Broads & Technology

[rightsaidfred]

Robin, Can I suggest a lay down in a darkened room and then next time you are afloat leave all the gizmos and gadgets at home and actually enjoy the Broads as they are for what they are, you seem to have forgotten the whole point and purpose of boating on the Broads and are proposing most peoples worst nightmare.

                                Fred

 

[JanetAnne]

Steady on a bit chaps! I quite like Robins debates and without a bit of technology I wouldn't get to enjoy the 'Captains Blog' films.

Its far better that we are able to discuss this sort of thing here and use our shared views to hopefully shape any such new technology before it arrives, as arrive it will.

Whilst I am very happy to stick my bow in the reeds and pretend its not happening I am also painfully aware that the next generation seem unable to even tie their shoelaces without an 'app'! And, as we age, it is them that will bring the technology that is so normal and integral to their existence along to the broads with them!

 

 

 

[JennyMorgan]

Going back to a reasonable use, maybe, of technology. People do use chart plotters on the Broads and, linked to a computer, information regarding tides, bridge heights and navigation issues, well, all very reasonable. To some degree it becomes 'toys for the boys' but the information could be helpful to those onboard. The 'big brother' implications, possibly helpful to the host yard and rescue services, well, will it really happen? Would people really want it to happen? I see Robin's suggestions as largely academic, all perfectly feasible, interesting theories and speculations, but if people really thought that their every move was being monitored then I suspect holiday bookings would plummet disastrously. 

[Speleologist]

I agree, it's an interesting debate and a lot of fun to have it. I've said quite a bit already but I will stress one point. As a society we have a tendency to rush headlong into embracing technology without ever considering the privacy and security issues.Apart from the fact that I have absolutely no interest in the use of the technologies mentioned for my own convenience, I absolutely reject the idea of any RFID or other system that can auto bill, or track my movements. I would simply not be prepared to compromise my security and privacy to that extent.

[JawsOrca]

Robin's mentioned some valid points IMO.

Some of which are already there like smartphone apps which are probably really helpful to newbies and help aid local businesses which has got to be good thing right? (I.e these show you where the nearest pub is). The broads will move into the modern world but I think it's unlikely to move too quickly (Condisering Nofolk just got it's first dual carrageway to london!!.

I was surprised to see LED signs on the bridges down south (which give an estimated time to opening (kinda) ) when they first appeared and it would be neat to have a clear bridge height reading to know for sure certainly around ludham and yarmouth which can be a busy sections.  

Bluechart technology already allows for navigation around obstructions (although obviously the broads aren't mapped) which connected up to an autohelm will keep the boat on the course so if mapped for breydon such technology could force boats on course. (http://www.garmin.com/uk/maps/bluechart).. It also has tide charts built in so no reason why similar can be developed and deployed on a touch screen on the helm (and then it's only a simple bit of programming which can alert the helmsmen if technically they are too early and don't have enough water).

I make it clear that my boat has no modern things on there (geez we don't even have a TV!!) other than safety things because I really enjoy the broads for getting away from the modern world.  Yeah I do kinda hope we don't go the extremes of GPS trackers on boats for whatever use but technology can be employed and arguably should be to aid safety (certainly as boats are getting bigger) and aid tourism.

[Soundings]

On 2 December 2015 at 22:05:38, JennyMorgan said:

I must be a Luddite! This blossoming dependence on technology, for me is a real turn off! When on holiday I leave the laptop at home and although I take a mobile it tends to stay turned off. Of choice I would consign my mobile to a lead lined bucket, the phone sealed in concrete, for the duration. I do take a radio but a TV afloat, no way! Each to their own but I reckon a holiday is about being away from such distractions.

Spot on JM, I could not agree more. Regrettably the area is changing and despite what some might think I believe it is changing fast - it is Dave's plan to keep people employed. Look at the building that is going on in our area and then the roads being improved. Whether or not it really is needed is a personal thing but sure as eggs are eggs the tech revolution will come with it (is it not here already to a point?). For what it is worth we have had a very small development here at Potter and from what we can work out the majority of the homes have been sold to retirees. Its that the idea? I though locals needed houses!

