Broads & Technology

[Guest]

8 hours ago, JennyMorgan said:

I thought that you did too!

I have had a similar debate with senior staff at the BA. There are those who claim that the Broads is man-made whilst there are others, like me, who claim that the Broads were once open water, subsequently silted up due to lack of dredging. Interestingly the Waveney, apparently, was once an estuary of the Rhine with a land-bridge to the continent. At what point in history do we go back to?

Our poor human brains soon get out of their depth if we start thinking about extreme history. Everything we know and think about is such a small pinprick.

If it possibly all started with the "big bang", I wonder what happened before that...

[marshman]

Not just my brain then, Strowie!! And there was me thinking the Big Bang Theory was just about the comedy show on the TV!!! Did they name that theory after the show????

[johnb]

Before the big bang-probably driving along dreaming about Norfolk and didn't notice the lorry in front had stopped!

[JennyMorgan]

I really don't know why the Authority is so wrapped up in the origins of the Broads in relation to their management. They are what they are and the management should relate to that fact and not some as yet undefined, rose tinted period in their history. 

[BITTERNBOY]

Just thinking about technology and the Broads....

Who can remember the blackboards that were placed at the junctions of the main rivers that were used to leave emergency messages for boaters to phone home. I think they must have been operated by the Broads rangers (bit like baby crying in chalet 234 !   ).

John

[Gracie]

Crikey I don't recall seeing blackboards but my earliest memory of holidays with my parents was an old Boat which had gas lights lol. I really do appreciate that things change practically on a daily basis and some people embrace changes and technology more than others but I will keep our Broadland adventures in the  old fashioned way as long as I can for my own children. We've got microwaves, a posh telly, mobiles, lappy's and even an office at home, why on earth would I want all that on a Boat on the Broads. If I wanted all these things then I would stay in a posh hotel and sit round the pool all day lol.

You can hire the high tech Boats and very nice they are indeed but give me a good old fashioned boat any day of the week 

Grace 

[deebee29]

27 minutes ago, BITTERNBOY said:

Just thinking about technology and the Broads....

Who can remember the blackboards that were placed at the junctions of the main rivers that were used to leave emergency messages for boaters to phone home. I think they must have been operated by the Broads rangers (bit like baby crying in chalet 234 !   ).

John

I'd forgotten about these but yes I do remember them when we first came to the broads.

for us the tech stays at home (apart from an iPod) when on holiday. We have phones of course but just for emergency use.

It's nice to get away from it all and enjoy the peace & quiet of the surroundings 

[BroadScot]

There was one board prominently displayed as you came to the juction of the Bure / Thurne With SOS on it. Hi tech or what!

Iain.

[LondonRascal]

Many things change and evolve over time.  Something simple like my street has had new LED street lights installed – they are wonderful – but it made me ponder that in all the hundreds of years my street has existed never at night has it seen such bright, white light.

Today however so much of the hard work has been completed for you, look at how http://www.checkmyfloodrisk.co.uk/ uses Google Maps as the core of their website. No adverts, data provided freely by the Environment Agency, Mapping and Satellite Imagery supplied by Google.. Powerful, free to use resource for us to use. 

Other than data provided from hard wired water height sensors at bridges, much of the ideas I had are software based.  Sure it would be expensive to create an App and maintain it – but it would have such scope and power.  Rather than companies donating to the Broads Authority in monetary terms (through sponsorship) technology giants could just provide some help – free server space, graphic designers, coders etc yet still be able to boast to their shareholders how the company is in partnership with the Broads and helping bring to wider prominence the beauty and environmental importance of the area to many more people. 

I appreciate people who like to ‘switch off’ when on the water – but this about providing information.  It would be the map – the Speedo – the advertisement portal for ‘pubs near your location’ it would be the navigation helper when you crossed Breydon Water, and it would know your location, date and time of day and indicate if you should moor on the left or right of the boat because of the tidal flow.  It would tell you what the bridge heights were at different locations, be able to connect to report things to the Broads Authority. It would provide walking routes, environmental information and more indeed it would not even need to be a full App but a ‘Web-App’ meaning the actual physical App need not be so complex or large to install. 

