Speed Limits Lowered

[Timbo]

Not on the water folks, but on the roads with a new scheme in West Norfolk piloted by Norfolk County Council in a bid to reduce road deaths. The scheme costing £300,000 will reduce the speed limit on country roads from the National Limit of 60mph down to 40mph. In this article in the Norwich Advertiser there is a comment by Dave Stephens, team manager for network management at Norfolk County Council who says "initial analysis suggested the scheme could help realise about £1m in savings in terms of reducing casualty costs".

 

Savings in casualty costs? Savings in casualty costs! This encapsulates something I find abhorrent about modern Britain, responsibility to the community reduced to pounds and pence. Save a life...first! The same goes for the fiasco that is Hinchingbrooke Hospital. To me, there is a fundamental flaw in any ideology that condones the making of profit from a duty to care for members of a community. There is no room for profit in caring, and no room for care in profit making. They are mutually exclusive. I realise that there has to be a 'bean counter' involved in the process somewhere but 'savings in casualty costs' for God's sake?

 

Rant over.

 

 

[Bonzo]

Personally, I think it is a good idea. Many country roads are on National Speed Limit. The problem is that many of the roads are too small, have blind bends and not adequately surfaced to accommodate cars travelling at 60 mph. As a careful driver I usually travel at 40 mph on country roads even if the limit is 60 mph. Only if the road is wide and fairly straight will I travel at 60 mph.

 

Certainly there will be savings in regards to not having to patch up the many drivers who just read the speed limit regardless and not the road conditions. We, the taxpayers usually pay for the driving mistakes of the more reckless drivers. Yes, lets save that money and plough the savings back into the NHS to give a better service.

 

My Local Authority set a 40 mph limit on country roads quite some time ago and I do not find it a problem. You just need to start you journey five minutes earlier which is no problem.

[JennyMorgan]

Part of my family stock were farmers. Now, anyone who knows the narrow roads of Norfolk will baulk at the suggestion that 60 m.p.h. is the norm for farmers on anything more than a tractor but, I assure you, it is. Yet they apparently never have accidents, must have an uncanny seventh sense that warns them when anything is coming the other way on what are often virtually one track roads. My townie wife used to dread a journey with my uncle as he hurtled along, a rooster tail of dust behind him. 

[MauriceMynah]

Arghhh one of my soap boxes... warning Rant alert!!!

 

The correct speed to drive any vehicle on any road is that which is within the drivers capabilities, the cars capabilities and the prevailing road and weather conditions.

 

HOWEVER, as we all know, other people don't apply this golden rule so speed limits have to be put in place.

The speed limits that are about are, for the most part, about right. The problem is that they are rarely effectively enforced.

 

This next question is rhetorical.

How many of you reading this, always drive at or below the speed limits?

 

What happens is that where there is a 50mph speed limit people drive at 60, sometimes more. then there is an accident, and then the speed limit is reduced to 40... RATHER THAN ENFORCING THE 50 LIMIT.

 

There are some stats I'd really like to get hold of. There is a stretch of road from Hoveton to Potter Heigham, via Stalham. There were frequent accidents on this road even though there were speed limits of 40, 50 and the national 60mph along it.

A few years ago, average speed check cameras were installed but the speed limits remained largely unchanged.

It is my suspicion that just by enforcing the existing speed limits there will have been a significant reduction in accidents on that stretch of road. If so I shall rest my case, if not I shall reevaluate it.

[smellyloo]

Speed limits should be obeyed ...... end.

 

However the problem I often encounter on our country roads are those drivers who insist on driving at 43.9 mph regardless of good, straight roads.

 

In my older, more, mellow years I just moan a bit and stay behind, however many wish to pass the mobile chicane which leads to a decision ..... do they exceed the speed limit to pass quickly  and safely or pass more slowly legally?

[Guest]

......There are some stats I'd really like to get hold of. There is a stretch of road from Hoveton to Potter Heigham, via Stalham. There were frequent accidents on this road even though there were speed limits of 40, 50 and the national 60mph along it.