I know you will hate me for saying this, and I hope I am wrong, but development of the area could well lead to the Broads becoming a linear marina full of overpriced boats paying inflated fees. Come back all ye woodies I say

[JanetAnne]

51 minutes ago, Soundings said:

. Come back all ye woodies I say

You rang?

[LondonRascal]

Come people, it is 'off season' we all need a good debate, sharing of opinions and rants to keep us warm...

In all honestly, I would not like to 'boat' under the terms of the system I had talked of - it would not be a theme park, but it would be sterile.  In effect it would be akin to going to an airport - trying to be slick and easy and a destination in itself -  but actually a right pain. Having money taken from you left right and centre from the car park operator, to the airline and 'add on' charges - right down to the shop where you just want a coffee and find it is twice the cost of the high street.  It all costs so should be better right? No, you're left just wanting to get away from the place rather than enjoy the experience.

Back to the Broads,  you might have quieter rivers because there are fewer boats, you would have more moorings all well kept and pretty with their amenities all lined up in neat rows waiting for the boaters who never really did come to use them. It is not really 'big brother' but it would not be very fair. It would drive smaller hire fleets out of business, result in a great number of people no longer being able to afford to use their boat - or at least go very far in it to official moorings - at the end of the day it is not very Norfolk is it?

I wanted to see what people thought about some ideas that grew in my mind so I put them here for people to comment on and didn't you just.

You see, living in London and having once worked as a Finance Officer for a local authority in their parking department, it is very easy to think up new ways to fund things and at the end of the day not care two hoots about the people such changes might affect.  It would be in the short term a win win situation for the Broads Authority coffers, it would mean investors and partners to the scheme could see a way they could have their money paid back but also look good and 'environmentally responsible' to fund a project in a new 'National Park'.   But in that job I had, I grew tired of the lies and doing things that were just about within the rules (knowing a box junction was wrongly painted so any fines issues were technically void because if anyone appealed to the Parking Adjudicator they would win but letting things go until - if - someone did).  It is why I leaked a lot of things to my then local MP about covering up consultations and fake answers to questionnaires where apparently residents had 'overwhelmingly wished for more parking restrictions' etc etc.  I lost my job, but my conscious was clear.

I do think the current tolls system should be overhauled and charged based upon length of boat - nice and simple and I also think there should be more transparency in the charging structure and more fairness for a small dinghy with an outboard compared to one with oars.

However,  I also  think that it is fair that if you do wrong you should face a penalty - if you have a boat and do not renew your toll it should not take ages for anything to be done about it.  It also should not take a lot of paperwork or man hours.  So if you can fine someone for parking in the wrong place, or parking in a residential street without a valid residents parking permit - why can't you do that if someone has a boat without a valid toll?  And why should it be the case someone can overstay moorings and it take a lot of work, verbal or written warnings to have them leave or 'change their ways'?

If you had a more automated system it is not being Orwellian, it is just making it fairer for the vast majority who have valid tolls and don't overstay moorings because penalties can be issued faster and with less work going into their issuance the rule breaker gets punished faster and the rule keeper has better value for money in their toll.

As for all my other suggestions - some again would be nice, as far as the App I spoke of goes because that can add real value to someone's visit.  I do wonder though how the Broads Authority plan to keep up with their current obligations and pay for a host of other things, like getting involved in legal issues, planning too not to mention tourism and the promotion of the area within their current funding framework.  It just seems to me like something, one day will have to give and when it does there is going to be a lot of head scratching wondering how it all fell apart.

The Broads is used in the main for enjoyment, holiday makers, fishermen, day trippers - you name it, but I know or no other river system where such demands are placed upon it and are so concentrated in areas with so many interests needing to be balanced.

[marshman]

As someone once said, we all like a bit of fantasy in our lives!

It will change here, but thankfully a bit slower than elsewhere. 

But despite that the Broads will still be what it is now - a peaceful haven for humans and wildlife alike.