While some like to explore and plan walking routes and ‘take a chance’ on a pub – it is about getting far more people active, informed and willing to give things a go from the family who worry about going to the southern broads because they find it hard to work out the tides, to couple who say ‘let’s go for a walk- it even tells us where to go’.  Overall it is about making the Broads a world leader in brining technology, the natural environment and the visitor together more than ever. 

Finally, the smart mooring system/tracking.  It’s very simple that moorings have along their length RF readers.  Every boat has a new ‘RF Chip’ in a new electronic toll tag system on their hull. Be you a private owner or a fleet operator everyone will be issued with this.  When you arrive at a mooring that is under the system, the mooring knows you have arrived – the date and time and the boat.  If you imagine, a ‘meter’ begins ticking.

When you depart the mooring you are charged. If you stayed for 24hrs it might be £10.00 if you stayed for half a day £5.00 – if you overstayed the mooring you would be fined – for example in Hour 28 £150.00 would be taken. 

These charges would help subsidise the moorings facilities – they would be a minimum of electric hook up, water and refuse collection along with WiFi but at larger moorings perhaps showers and toilets too. 

If you are a private owner you can choose to pay these fees upon toll renewal or have them deducted from a bank account or credit card.  If a fleet operator when the boat returns to the yard it is logged as so doing, any charges are deducted from the customer – be it out of fuel refund, by card etc and the system is ready to go again for the next hirer.

Through this system you would not be able to track boats in real time but you would know which boats are currently moored at a ‘BA Mooring’ and how many of them, so over time you could build up a picture of peoples habits seeing some might moor regularly at places like Ranworth but not so much at Reedham.

[JanetAnne]

I think I am with the majority on this. I would love to take the broads back 25 years rather than forward 10!

Just one thing though. Someone mentioned a virtual experience, if we get that far can we set it in the 50's? Oh to be able to moor and watch the wherry races, to stop at the Beehive for ice cream, to overnight at Yarmouth three abreast amid a sea of varnish, watch the new star class fleet being built in Wroxham...

A time before the elf 'n safety ruled the roost and, of course, a total lack of No Mooring signs across the net work!

Be warned though....  you might come across the pesky mod in shorts 

[MauriceMynah]

I have to say Robin, Some of your ideas are my worst nightmare!

You'll soon be suggesting that we tell children that Santa teleports into houses and has become even fatter on venison sarnies.

[JanetAnne]

Ironically we are all using the exact medium we are so against just to have this discussion!

However, I am very much in favour of anything that puts bums on seats, so to speak. The broads are desperate for new revenue and we are all up in arms when pubs close through lack of income. I would not necessarily want such technology aboard but if it helps the boating community in general then bring it on.

Of course I am hypocrite, I am in love with the new all singing heating controller that comes with my new webasto and would never want to see a gas panel heater aboard again, ever!

Edited because I pressed the wrong button.  

Edited December 3, 2015 by JanetAnne
Can't type

[BroadScot]

56 minutes ago, JanetAnne said:

Ironically we are all using the exact medium we are so against just to have this discussion!

However, I am very much in favour of anything that puts bums on seats, so to speak. The broads are desperate for new revenue and we are all up in arms when pubs close through lack of income. I would not necessarily want such technology aboard but if it helps the boating community in general then bring it on.

Of course I am hypocrite, I am in love with the new all singing heating controller that comes with my new webasto and would never want to see a gas panel heater aboard again, ever!

Edited because I pressed the wrong button.  

More than likely a CHOCOLATE Button!

Iain

[senator]

I'm guessing that most places that have adopted technology and prospered from it had a few similar voices. The thing with the Broads is it seems to be the majority.

Can the Broads be made "Better"? of course they can, Do the core people that use the Broads now want that?  is a very different question.

I suppose it depends whether you want an industry for the next 10 years or the next 100.

[Saily]

Don't want to wet-blanket these proposals (no harm in looking at every idea), but let's be realistic...

