I was thinking about this the other day: I have seen a few of those boaty mishap videos and they all seem to show at least one motor yacht going crazy and smashing into other boats in a harbour. The odd one I would have thought could have been someone worse the wear for drink but now, thinking about this thread, they could be down trouble between upper/lower helm controls.

[TheQ]

These two are particularly famous, luckily we don't have rocks on the broads and second picture hire boats are too slow to get up that high,

note the twin controls on the sailing boat incident..

.

[WherryNice]

The first pic does feature a Broads boat though......

[annv]

Most likely America but then again how many boats per year sailed does this represent. John