Big Changes Ahead

[Guest]

1 hour ago, brundallNavy said:

We had a Volvo truck engine modified to run a 1000v generator and it was a pain in the backside and proved very unreliable.

Did whoever modified the engine spend the same amount of money that Volvo does in research and development then reliability trials on many engines to ensure the modification from a truck engine was OK, or was it a "one off"?

[LondonRascal]

Well thanks for the comments and thoughts and advice this has attracted – not a great deal to say today but I am leaning toward the other boat (boat 2) but I have been looking last night into the Yanmar engines.

It is fair to say that with engine manufacture you will have the fans and then those who think you must be mad. One thing that always makes me smile is when people refer to engines as being ‘bullet proof’ and not letting them down (insert list shocking but true events) and still the old girl went on smooth as butter they say.  

Engines for many years now have been developed and manufactured with such fine tolerances and often are derived from other markets before being marinised. As Neil said how far and varied Volvo engines have got, but it also depends on location and what is popular in your country. We don’t see as man pleasure craft here with CATS or Cummins in – yet in America they are everywhere and so many swear by them.  

Anyway, I was going over some of the photos of boat 1 (CAT engined model) and I can see on both engines there has been some works on the front where what appears to be the oil cooler is (located under the coolant header tank). The paint has been removed around the gasket and nuts, then you can see gasket sealant goo has been forced out as the nuts were then torqued down. This was not removed and once the job was complete the paint was not re-applied. This then is like an ‘open wound’ waiting for corrosion to set in to this area.

I think generally this boat suffers from a lot of salt mist getting into her engine bay as many models I see have more corrosion generally than other boats of similar age.

There are a number of other things on the first boat that would need attending to some of which are minor and to be expected, but the fact the Copper Coat on the hull was not in the best of shape in 2015 can only have gotten worse now, if I was to opt for this boat that would need addressing. It is a big job and expensive stuff to buy let alone have applied and one would have hoped it last for more than 7 years, but it has begun to peel and crack and there are numerous air bubbles under the surface telling me it was never applied satisfactorily to begin.  I understand that Copper Coat would need to be removed if one reverted back to standard anti-foul too.

Of course this sort of things can be calculated into to negotiations on price but boat 2 seems a bit more ‘looked after’ in so far as she has a number of expensive improvements but this too might not all be good. In 2012 she had an interested purchaser, had a survey done...So why did they not buy it?

An old sailor might take me to one side and tell me how when you buy a boat you cannot expect things to be all right all of the time, and I would agree but this is an awful lot of money to consider spending so I do want to find something decent, or I will perhaps have to consider a smaller type and very different boat perhaps a Broom 44 and spend half as much, but I don’t think I would be as happy. I know it might be a niche taste, but the Traders have such warm and inviting interiors with their lovely woodwork and the large accommodation.

I found this interesting report http://www.powerequipment.com.au/yanmar-the-only-engine-to-last-the-distance/ from a Fisherman in New Zeland of the Yanmar (6CXM-GTE2) Engine on Boat 2.  out of one boat and into another at 4,000hrs - his previous boat had one with 48,000hrs was taken out and put in a fellow fisherman's boat, regular oil and filter changes seems the secret.

[grendel]

my Volvo (car) engine is at 200,000 miles now- if you average it out at 40mph that is 5000 hours of use, with just regular oil changes and minimal maintenance (air and oil filters)

[Malanka]

Robin, its a moot point but, its perfectly feasable to be cossetted along in lexus like comfort in a rather nifty, rather sexy, beautiful, very very fast and superb sounding total waste of money called a sports car. I know I do it every day to work....LOL

In fact Fiona and I did just that in the sexy lady from coventry for ten hours on the way to and from our last (gearbox crunching) trip, the seats for long journeys were actually more comfortable than the normal mode of transport (Lexus 450 RX).