I was brought up here and having returned, love the area and the atmosphere. In reality it has not really changed much and I love it that way, and indeed so do many others.

The Broads itself will never be a major holiday destination - it is not just big enough , but I like the blend of recreation and burgeoning new industry around Norwich - and lets hope it stays that way.

And actually i think it will - its all a bit inbred into the system. Thank goodness!!!

[Saily]

Thanks for that last post, Robin - you've just redeemed yourself in the eyes of this reader

For a while you had me thinking these were serious proposals, which although I knew they would never come about in my lifetime at least gave me an opportunity to express an opinion, and I did! (and it seems many others hold similar views to mine)

Now you've explained the background to your thinking I understand your approach much better, and as others have said, it's been an interesting exercise in the quiet season - good thread

Good to know you like it the way it is - let's use appropriate tech toys, but keep a careful eye that they're not employed for their own sake....

Merry Christmas 

[MauriceMynah]

Ok Robin, I agree, meaningful debate is the life blood of a good forum, especially in these winter months. So! It is after conciderable thought, reflection and research that I have my  'seasonal' reply to the question of these proposals being a good idea...

 

Ohhh nooo it isn't!

    

[Bound2Please]

For all the modern technology would it stop fault code ID 10T

[MauriceMynah]

Charlie,  Have you not heard the IT support's acronym "PICNIC" ?

[BroadScot]

Hi folks,

You have to remember Robin hails from the fast moving capital which is London. They do everything quickly there, IF you are in the BUS lane that is! Remembering that I hail from the land of inventors check an old posting of mine in Jokes, all that Robin has said with the techo now available IS possible....god forbid.  Yes I use technology, I can alter your posts from hundreds of miles away if need be. I can mention also, that there are still a few Calenders for SALE They have to do with the Techo of this site, like help pay to run it! 

Now where was I? Ah yes, I think a few of Robin's ideas are more than feasible, but should be put to test first in his own back yard that is the River Thames and tributaries. That way by the Year 2100 Norfolk and Suffolk will be ready for such techo wonders.

My final thought on all things techo is, with all the dredging up on Hickling Broad will all the water sook its way up from Potter Heigham Bridge and leave a great big arch where a lot more hire boats can/will get through? Nope, thought not! Back to the technology drawing boards!

Iain.

[JawsOrca]

Iain, You forgot the link to buy:

http://shop.norfolkbroadsnetwork.com/index.html

By before it's too late and you will so regret it.. (Erm what's the other key words..oh) Yup they are as cheap as anything.. perfect erm stocking fillers (if you have big stockings)..

[BroadScot]

2 minutes ago, JawsOrca said:

Iain, You forgot the link to buy:

http://shop.norfolkbroadsnetwork.com/index.html

By before it's too late and you will so regret it.. (Erm what's the other key words..oh) Yup they are as cheap as anything.. perfect erm stocking fillers (if you have big stockings)..

Ooops thanks for that Alan, so I did!

Iain

[vanessan]

There is little doubt in my mind that many of Robin's ideas will eventually come to pass and my initial thought was 'please, not in my Broads lifetime'! However, if there was a way to penalise the overstayers, constant speeders etc more quickly, that would certainly get a thumbs up from me. The idea of mooring charges being taken automatically leads to another debate though - should BA moorings still be free?

I'm not sure I like the idea of full technology being a draw to 'more affluent boaters', that could possibly mean more boats that some would consider not really suitable to the Broads or put hiring a boat out of the reach of some. As things are now, there is something for everyone and I hope that doesn't change for a long while.

[deebee29]

You also forgot to mention Iain that the calendars are excellent quality with some brilliant photos of the Broads

[BroadScot]

1 minute ago, deebee29 said:

You also forgot to mention Iain that the calendars are excellent quality with some brilliant photos of the Broads

True, Dave, very true indeed! 

[senator]

In the not so distant future we will get a parking fine through the post if we stop on a double yellow for 2 minutes in a back road at 2 am to post a letter, we will get our speeding fine through the post as soon as we hit 73 mph on the motorway, at 12.01am on the day our car tax is due, which we don't remember anymore as there is no tax disc, we will get our fine for non payment.

