fuel prices

[unclemike]

just called in at local jet filling station £1.23.9/ltr for diesel, cheaper than asda,£1.24.9 nice to see lowered prices for a change

 

[BroadScot]

£1.20.9p a ltr at Sainsburys up here Mike. With my 6p off voucher got my Diesel at £1.18.9 a ltr. Long may it continue!

 

Iain.

[riyadhcrew]

Sorry to upset you guys, but I just bought some 95 petrol for my girls' scooter and it was 56 halalahs per litre. The exchange rate is about 6.1 to the pound which makes that about 9p per litre. Deisel is even cheaper. 

[BroadAmbition]

I got some white diesel as is the norm for the 'GriffTile' yesterday, £1:24:99 per Ltr (Not a supermarket either)

 

Now diesel for road use is fully taxed - all 100% of every litre

 

You know where this is going . . . . . . .

 

So how come some of the larger yards are supplying diesel for boats where only 60% of every litre is fully taxed but thier prices are STILL up at £1:40 per litre?? 

 

 

Griff

[Baitrunner]

Because they are robbers.

[Maxwellian]

Probably have higher costs and still need to make a profit. Some may not have a high through put and may still be selling fuel they bought at a higher cost. That's all the excuses I could think of.

Or

They are just profiteering.

Will we ever know.

[C.Ricko]

I think at the end of the day we are here to ultimately here to try and make a profit, we have been £1.35 all year, 

we have 20 pumps to maintain and we give attended service. 

our car park and dive insurance is free, you get a free map too!  our hire charges are the lowest and we pay our bills. 

if we lower the diesel price which is a possibility then we have to add a tenner on somewhere else.. 

[jeffbroadslover]

It's not very often you find a businessman who will give an honest answer rather than a load of sales waffle.

 

Thanks Clive and well done !

 

 

Jeff

[Hockham Admiral]

Because they are robbers.

I think that's a bit harsh, Mark. They aren't getting through 100's of 1000's of litres a week, are they?

You can always shop around North or South for cheaper fuel.

[Hockham Admiral]

Sorry to upset you guys, but I just bought some 95 petrol for my girls' scooter and it was 56 halalahs per litre. The exchange rate is about 6.1 to the pound which makes that about 9p per litre. Deisel is even cheaper.

And how much is a good old pint of wallop, Eric?

[Baitrunner]

Sorry Mr Admiral but let's find what they pay a litre. If the local indedependant fuel garage can do it cheaper when I am getting a lower tax charge because I use it for heating and electricary then it could be because of low volumes or just plain old money grabbing.

Neither of us can prove it either way, but if I pay full tax at joe blogs garage for the car and more at the boat yard then it makes me think. So come on brooms etc and tell it like it is?

At least then we can feel happy in paying through the nose.

[Baitrunner]

And sorry, but last time I filled up at brooms they were topping up a boat with 1000 litre tanks and I don't take much less! So they can easily get through a good few litres.

[Matt]

Brooms might get through a good few litres but I bet they don't sell as much between now and Easter.

[LondonRascal]

I don’t think I would be wrong in saying that many owners don’t tend to use their boats a great deal – odd weekends here, week or two in the summer etc seems much the usual if the hundreds of boats lined up in marinas’ is anything to go by.

 

Because of this they don’t use that much fuel – and it now will be the case being cheaper to bring jerry cans of Diesel with them – full taxed white diesel from the forecourt - to top up tanks than fill up at a boatyard.

 

While Clive has to be commended for being honest, I wonder how many many people who hire boats know about the 60/40 split as far as tax goes?

 

As the price of fuel rose to today's  £1.35 or £1.40 a litre we were told in the past and this was based upon the general rising cost of fuel, and many agreed this to be fair since the roadside cost of fuel was also going up.  However as the base price for fuel falls, so too should the cost at the pump even on the rivers (you can have your cake and eat it but it does not seem too fair to).

 

From a hirers point of view the fact the boatyard cost may be higher than the forecourt usually would not be bother them too much (a fuel deposit is often long forgotten about by the time of the holiday) but should they find upon return of the boat they now owe a bunch of money over and above their deposit it makes them annoyed (as I witnessed in reception when I returned Brinks Rhapsody). The general argument being why the boatyard charge so much over and above the forecourt and feeling as though they were being ripped off.

 

I also wonder how a boat like Brinks Rhapsody would fare as far as taxation and fuel goes. You see the propulsion is all electric, sure there is a generator which provides power to batteries – but these batteries power the boats electrics generally as well as propulsion, just as the generator provides power for all the domestic services too.  You do not need to run the generator at all if you cruised from charging point to charging point so is it fair to apply the 60/540 split to refuelling the generator fuel tank.

[littlesprite]

Robin forget boats for a minute and think domestic.

 

I have a mobile generator without wheels, I also have a ride on mower that isn't road legal, I have a hedge trimmer, I have a strimmer, all of them run on petrol which attracts full road duty, try arguing with the garage that you shouldn't be charge the duty and they laugh you of the forecourt. 

[C.Ricko]

it makes no difference whether we buy 2000 litres or 20,000 litres.

it has gone down about 8ppl since last year but not until recently.

 

 

we don't charge visiting craft for moorings or water either

[Matt]

As an accountant I can tell you it makes a difference if you have 2,000 or 20,000 litres sitting in those tanks over winter.........

[JennyMorgan]

Why waste money on fuel?

 

[VetChugger]

I'm curious as to why there is not more mention of hirers filling up elsewhere prior to returning the boat? I can't think that its illegal in any way and surely the yard would have to refund at the same rate as they sell which suggests a profit can be made! I would even go so far as to suggest that if hirers did this more often the yards would be forced to reduce their own prices!

 

All slightly tongue in cheek to encourage comment and supposition!