A few years ago, average speed check cameras were installed but the speed limits remained largely unchanged.

It is my suspicion that just by enforcing the existing speed limits there will have been a significant reduction in accidents on that stretch of road. If so I shall rest my case, if not I shall re-evaluate it.

 

You can indeed rest your case then MM.

 

That section of the A149, from Potter Heigham to the Smallburgh junction just past Wayford was notorious, not just for accidents, but fatal accidents.

 

It used to have the heart wrenching sight of so many bunches of flowers and wreaths along that particular  length.

 

When the average cameras were installed, the accident rate dropped significantly, and fatalities have become much rarer along there now.

 

It was dicsussed extensively on here at the time, 4 years ago:

 

[Mowjo]

Maurice! if memory serves me right those speed cameras were paid for by EU funding, but after installation they found out they couldn't afford to maintain them, so they have never actually been working apart from when they tested them on instalation, the stretch of road you mention is one of my bug bears, the speed limits are all over the place, you get 60, 50, 40, and 30 all within a few hundred yards in some bits, near some houses it's 40mph and 100 yards down the road outside the next houses it's 30 mph, I use that road a lot and have had a few near misses with people overtaking on bends, or others doing 60 mph then slammimng on their brakes as they see the 40mph sign, I'm no slow driver if it's clear and the road conditions are Ok! but that is one stretch of road I'd like to see an overall 40mph limit and 20mph near schools,,

 

Frank,,,,

[grendel]

round our way the main road between where I live and my parents (12 miles) used to be national limit all the way between towns, slowly the roads have had speed limits imposed, so much so that there is only about 1/2 mile (accumulative) of national speed limit left, as I drive out of town, at the very outskirts where it changes to countryside we go from 30mph to 40, 3 miles later we change to 50mph, which then goes for about the next 6 miles (with odd sections at 40mph).

It is said that this is because despite being countryside there are residential houses on the road (well I say on the road, most have a driveway of several hundred yards). so now we have a main A road, that is speed limited along most of its length, and what used to be a 15-20 minute journey can now not be (legally) made under 30 minutes. the remaining national speed limit sections, well one is a long straight, that is just long enough that if the road is clear you can overtake, but not if as you pull out a car becomes visible from the other direction, if he is driving at the speed limit toward you, then it may be a hundred yards too short, if he is speeding then even less chance.

Grendel

[littlesprite]

I read somewhere that 77% of all accidents occur at road junctions and don't necessarily involve speed, however fatalities invariably do involve speed. 

[Soundings]

Arghhh one of my soap boxes... warning Rant alert!!!

 

The correct speed to drive any vehicle on any road is that which is within the drivers capabilities, the cars capabilities and the prevailing road and weather conditions.

 

HOWEVER, as we all know, other people don't apply this golden rule so speed limits have to be put in place.

The speed limits that are about are, for the most part, about right. The problem is that they are rarely effectively enforced.

 

This next question is rhetorical.

How many of you reading this, always drive at or below the speed limits?

 

What happens is that where there is a 50mph speed limit people drive at 60, sometimes more. then there is an accident, and then the speed limit is reduced to 40... RATHER THAN ENFORCING THE 50 LIMIT.

 

There are some stats I'd really like to get hold of. There is a stretch of road from Hoveton to Potter Heigham, via Stalham. There were frequent accidents on this road even though there were speed limits of 40, 50 and the national 60mph along it.

A few years ago, average speed check cameras were installed but the speed limits remained largely unchanged.

It is my suspicion that just by enforcing the existing speed limits there will have been a significant reduction in accidents on that stretch of road. If so I shall rest my case, if not I shall reevaluate it.

MM we have a wayward farmer around here who drives big kit at silly speeds and literally runs pedestrians off the road. We complained to the police but as the farmer was not actually speeding he was not guilty of an offence, said the Police. In response I used your well state reasoning - driving too fast for the conditions - suggesting he must surely be guilty of dangerous/reckless driving. Not so regrettably - he would only be guilty of that if he actually hurt someone or caused damage. Now where is the sense in that - this country has gone mad I sometimes think.