" These charges would help subsidise the moorings facilities – they would be a minimum of electric hook up, water and refuse collection along with WiFi but at larger moorings perhaps showers and toilets too." 

In practical terms, which will come first , Robin?  At present there are insufficient funds to provide enough of even the most basic of moorings to the level many people are seeking - I don't see you being able to pay for the upgrades you suggest from income taken from the hi-tech readers you describe, as folks simply won't pay up front for what's not yet available - there's enough fuss made every year over the existing service provided (or not) from the tolls.

e.g. the sheer cost of running power and water to (let us say - Thurne moorings recently lost) to drive the hookups, and hosepipes, let alone shower cubicles - we can't even have basic waste disposal maintained in existing villages like South Walsham, far less along the riverbanks, far less these ideal facilities.

By how much would tolls have to rise to reinstate what was there only 10 years ago, let alone 21st century toys? Business will only fund stuff if there's a return for them (which could of course be measured in goodwill, I accept), but I hardly think any business (or group of businesses) is likely to fork out the 100's of thousands it would cost for goodwill from beneficiaries.

On a personal note, if this level of cash became available by some miracle, I'd far rather see it put to dredging and bankside tree clearance before the system clogs up, instead of yet more facilities  

[ChrisB]

Love the post from Bitternboy. The RAC did the same on major roads. 

And what about the radio SOS messages before mobile phones that went something like:

"This is an SOS for Mr & Mrs Smith" Pause " Would Mr & Mrs Peter Smith touring Scotland in a green Morris Minor registration 123 XYX Please phone home. It is about Mrs Smith's mother who is dangerously ill" 

I think they were broadcast three times s day before the main news and after the weather forecast. Anyway essential listening if touring.

[senator]

Great Ideas Robin but I think you are going to have to sell them to the Thames and the Canals first. Once there are outdated 1st generation versions of the system second hand you can possibly start thinking about the Broads.

Alternatively I can go down the thinking of another forumite. Sell it to Holland, that way a derogation from the Broads Authority can have a freebie holiday in a 5 star hotel for a week on the basis of looking into how the Broads can be improved and will then come back and buy it as their discovery.

[Speleologist]

3 hours ago, LondonRascal said:

Every boat has a new ‘RF Chip’ in a new electronic toll tag system on their hull. Be you a private owner or a fleet operator everyone will be issued with this.  When you arrive at a mooring that is under the system, the mooring knows you have arrived – the date and time and the boat.

This, to my mind is step too far in the "Big Brother" direction. Were such a solution to be seriously suggested I would be a vehement opponent of it on privacy grounds.

[MauriceMynah]

"When you arrive at a mooring that is under the system, the mooring knows you have arrived"...

And sends a gentleman in full morning suit with a silver tray holding a foaming pint of Broadside (well maybe not "foaming"). I could live with that!

 

[BroadScot]

5 minutes ago, MauriceMynah said:

"When you arrive at a mooring that is under the system, the mooring knows you have arrived"...

And sends a gentleman in full morning suit with a silver tray holding a foaming pint of Broadside (well maybe not "foaming"). I could live with that!

 

Oh best idea YET .....MM Broadside by the keg please!

[LondonRascal]

Interesting points especially about how you would pay for the upgrades needed – it is simple the Broads Authority borrows money. 

Because of the scale of the project and parties involved from the electricity suppliers, to the water companies and technology partners it would probably be easier to raise a few million pounds than a hundred thousand here and there and would effectively work on a continuous income plan.

The plan would work on the fact that every boat would no longer have  paper Toll sticker to put on their hull and the toll system would have to change – I think the best way would be to charge by boat length and only boat length.

There would be, much as a commercial Lease an agreed ’toll review period’ whereby the toll would increase at a pre-determined level each year for the next five years – with no bearing on inflation – so everyone would know for the next five years how much their boat would cost to toll and budget for such.

A new ’Toll Tag’ would then replace the sticker system currently used and hand held readers can be carried by Rangers to scan such and see if a boat has an up to date toll – if not, an automatic fine is levied there and then taken directly from the owners account.