 

I think a more suitable retort wouild be I simply don't care to go that fast. If you did you would be looking at a Princess and 33 Kts. Still luxurious but is the significant increase in speed worth that huge increase in costs and associated maintenance for ten hours a year at 33 kts. I think you're absolutely right to go for your dream. Its your wishes and wants here, not needs, so stay on your track to your dream.... Keep going for it. 

 

Folks that follow the train of thougtht you mention are those that go looking for a 40 ft Bavarian and end up buying a Princess 60'.

Loving the evolving story too. Its kind of a vicarious journey for me too.

M

[BrundallNavy]

9 hours ago, Philosophical said:

Did whoever modified the engine spend the same amount of money that Volvo does in research and development then reliability trials on many engines to ensure the modification from a truck engine was OK, or was it a "one off"?

We had 5 modified, the trouble stems from the fact it runs at a constant speed all the time unlike a truck and was encased in a soundproof box. Then put it on metal wheels and it's not a happy bunny.

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, brundallNavy said:

We had 5 modified, the trouble stems from the fact it runs at a constant speed all the time unlike a truck and was encased in a soundproof box. Then put it on metal wheels and it's not a happy bunny.

I hope you've managed to work through the problems. 

[finny]

Yep Dennis bin trucks do have a volvo power train  2.5 mpg and drink oil for fun - unlike the Mercedes counterpart ................everything that glitters aint Gold 

Finny

[tjg1677]

Hi robin.

Have been following this with keen interest but so far have been very restrained in jumping in.

The important thing to know about marine diesels is that the shorter  the stroke,  the higher the revs, the lighter the engine then it aint going to last compared to an engine of the opposite qualities. I was in marine engineering for 20 years and saw the old school slow revving, long stroke plodders replaced by the more modern counterparts i.e. cat, cummins, scania, volvo etc. Was this a good move? In a word- no.

Example. Small fishing boats in grimsby that had been running engines like Gardner's and kelvins for over 40 years, were persuaded by the new school manufacturers to change to them promising low maintenance costs and fuel efficiency. Did this materialise - no! In fact after anywhete between 5 and 7 years they were looking for a replacement for them.

Moral of the story, high revving short stroke engines are bad news in my experience in the marine environment and personally i do not like cats nor cummins for that reason. Yanmars to me on the other hand always seemed to be a reasonable compromise between a modern and old school engine.

I know i may sound like a luddite and very old school where this is concerned but 20 years experience teaches you a lot and having seen the shift from the old to the new, it left me quite unimpressed. Naturally in a boat things are diffetent as it is difficult to fit the larger, heavier older engines and i am not recommending any brand here but the principal applies. Thats why beta, nanni etc are successful engines, they are based on tried and tested kubota industrial engines that are  designed to run all day long at varying loads and are capabale of sustaining high power outputs for long periods reliably as oppised to an over turbocharged, screaming engine that our american cousins favour.

So do my opinions seem biased. Yup - dead rigjt they do and i unashamedly admit they are but more importantly this bias is based on experience as opposed to hearsay but i do emphasise is only my opinion.

Just to give you a bit of food for thought mate.....

Cheers

Trev

[LondonRascal]

Trev, thanks for the input - it what makes this community such a great place, many people with various skills and ideas to put in and help.

So another update, I've had some more information and a 2012 Survey sent to me on boat 2. To avoid confusion here Boat 1 is named ‘Fari Trader’ and boat 2 is named ‘Lily Jean’.

The Survey Report on Fair Trader was commissioned by the owners and not part of a pre-purchase survey. It had 3 recommendations – two of which were to do with the area of Osmosis on the Starboard side below the chine.  Have the boat out of the water if possible over winter, monitor the Osmosis blistering and continue with the ongoing maintenance program generally. 