 

Incidentally the speed limit on the lane in question is 30mph. If they ignore that they sure as hell won't bother about 40 Most of the lanes are not actively policed anyway.

[Soundings]

Maurice! if memory serves me right those speed cameras were paid for by EU funding, but after installation they found out they couldn't afford to maintain them, so they have never actually been working apart from when they tested them on instalation, the stretch of road you mention is one of my bug bears, the speed limits are all over the place, you get 60, 50, 40, and 30 all within a few hundred yards in some bits, near some houses it's 40mph and 100 yards down the road outside the next houses it's 30 mph, I use that road a lot and have had a few near misses with people overtaking on bends, or others doing 60 mph then slammimng on their brakes as they see the 40mph sign, I'm no slow driver if it's clear and the road conditions are Ok! but that is one stretch of road I'd like to see an overall 40mph limit and 20mph near schools,,

 

Frank,,,,

I have certainly seen them being worked on in the recent past an understood they were indeed working - at least for part of the time. Only what I heard though although I physically saw the maintenance guys

[Guest]

I read somewhere that 77% of all accidents occur at road junctions and don't necessarily involve speed, however fatalities invariably do involve speed. 

 

That's another reason why that section of the A149 had so many accidents and fatalities before the cameras Martin.

 

There are dozens of minor side roads joining and crossing it, and when combined with people exceeding the mostly 60mph limit, produced a very dangerous combination.

[Guest]

It's quite clever really, having average speed cameras that are probably not switched on.

 

How many speeders want to take the chance of running up points and fines ?

 

So they've saved lives and they can't be accused of being "cash cows" by a certain type of motorist... 

[SPEEDTRIPLE]

There are NO dangerous roads whatsoever. The danger ous bit is the idiot behind the wheel. Yet more and more youngsters without the common sense to realise they`re NOT operating a playstation handset can`t distinguish the real thing from make believe, and still they are issued with full licenses after passing an outdated driving test.   With even the smallest cars of today having the handling, braking, and higher top speeds of most sports cars of 40 years ago, the driving test should be completely updated to compansate.

[Siddy]

You drive to the road condition and not over the limit. Roads over to the east coast from Leeds drop you to 40 then to 30 in built up area then back to 60 with no issues with loads of notice. I drive to the limit leave room in front of me but then it's the clowns who overtake and pull in causing you to brake that bugs me.

I was just about to say most of these roads where HGV travel are down to 40mph but after checking there raising it to 50mph for them from 6th April.

Now dropping speeds near schools yes to 20mph but soon as I leave the street and cross the lights they've just made a mile long road 20mph with a high school half way only issues is parents blocking road at pickup time. I have to drive in 2nd gear using higher revs more noise and fumes to stay about 20 (green driving?). I didn't know I knew that many people as they wave at me while overtaking me.

[Timbo]

I have to admit I love driving the road between Wroxham and Stalham...I don't mind the speed restrictions or the cameras. I do object to the half wits I meet on occasion driving at 25 MPH. What's more I can vouchsafe that the tractor drivers I've come across in Norfolk are far better than their Lincolnshire counterparts. In Lincolnshire they will think nothing of driving over five miles without pulling in to let the traffic pass.

 

i am one of those that will complain at the cash cow cameras. Its nothing more than a stealth tax...particularly the one I ran foul of in Norwich, you may have read the thread here, a quick update...I've had my fine refunded!

 

I am all for sensible road schemes, although this is something that does not happen very often in Lincolnshire. I keep close tabs on the statistics for my own road after it was made a cul de sac, and several crossings dotted around the estate on routes that nobody walks on. A little digging on my part found the minutes of the meeting where I discovered the council had claimed too much money from central government and needed to spend £1.2 Million or lose it from next years budget. I noted that the cul de sac was created due to there being 5 accidents in 50 years the most serious being someone losing a wing mirror. Since the the new scheme there have been 12 accidents in 2 years, 9 serious requiring fire brigade and ambulance, 1 where driver had to be cut from vehicle. Add to this a fatality caused by an ambulance not being able to negotiate the new road layout quick enough to gain access to a heart attack victim. With every accident I publish on twitter with the result being a tweet from Lincolnshire County Council saying 'I was only complaining because 5 minutes were added to my journey'! This was deleted, but not before I got a screen capture.