[LondonRascal]

littlesprite: all that you mention should of course attract the full rate of tax. On the Broads however where fuel sold to boaters is concerned there is a ‘compromise’ whereby it is deemed 60% of the cost of fuel will be used to propel the boat and 40% of the fuel be used to heat the boat.  Thus your over al tax liability would not be 100% (as per at the forecourt) but 60% of the duty.

 

The EU are most annoyed with this system, perhaps because they cannot take advantage of it – thus pressure is being put on our Government to end any reduction in tax for recreational boating fuel used.

 

Therefore my point was, if you have a boat without an engine linked to the propeller, none of the fuel used directly is being used to push the boat along – it is being used to simple generate electricity to charge batteries which power your cooking, lights and so on, but also happen to power the boats electric motor to propel it through the water. 

 

Add into the mix a percentage of power is provided through Solar panels and it gets very hard to say how much percentage of duty you should pay for the part of the diesel used to charge the batteries for the propulsion of the boat!

 

Because there are so few Hybrid cruisers (anywhere let alone the Norfolk Broads) I am sure the Revenue would have such a headache trying to work it out they would probably not bother – of course if Hybrid boats began to get popular things may change.

 

All this being said much of the system works on trust and lots of paperwork.  Trust that the boatyards supply the Revenue up to date records and keep such for inspection of how much fuel is sold at what tax rate and trust that boaters don’t bring their own fuel from elsewhere without duty being paid.

 

Imagine I bought a barrel of red diesel – I’d not legally be allowed to use that for my boat to drive the engine because I would not have paid the full duty on it, but I would be able to use it power a large workshop heater say.  If I put it in my boat however I’d cross the line and thus break the law. 

 

I am sure if inspectors were going around marinas asking for receipts of where fuel came from owners  (or by whatever other means they would use to see if the fuel used had the right duty paid) forums such as this would be ringing with the news of such going on such as: “I was told a team of guys from the Revenue arrived at Broad Edge on Friday to carry out spot checks” – since we don’t hear this, I doubt such happens

 

VetChugger: I think most Hirers would find if they topped up at Herbert Woods, Barnes Brinkcraft, Alpha Craft you name it - they would all charge roughly the same per litre - how many hirers though know of the likes of tucked away Boulters, or Sutton Staithe boatyard where significant savings can be had on the fuel price...

[C.Ricko]

nothing wrong with competition, I think most other significant yards have charged 140ppl this year.

I do stand to be corrected though..

[littlesprite]

Robin,

As a boat owner I fully understand the 60/40 split but you've missed my point in 2 ways, why should I pay full 100% tax on my generator at home and a boat pay nothing, why does any body have to pay road duty on fuel not used on the road, I except VAT but why road duty.

[kfurbank]

Robin, Your explanation of the 60/40 split is not strictly correct. 60% propulsion yes, but the other 40% does not have to be entirely for heating, but other domestic uses. On my boat I have an immersion element in the hot water tank and can power this from an invertor. If I do, then I can promise you that when the boat is next underway the loading from the alternator causes the engine to consume far more diesel for a few hours until the battery is fully recharged, at which the loading on the engine is much reduced and so is diesel consumption. Likewise you could run an engine whilst stationary as many boats do to heat water for showers etc. In the Winter time with shorter daylight hours there is far greater demand on the batteries for lighting, which again will cause more diesel consumption for a period when the boat is next underway. It's not an exact science in determining the 60/40 split, but HMRC indicated that you should declare the actual percentage you use and be prepared to validate this. They also indicated what they thought would be a generally acceptable average (60/40) which is unlikely to raise any eyebrows (investigation). I have been to the fuel berth at a yard on the South just after a large luxury boat had taken on board the best part of 1000 litres. He declared 100% for domestic as he was planning on using the boat frequently during the Winter, but not leaving the mooring. The yard obliged despite the fact that the boat in question has a 32amp hookup at the same yard, because in their words, it is up to the boat owner to be able to prove the split he has requested.

 

Based upon the above I would think it is entirely acceptable to refill a hybrid boat and declare a 30/70 split on the basis that some of the propulsion power has been provided by the solar panels or by electric hookup at posts recharging the batteries. Off course keeping a receipt for the £20 or £30 worth of electric cards you purchased would strengthen your case in any investigation by HMRC, if you were unlucky enough to be picked upon. 

 

A lot is made of the fact that Red diesel is often cheaper on the canals, but I would imagine that is often based upon 100% domestic usage as a lot of the live aboards on the canals never move and even have their coal and diesel delivered by narrow boat. Again if they choose to purchase and declare 100% domestic, but then cruise, then they have to be prepared to justify this should there be a HMRC investigation. I would imagine there is a far greater percentage of people buying diesel on the canals just for heating than on The Broads.

 

Clive makes some very good and honest points re his prices. I can buy diesel at his yard for 5p less than some yards in Wroxham. I have in the past moored overnight there and also filled with water. One yard in Wroxham makes it plain that no private boats are welcome to moor, but will sell you diesel or do a pumpout. Another charges a sliding scale of I think £10 up to £20 for private craft depending on length. So you need to compare the overall deal on offer and what works for you.

 

What I do find hard to understand is that Brooms and Goodchilds for most of last year and up to last year used to be within a penny or two per litre. Both yards must have fairly high through put, all though I would imagine Brooms possibly more so than Goodchilds. Yet this year there has been a big differential in prices. Goodchilds 1.13 and Brooms 1.33??? Does anyone know if this is Brooms hireboat fuel price? and maybe there is a different one for private craft / berth holders? Seems quite a jump to where it used to be.  

[Matt]

Berth holders at brooms pay £1.20

[kfurbank]

Matt,

 

Is that just for berth holders? or for visiting private craft as well declaring the 60/40 split?