The Survey Report for LilyJean was commissioned by the prospecting buyer in 2012. Who knows if it was a result of this or not, but that transaction did not proceed. The Survey Report has 12 recommendations – two serious, the others not and they are:

Note:

1. A condition which requires immediate repair which if left unattended may affect the safety of the vessel. These recommendations should be undertaken before the vessel is used again.
2. A condition which may require repair or renewal within an expected time period of one sailing season (March to October) or similar. This may include major items. No guarantee can be given that items will last for this period of time.
3. A condition which requires repair or renewal in order to enhance the cosmetic appearance of the vessel

1A/   The waste tank discharge shut off valve should be serviced.

2A/   Access should be improved to the forward heads discharge shut off valve and master cabin heads discharge valve. The forward heads discharge shut off valve  and master cabin heads discharge shut off valve should be tested in order to  ensure their integrity.

3A/   As a precaution the air conditioning shut off valve flexible hose, located aft of  the port engine, should be replaced.

4B/   The single blister (6mm) should be ground out, dried and the cavity filled and  faired with an epoxy.

5B/   The wear to the rudder bearings should be further investigated and remedial work undertaken in order to avoid unsceduled maintenance.

6B/   The undersides should be prepared to a good standard prior to providing an pplication of anti-fouling.      

7B/   The sacrificial anodes should be replaced

8B/   The earthing plate should be cleaned of anti fouling contamination.

9B/   The minor corrosion to the external portlight frames should be further  investigated and remedial work undertaken.

10C/ The rust staining adjoining the portlights should be removed as and where necessary in order to be restored to a good standard of presentation.

11C/ The above waterline hull should be cleaned in order to be restored to a good standard of presentation.

12C/  The bathing platform teak overlay should be cleaned in order to be restored to a  good standard of presentation.

Blimey – you think that is a great deal of issues and problems, but let’s narrow it down so far as I see it actually narrows down to only three issues:

1. The waste tank discharge shut off valves are effectively sea-cocks, I’d rather not simple service them but prefer to have them removed and new ones put in and they are not crazy expensive items to procure. The actual problem and issue I find more intriguing is in the body of the report whereby it states:

“The adjoining shut off valves and engine sea cocks were inspected. The shut off valves and sea cocks were tested however the forward heads discharge shut off valve and master cabin heads discharge valve were found to be obstructed preventing satisfactory access in the event of emergency closure being required, or for testing purposes."

Obstructed preventing satisfactory access – hmm. Now this to me says that they have sat wherever they are since 2002 and nobody has been able to get to them to test them, and why might that be? I bet you because some numpty in the building of the boat built something over them, be it furniture, toilet pedestal so the real issue is going to be getting the access to them and providing an inspection hatch.

2. The rudder bearings – I wonder if they have been addressed and if not how one can gain access to drop the rudders. I suspect through the aft cabin sole and since the boat has an auto-helm and the drivers for this would need to have been fixed to the rudder system, access can’t be too painful.

3. The corrosion of the port lights. What bothers me here is something has gone wrong, they should be Stainless and are corroding so is it the fixtures or actual frame and since the company that original built the boats has folded, although there is another now taking on these as ‘Explorers’ how  easy and at what cost could new port lights be found. These sort of things I only will know when I inspect the boat personally (hopefully in the next 10-14 days). If it is just some of the fixtures that is not so much of an issue, if it is the frames of the port lights this is a biggy and potentially will allow water in too. 

Now here is my best guess. Back in 2012 these boats were silly priced and I recon the seller was holding out on not reducing the price down enough and the buyer walked away. 5 years later the boat has dropped in value considerably and the general ‘boat market’ has not had the best of times. It might well be that following that report, the owner bucked up their ideas as to maintenance and did themselves carry out the works and if they say they did I won’t just take their word by will want to see evidence and invoices of such.

If however they did not carry out the work other than to ensure the anodes are sorted, the anti-foul is done, the decks are cleaned, the gel coat has a cut and polish and the issues with the tank discharge valves, port lights and rudder bearings have been left then I am actually a little pleased – as I can have a far bigger bargaining tool on this boat than Fair Trader who is seemingly far more sound. 