Using this system would encourage more ‘official moorings’ and thus mean all boaters would increasingly need to pay to moor – this, much the same as a toll being levied once a new bridge or road is built means that there is a regular income from its use and that keeps the lenders happy and investors who installed the equipment. 

Remember the overnight or half day fee for the mooring does not include ‘unlimited use of electricity’ for example, that is still charged by the £1.00 cards and water is dispensed from a meter that you need to pay for £1.00 = water.  No money, no water. 

So why do it?  Well it means that there would be a new revenue stream to the Broads Authority to pay for the new infrastructure.  The toll system would be simplified, but there would be none of this complaining about how much the tolls may rise and arguments – that would be known for five years so that would mean the Broads Authority could budget better as to what this money would be used for. 

Because toll renewals would be automated there would be less staff need to oversee the operation, less paper, letters, stickers you name it and so more savings there.  Because of the new fine system which would automatically issue such for overstaying moorings, or non-renewal of tolls directly from the owners accounts, a new revenue stream would emerge with less fuss, arguments and paperwork – even ‘on the stop’ speeding fines could all be issued through the Toll Tag system.  This would do away with the cat and mouse game of chasing people, placing notices on the boats, writing letters etc etc.  Plain and simple you did overstays a mooring, did not renew your toll on time etc you get a penalty issued. 

I am pretty sure too you would be able to have a system much like with parking and cars whereby if a boat was to remove their Toll Tag or tamper with is etc the boat could be impounded – literally lift the boat out of the water and onto a barge and take it to the Broads Authority ‘pound’ (hard ground next to river) where it is then placed on the hard and only released once the money had been paid (with storage fees accumulating).

What would the result be?

Honestly a great deal of upset – people may no longer be able to afford to go boating because the toll would increase and go on increasing at a set rate – others would dislike the fact know if they moor up anywhere popular, they would need to budget £10 a night for so doing. Yes, these are big, bold changes but it is the only way I can see a path to continued, greater investment not just to the infrastructure of the rivers, but also dredging and environmental protection.  It may also encourage more affluent boaters to the river system – both hire and private and this in turn would hasten the inventible whereby new shore side business can come that are not just a café or a pub but match the expectations of those who visit the area.

[unclemike]

think it's time you read george orwell's 1984 robin

 

big brother we dont need

[Saily]

Aaaah, I see..... that's much more detailed, so makes it much easier to react to..... after due consideration (at least 10 seconds)

No Thanks; over my dead body.

If I had Centre Parcs on my doorstep (which is basically what you've described) I'd move....

But content, knowing it's much less likely than sea level rises  

and just spotted "  I'm an idealist. I don't know where I'm going, but I'm on my way. ", so now I know were you're going wrong

 

Innit great we're all different?

[senator]

Initial success of people semi agreeing with you may have gone to your head a little Robin  

I understand your principles but at present there is only the courts that can issue a fine, maybe the BA could issue an invoice for breach of contract but and it is a big but.

DO YOU REALISE WHO WOULD BE IN CHARGE OF THIS NEW POLICE STATE?

There are some good ideas in there Robin but finance through penalty charge is not really the way to go for a leisure activity in my mind.

If what you do is essential then the state can get away with it, you have to drive, you have to park, you have to have electricity, you have to have a bank account, etc. You do not have to go boating. Implement your ideas and I am fairly certain that people just wouldn't. The result of which would be a rather negative impact on the tolls pot.

[JennyMorgan]

Robin, I have now read your Orwellian proposals. I am quite certain that you could find support from those who envisage greater support for what effectively would be a police state. I hardly dare mention the term 'National Park' but in the past I have heard the term gleefully used in high places in conjunction with a raft of proposed exclusions and controls in order to prohibit us boaters and anglers from exercising the freedoms that we enjoy today. This is quite probably not what you intend by your suggestions, many of which are sound, but I don't hesitate in suggesting that there are those who would relish greater control and power than most of us would regard as desirable.

Attracting more affluent customers is no bad thing but surely not at the expense of the less well keeled.