 

Back to Norfolk and other than the aforementioned 25mph numpty my other bugbear are motorcyclists. I've never seen one yet that stuck to the speed limit and rode without putting his or anyone else's life in danger. 

[MauriceMynah]

Speed cameras. Safety devices or cash cows? an interesting point.

Some are, without doubt, cash cows, especially some of the standard yellow box type but the average speed check method has to be a positive step towards safer roads.

As I said before, we don't need lower speed limits, we need to enforce the ones we already have.

 

Soundings...

Sorry my friend but if your farmer chappie never has an accident, then it's rather difficult to justify calling his driving "dangerous". Rude yes! Aggressive yes! Even socially unacceptable but sadly not actually dangerous, until such time as he has an accident in which his driving style plays a part.

 

Assessing something as "dangerous"  before it has actually proved to be so and legislating accordingly is that terrible path that leads us by the nose to the "nanny state" we all object to so much.

[Guest]

Like I said, average speed cameras that may or may not be switched on.

 

No cash cow, but saving lives........

[Soundings]

 

Soundings...

Sorry my friend but if your farmer chappie never has an accident, then it's rather difficult to justify calling his driving "dangerous". Rude yes! Aggressive yes! Even socially unacceptable but sadly not actually dangerous, until such time as he has an accident in which his driving style plays a part.

 

Assessing something as "dangerous"  before it has actually proved to be so and legislating accordingly is that terrible path that leads us by the nose to the "nanny state" we all object to so much.

I agree MM but when you see people having to make strenuous efforts to get out of the way one realises that the reason nobody has been hurt is own to the agility of the pedestrian rather than the skills of the driver one cannot help feel that there should be a way of getting at the driver. But yes I appreciate we don't want a nanny state :-(

[BuffaloBill]

 

 

"my other bugbear are motorcyclists. I've never seen one yet that stuck to the speed limit and rode without putting his or anyone else's life in danger. "

Please don't fit all motorcyclists into that box

Iv'e been riding bikes on the road for over 50yrs and never

had an accident nor caused one from the way I ride, and

Iv'e been to Germany twice and Northern Ireland twice too.

I also taught students to ride and pass their test until 5yrs

ago and the one statement I always instilled in them was this:-

"Never ride faster than the distance you can see to stop in"

That applies to car drivers too but more so to a biker as they

have no metal crash cage to help keep them safe.

When you ride a bike, you become far more aware of your

environment and other traffic than in a car, besides, being

higher up where you can see more.

Car drivers on the whole hate bikes because of the way we can

filter through the traffic and make headway whilst they are stuck!

Young(usually) car drivers are far worse as you often see

on those police programs on the TV, because they 'feel safe'.

Don't fit all motorcyclists into the same box, because car drivers

are just as bad.

As with all forms of motoring, you get good and bad in all camps.

Sorry but I had to say it 

Edited to add that I'm now 67yrs old 

[GeoffandWendy]

Most sensible drivers will adhere to the speed limit, but you will always get the boy racer types (not necessarily young drivers either) who always have to drive faster. Then of course you sometimes come across the complete opposite, what I call the little old lady drivers, who never seem to drive above 30 mph, irrespective of what the speed limit is.

 

Let me tell you about a pair of old ladies in an immaculate Morris Minor 1000, we came up behind last summer. They were out for a Sunday drive on the A429, which runs through the Cotswolds. There was quite a bit of traffic travelling in both directions, all keeping to the 40/50 mph limit between Wellesbourne and Moreton in the Marsh. We had quite a clear road ahead of us, until we reached a couple of bends and came up behind this Morris Minor ahead of us, travelling at approx 25 mph. Thinking that the driver was taking extra caution on the bends, we expected that she would increase her speed once clear of the bends. 