I like Lily Jean a lot more than Fair Trader. She has a more recent and comprehensive navigation package, she has a nicer and more practical layout with a settee and arm chair but then a fixed table and seating to starboard for eating at. She has a Williams Rib, a larger sized fridge freezer, dishwater, washer dryer and nicer heads and the helm is to port which I much prefer and am used to than with many a sea boat being to starboard. But above all her engines and drive train just simply has not seen the long hard working hours of Fair Trader.  Even if (and it does not seem to be the case) things like oil and filter changes had not been done as should at 250hr intervals, she has only done 560hrs so it almost like saying if she only had one fluid change all is not lost.

The CATs on Fair Trader are approaching 2,000hrs of use that goes for the gear boxes too, bearings and seals everything on her has been used more, longer and she has travelled further. I have a gut feeling that something might happen that I will suddenly need to attend to and it cost a fortune because something mechanical has gone bad and I need a CAT specialist to come in. 

LilyJean has her flaws – but I think I could enquire on every Trader in the country and of this vintage and fine issues but I am more happy dealing with sea cocks, bearings and polishing gel coat than worrying about what’s under the cabin sole. 

So, what are the collective thoughts on the above?

(Some recent photos I was sent below of LilyJean )

[grendel]

look at that - there is even places to store the fenders.

11 minutes ago, LondonRascal said:

 

[ChrisB]

I am not a marine engineer but I am a Mechanical Engineer. To my mind I cant see a lot of difference. If properly designed and balanced revs should do no harm. As for long Vs short stroke surely the bores will suffer more in a long stroke as piston velocity must be higher. That is per revolution it has further to travel.

[smellyloo]

This is a really facinating thread, and thanks LR for sharing your journey.

My feelings are that the vessels under consideration are in that "twilight" bracket.

Too old and cheap for the wealthy to consider BUT too expensive for the average punter.

For this reason they do seem to remain un-sold for lengthy periods, this in itself would concern me as I would like to think I could sell it on quickly to realise my considerable investment.

If you were living on board then I would fully understand the need for space but if your acquiring a hobby/bolt hole residence I would have thought a slightly more modest size would give the same service at a considerably more affordable cost.

However these are my musings and from your detailed writings I can see that you have put much effort and thought into selecting your ideal ship. The ones you are considering look absolutely wonderful and I wish I were in a position  to consider such a vessel.

[tjg1677]

26 minutes ago, ChrisB said:

I am not a marine engineer but I am a Mechanical Engineer. To my mind I cant see a lot of difference. If properly designed and balanced revs should do no harm. As for long Vs short stroke surely the bores will suffer more in a long stroke as piston velocity must be higher. That is per revolution it has further to travel.

Hi chris.

Long stroke engines by design are far lower revving ergo giving more torque for lower  revs.  On a short stroke engine the revs are upped to equal the torque that the ls version would give. Thetefore the lower reving engine whilst having a longer stroke does in fact have a lower piston velocity.

Two very extreme examples at opposite ends of the spectrum. A supertanker diesel which is the size of a house runs at less than 100 rpm at full power. A napier deltic can run as high as 3000rpm. Both are two stroke engines incidentally, one very long stroke, the other very short stroke but it illustrates the difference.

[Snowy]

It’s just a thought Robin, but is there anyone in the NBN that you know and trust who lives near to Lily Jean, could go and act as a “second buyer”  sometimes people get told different things to the point of the broker might tell you what you want to hear

but could he remember what he’s told one person to another  ?