Not a lot you can do if you have to do it but if you choose to do it, like boating, why would you bother if you are going to be subjected to the above type of scrutiny. Much as those in power would love more power and will sell the extra revenue stream, I rather think it will result in an early adoption of full national park status, given there will be no boats anyway.  

 

[LondonRascal]

If we take cars for a moment and think away from the Broads, the only reason people do 'bend the rules' is because they know the chances of being caught are slim.  Now some decide to take this risk more than others which may increase the risk of being caught out and they may well get away with it over many months or years and then there is someone who in the main sticks to the rules and on one occasion does not and right away gets caught causing them even more annoyance. 

Having said the above, if it were the case that you knew right from the outset of the first parking restrictions you would have been spotted and fined by a physical ‘parking warden' at any time, and at any location - would people have taken the risk to park where they should not?. 

We now live in a world where increasingly it is hard to avoid being caught out, but it is the fact perhaps it is automated that causes the biggest annoyance since there is very little empathy – but it is not always automated. I remember seeing CCTV operators who would have cameras focused on box junctions (they make money you see, keeping an eye on a high street and shoppers for crime does not) and waiting for someone to enter and stop - just for 5 seconds perhaps - and click a button which took two still frames and began the process of a fine being issued.  

Upon appeal the driver could see the footage and be told “You may enter a yellow box junction when your exit is clear and there is enough space on the other side of the junction for your vehicle to clear the box completely without stopping.” Since they had driven into it with traffic movingly slowly which then stopped for a moment and then carried on, is no defence – pay up you can see why the payment office had bullet proof glass and two security guards. 

Should that sort of tactic be used on the Broads – no – but I think that if a boat was moored (even in wintertime) on a 24hr mooring for three days straight it should be made easier to give a penalty to the owner.  Equally if the Toll ran out in April and come June was still not renewed I think it should be easier and faster to issue a penalty and have a raft of measure available to escalate things without there having to be Court cases and all the resultant costs they cause. 

Technology really can help but it can also be a hindrance I accept.  It does not even need to be gadgets that can change things for people - wouldn’t it be nice if the Broads Authority used on of their steel barges used to take dredging spoil away moored at Ludham Bridge, or St. Benet’s for example and when a report of ice was received someone drove to it, started it up and went off to cruise through the ice and disperse it even if it was just so one person could navigate their boat along a stretch of river for no other reason than because they should be able to.

[ChrisB]

Ice breaking is not a good idea in areas of leisure boating. Proper ice breakers as used for shipping partially ride up on the ice to break it. Using a mud wherry would ram the ice into moored vessels damaging gel coat and scoring planks on wooden ones. Furthermore it would refreeze in no time at all. I have had a few moments with ice in Stalham Dyke and just don't risk it any more.

[senator]

The problem with absolute measures is there is no alternative than to have an absolute line. If that line for instance was for a 24 hour mooring was say 3 hours after the 24 hrs than it becomes a 27 hour mooring. if the speed limit can be exceeded by 10% before the fine is triggered then the speed limit becomes 6.6 mph, if you allow 1 month of grace on the toll payment then the tolls are due on May 1st.

 

[troutman62]

On 02/12/2015, 14:24:08, LondonRascal said:

Recently commenting on the topic about Richardson;'s and EE got me wondering about how technology can be used on the Broads so felt best to start a separate topic.

What can make the Broads stand out and be more accessible to many visitors is more technology – but useful tech that people will want to use and is feature rich to aid their time on the Broads in many ways.

It would be a bold move; take some money to achieve and need some ‘fresh forward thinkers’ to work at the Broads Authority, but I think could really help the area, wildlife and visitors. 

The Broads Authority could have at popular moorings interactive screens these would be work alongside a new App for phones and tablets.  These would, for example feature walks from the moorings and information on what to expect about the wildlife you will see – conservation work and what you can do to assist – a ‘tap to donate’ for example.