 

As the road started to straighten out again, the old lady driving the car, kept her speed at 25 mph and as there was a constant stream of traffic coming in the opposite direction, we were unable to overtake, this went on for the next three or four miles, not being able to overtake, because of approaching bends, or approaching traffic.

 

By this time, quite a lot of traffic had come up behind us, but the little old ladies didn't seem to be concerned, they were happily ambling along, enjoying the scenery. Then all of a sudden, as we approached a cross roads, the Morris Minor came to a halt, causing us and everyone behind us to stop as well. As lot's of traffic was still coming in the opposite direction, we were still not able to get past the Morris Minor and we noticed that her passenger had just unfolded a rather large map.

 

With a few honking of horns from behind us, the old lady driver, then decided to put on her right hand indicator, move forward and had to wait again until the road was clear for her to turn right. Eventually, we were able to continue our journey at the designated speed of 40 mph again. Then to top it all, around the next bend, we came up behind a tractor, with a rather large trailer in tow. Before this, several cars behind us had decided to overtake us, (yes the impatient) before we were all once again caught up in another slow line of traffic, for the next few miles. Once the tractor had turned off the road, we manage to reach Moreton in the Marsh, at a leisurely 40 mph, were we decided to stop for a while and have a bite to eat.

[Guest]

I've clicked the "like" button on BB's post because I agree with what he said, ( "like" is not quite the right word !)

 

I can also appreciate why Timbo feels the way he does about some bikers.

 

Most are safe riders and drive very defensively in order to survive (like me), but with the extreme technological advances in bikes over the past few decades, there's a growing number of complete Morons riding 150mph machines round country lanes like in the IOM TT.

 

Groups of 20 or 30 racing leather clad bikers racing along narrow, twisty countryside lanes are now an ever increasing sight in Norfolk.

 

Much smarter looking and wealthier than the "Rockers" of the 60's, but far more dangerous to every else on the roads.

[MauriceMynah]

I'm reminded of this story...

 

Waiting in a lay by to catch speeding drivers, a Police Officer saw a car crawling along at 10 MPH.  
He muttered to himself: "This driver is just as dangerous as a speeder!"  So he turned on his lights and pulled the driver over.  

As he approached the car, he noticed that there were five old ladies, two in the front seats and three in the back...wide eyed and white as ghosts.

The driver, obviously confused, said to him "Officer, I don't understand, I was doing exactly the speed limit!
What seems to be the problem?"

"Ma'am," the officer replied, "you weren't speeding, but you should know that driving much slower than the speed limit can also be a danger to other drivers."

"Slower than the speed limit? No sir, I was doing the speed limit exactly...Ten miles an hour!" ....the old lady said, pointing to a road sign.  

The Police officer, trying to contain a chuckle explained to her that “A10” was the road number, not the speed limit.

A bit embarrassed, the lady smiled and thanked the officer for pointing out her error.

"But before I let you go, Ma'am, I have to ask...Is everyone in this car OK? These ladies seem awfully shaken, and they haven't made a sound this whole time," the officer asked.

"Oh, they'll be all right in a minute officer. We've just come off the A120." !!!

 

I do have some (albeit only a little) sympathy for the speeding motorist. The speed limits, stopping distances and many other things in the highway code were based on a car of the 50s. Brakes and road holding have been much improved since then, Sadly common sense hasn't. Draw your own conclusions!!!

[Wussername]

.............and finally, in Norfolk, please remember:

It is number two

That forms the queue.

[jeffbroadslover]

I can't understand the "modern way of driving".

 

When my stepdaughter and stepson were learning to drive they were both taught that speed limits were not in fact limits but were TARGETS.

Apparently when you take your test nowadays if you are in a 40 limit area you are expected to do 40 and not treat it as a maximum speed area and travel at about 37 ( the way I was taught many, many years ago.

 

It always amuses me that when I travel at about 60 in a 60 limit area there is always someone who will pass me doing 70 or more.   The bit that amuses me is when I am sat behind them at the next traffic lights or junction !!

 

 

Jeff