I’m as dodgy as they come so think everyone else is dodgy ;)

 

[WherryNice]

I am a vehicle technician and although not marine trained I should imagine the principals are the same in boat engines as cars. I agree with ChrisB in that the bores and piston rings etc have a harder time in a long stroke engine as they travel at higher speed and further than those in short stroke motors. I suspect the longevity of the older Gardner engines etc is down to their lower states of tune more than anything, unfortunatly it is a fact that high performance tends to come at the cost of longevity and/reliability.
The next point I would make it that low hours/miles does not mean an engine is in better condition that one that has higher hours/miles, an engine that has sat with old oil(containing all sorts of acids, condensation and god knows what else in it can easily be in a worse state than one that has worked hard but had maintainence on shedule. This is particularly true of turbo chargers where the shaft bearings can dry right out then be spun up to many many thousands of rpm in an instant on an over enthusiastic start up(it doesnt have to be on boost either, the shaft spins as soon as exhaust gas hits it) Just something (else)to consider....

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[Jonathan]

Robin,

Firstly let me say that I have no idea what I’m talking about when it comes to boats and you have obviously put a lot of time and effort into your research, but the report details would worry me!

Some (uninformed) thoughts follow:

If the sea cocks have not been tested or exercised because of poor access, then replacing them might be an “interesting” job.

If the anodes have needed replacing then that might have caused the rudder bearing (and possibly other) problems.

The owners seem to have spent a lot of money on gadgets.  You have mentioned navigation equipment, interior accommodation items and the rib, but it sounds like they have neglected the routine maintenance.  To my mind, they have had their priorities wrong, and that rings alarm bells for me too.

The stern photograph shows the name “Lily Jean”.

Unfortunately, none of the photographs seem to show anything that the report talks about so there are no clues about remedial work having been carried out, although if the photographs were taken recently (as you say) then it would have been foolish to lift the boat out and NOT attend to several of those points.

I think you need to go and look in person, and if possible take a marine surveyor with you, or at the very least a volunteer who “knows a thing or two about boats”, at least then you will know what the current state is, and how many of these jobs have been done.

I don’t want to sound too negative!  I’m enjoying this exciting “journey” with you, and I hope you achieve another of your ambitions!  …. Thoughts for a name:  “Another Ambition”.

[JamesLV]

30 minutes ago, WherryNice said:

I am a vehicle technician and although not marine trained I should imagine the principals are the same in boat engines as cars. I agree with ChrisB in that the bores and piston rings etc have a harder time in a long stroke engine as they travel at higher speed and further than those in short stroke motors. I suspect the longevity of the older Gardner engines etc is down to their lower states of tune more than anything, unfortunatly it is a fact that high performance tends to come at the cost of longevity and/reliability.
The next point I would make it that low hours/miles does not mean an engine is in better condition that one that has higher hours/miles, an engine that has sat with old oil(containing all sorts of acids, condensation and god knows what else in it can easily be in a worse state than one that has worked hard but had maintainence on shedule. This is particularly true of turbo chargers where the shaft bearings can dry right out then be spun up to many many thousands of rpm in an instant on an over enthusiastic start up(it doesnt have to be on boost either, the shaft spins as soon as exhaust gas hits it) Just something (else)to consider....

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I have seen an example of this where a friends parents twin Perkins turbo (I believe it was a 79, the year before they went to Volvo Pentax's) Broom which had spent years on Thames at 5mph went up to the Broads and was as such opened en route, the poor old Turbo's I believe were toasted as they'd been oil starved after sitting on basically tickover for years

[LondonRascal]

Smelly Loo: the main cost to consider after purchase is length and weight - since that effects where and how much you will be charged for a lift out.

If I was going to buy a cheaper and older boat let’s say 25 years old at half the cost, while I would have a boat, it would (to me) feel almost as if I was doing it simply to get any old sea boat.

This began for me, looking at boats, working out things maybe 5 years ago now.  But it really ramped up about 18 months ago when I began spending a lot of time looking at various boats, models and so on.  I identified that what I wanted firstly was space so that took me  o begin looking at 45ft plus, it needed and at least 4 berths, ideally 6 and just that requirement really narrowed the market mainly as most power  boat owners seem to prefer something in the 35ft to 40ft range and are happy with a 4 berth.