As one used the app for walks, it would show the map and the route on it and using GPS would keep you on track, information could then be shown as to where you are like how the marshland is drained perhaps a link Wikipedia about drainage pumps...Simple but powerful stuff. 

It could provide tide times for those wanting to travel through Yarmouth, the location of the nearest place to eat and drink - it could provide a direct link to the Broads Authority to report anything from a speeding boat, to an obstruction in the river with an ‘upload photo’ option to assist in the report and in one tap all your location data is shared too so no worry about trying to describe a location.  The possibilities are huge with local organisations being able to add information, advertise and the like too.

Imagine mooring at How Hill and being able to know with a simple tap what the clearance was at Ludham Bridge because a new ‘smart’ senor system had been installed which provided real time digital read out of the height at the bridge, and through the Web provided this data pushed to the App.  

Or how about you wanted to cruise to Acle – tap your start point and destination on the map and get a route showing your ETA complete with a real time progress along the route as you cruised.  Should it be calculated that sunset would happen before your arrival the route would be cancelled and alternative mooring locations shown with an explicit warning that would be prominent not to cruise after sunset.

If the moorings were fitted with my ‘smart mooring’ system I’ve previously spoken of, it would be able to displace how many boats where moored and if there was any space.  Naturally it would also provide details of what amenities would be found at the mooring such as electricity (and with my plan WiFi, Water and refuse collection).

Finally as a navigation aid it would show a ‘rolling road’ as a green strip to follow as one went over Breydon Water – should you deviate outside of this and get too close to posts an audible warning would trigger and not stop until the course was corrected thus reducing the risk of going outside the channel posts.

Once all of this would have been impossible or require separate units, now its just code that is needed and existing technology already found in tablets – Google maps, GPS etc.  Ok so sure my idea about having RF readers at moorings to charge for stays and count boats etc along with the bridge height sensor system is a little more complicated but the things exist – it does not need inventing – hell I even built a sensor system in secondary school for people with visual impairments to know when a cup was filled with water so not to overfill – having a system that used the height of the water to the height available under a bridge and linked to the Web is not earth shatteringinly complicated.

No good to me mate !

Wouldn't have a "smart" phone as a gift. Never had an app and probably never will. I'd have to join the ranks of the living dead who walk about stroking their phones for hours on end. No facebook or twitter either for Troutman, he don't tweet .  Don't like self promotion.

These sort of technological ideas would ruin the Broads experience for me.

[Warp]

I write software for a living so I do not count myself a luddite or technophobe. I do think that the raw data feeds should be made freely available on things like water levels at various points (not just the bridges). This could then be used by various navigation apps etc. This would also allow the distributors of the data to benefit from community analysis otherwise unavailable to them. I do think that the 3/4G coverage could also be something the BA could assist with on planning especially in some of the NIMBY dead zones.

That is as far as I would go with it though. I do not think the BA would prove competent at bespoke apps and would blow a lot of money to get not very far. They would do very well to provide the raw data and let others use it in creative ways that would not have occurred to them.

Personally, I go to the broads to leave the technology behind and go back to a 'simpler' era where what counted was physical, present and to a larger degree self-evident or depended on correct knowledge. So I would not want to see interactive screens installed for example. They would inevitably not be replaced before they became obsolete or broken. I would like any such to be opt-in so those that want to use it can do so without it being directly imposed on the immediate environment.

I would count Salhouse as an example of how things should be done. In the large part provide access to nature to allow people to be a part of it, discover it and value it. The physical layout of paths guides people to discover certain aspects where some discreet signage educates and informs. This is better than the old fashioned and largely discredited 'environmental' policy of excluding people from the environment (often the very people who know how to care for it correctly). To get people to care about the environment enough to adjust their behaviour you have to let them be a part of it. To get them to engage with it you need to get their heads up from the screens and onto their real surroundings by letting them discover it for themselves.

An inviting boardwalk path leading off into the reads is far more enticing to people than an app describing exactly what they will find at the end of it. Along the way they may even have unguided thoughts of their own...