Let’s say I did get a 25 year old, 44ft at this sort of age attention and care tends to slip down the order of priorities as engines no longer have genuine parts fitted because it is 25 years old now, more owners during her life often means more tinkering and DIY jobs have been done – but it is ok, its 25 years old now so what do you expect?

I save money on the purchase, the excitement soon would soon pass and I would be standing in the saloon one day looking at the dated headlining, upholstery, carpets with my hands on my hips thinking’s ‘it’s all got to be changed’ and then ‘casting my eyes over the dated electronics and knowing was lay beneath my feet. Before I knew it I’d be getting estimates for a re-power and goodness knows what else.

I can’t just accept and make do I guess.

Jonathan: The boat is called Lily Jean that was me making a mistake – cheers for pointing it out lol.

I’d imagine that where these two offending sea cocks are is going to be located will need some deconstruction of the interior at the very least, but more likely actually need some cutting of interior wood and/or fibre glass to get at them and once got at, then fashion an inspection hatch/cover installed. That is labour charges to do a pain in the backside job and that is where you got price drops on your side as a buyer.

I am sure if you went over Surveys from various boats of this age you are going to find issue. I know a different kettle of fish, but do all owners of boats on the Broads have their boats out the water every two years, have all the underwater gear checked, anodes replaces, anti-foul removed and fresh applied? No, just as it goes with many larger sea boats. I get the feeling the owners have not used her much more than short hopes out to the nearest buoy and back on a summers day, and only in recent times wanting to sell have thought 'ahh we need to do some actual work under the water'.

I will be heading for a viewing as soon as I can get time to. With Fair Trader I was going to (should I like the boat when their) skip deposit and survey and trip up the seller with a surprise low offer ‘cash this afternoon’ and it is off your hands. I can’t do that realistically with Lily Jean.

                                                                                                 -----------------------------

I was reading the Yanmar service manual last night (what reverting fun it was) and was surprised to see and then found it was correct, that they recommend a Turbo Wash. You buy what is effectively a very strong detergent from Yanmar, run the engine under load to 80% WOT, remove the air filter and spray the mix into the Turbo – then follow with water. This removes crud and flash boils the water to steam to then clean the Turbo out.  Seems the boating community is split 50/50 on this. Some will point to many cases of doing similar with engines others astounded you would knowing put water into the air intake and Turbo – there is a video on You Tube that made me want to hide behind the sofa watching it happen – but apparently this is all ‘as per the manual’.

Part of the schedule I would have for the boat anyway would be a complete replacements of all sea cocks (and this may make some of you spill your Coffee - with plastic sea cocks)

So if I can get on with two toilet ones first that would help in the long term. I still worry more about engineering in so far as the engines that I know so little about, compared to things like pipes, bearings and valves that are more straight forward.

 

[WherryNice]

Presumeably the turbo wash would also clear out the rest of the intake system as well as once in the turbo inlet it will get blown through the combustion chamber as well. You can or certainly used to be able to buy products in aerosol cans to do similar things to cars too.

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[LondonRascal]

6 minutes ago, WherryNice said:

Presumeably the turbo wash would also clear out the rest of the intake system as well as once in the turbo inlet it will get blown through the combustion chamber as well

Yes, you can but seeing a chap spray a garden hose into a turbo after squirting in dish soap into it did not make me at all comfy and the final freshen up with Febreze was the final straw

 

[Hylander]

It looks as if he is squirting a bottle of Fairy liquid in it.   We will all be singing "I'm forever blowing bubbles" before long......

 

[grendel]

have you ever seen the black smoke that comes out of the back of a car when you squirt redex directly into the carburettor.

[Snowy]

Just now, Hylander said:

It looks as if he is squirting a bottle of Fairy liquid in it.

 

Other makes are available 

[WherryNice]

Im surprised he chuck in capfull of those scent boosters as well.....;)

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[WherryNice]

*didn't*

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