Diesel Scrappage Scheme For Boats?

[JennyMorgan]

There's now talk about it for cars, so why not older boat engines?

http://www.edp24.co.uk/business/should-the-government-pay-people-to-scrap-their-diesel-cars-1-4978419

Just a thought but there are some on the system that exude a fair old plume of toxic fumes that are, if nothing else, pretty darned anti social.

[ChrisB]

The trouble Peter is there are not many petrol engines for boats if you exclude Outboards. Those that are around tend to be really designed for the performance market and have displacements of 5 litres or more and are typically mated to a stern drive unit.

[dnks34]

The issue I have with petrol engines on boats is the 700+ litres of petrol most of these boats carry and the inherant dangers of that amount of petrol in one place.  If petrol installations had to be proffessionally checked yearly maybe over a certain tank storage size then I would feel happier about mooring next to one overnight thats for sure!  

In my opinion there is an over obsession with pollution and emissions.  If we want trucks/cars/busses/powered boats etc which I am all in favour of then we are going to have to accept that a certain amount of pollution cant be avoided.  If we can minimise it then great but trying to eliminate every unpleasant molecule when youve got dirty great big diesel trains running about late at night with 4 people on is somewhat ridiculous. 

In my sceptical view all these things we are told we can and cant do each day is more to do with the people doing it justifying their mostly pointless and expensive jobs than anything else.  

Remember global warming, didnt that turn out to be manipulated rubbish?! 

Why dont we start putting money into the things that really matter.

 

[rightsaidfred]

We have been here before in 2009,  this current round is largely the consequence of  the Ego/PC ambitions of one man who would get rid of cars full stop if he had his way and who has already  created problems for emergency service vehicles in heavily populated areas of London with his bike priority schemes.

Fred  

[thingamybob]

I am not sure without looking it up if bilge blowers are compulsory on petrol boats. If I had a large petrol powered boat I would certainly want one fitted. They usually incorporate a time delay to stop you firing up the engine without blowing the bilges for a few minutes.

However, the amount of pollution in comparison in my view caused by a few diesel boats is negligible in comparison with the majority of the commercial transport pollution especially if the boats are using bio fuel. 

[StillCruising]

I have long felt that like any other statically derived information the diesel / petrol debate as presented can and is biased to the particular agenda of the person / agency's aims. There is a very interesting four page report in the April issue of Which magazine about the relative merits of petrol Vs diesel engine including their use in real life situations as apposed to manufacture test results. For myself I will not be trading in my diesel car or BMC 1.8 on the boat any time soon.

Regards

Bob

[quo vadis]

3 things spring to mind

1 120 gallons of petrol onboard

2 very few petrol points on the broads

3 electrics and water do not mix

that was being sensible what is happening to me 

[MauriceMynah]

15 minutes ago, quo vadis said:

that was being sensible what is happening to me

Yeah, really worrying when that happens, I usually rush off for a beer or six when it happens to me.

[SPEEDTRIPLE]

All of these idiotic claims that deisel is dangerous is absolute crap. Remember when they heavily taxed 4x4s, as they were seriously dangerous for the environment?. Well, if something was really that dangerous for the environment, or anything else for that matter, purely charging more tax DOES`NT automatically make it safer. Yet again, it`s a convenient political con to raise extra revinue already lost due to ill thinking government that gave huge tax breaks to people driving so called environmentally friendly cars, that themselves are now finding out they`ll have their road tax, sorry, "road fund license" fee dramatically increased to cover said lost revinue.  There is absolutely nothing wrong with deisel cars, if there was, what about all the container wagons, box vans, tractors, fork lift trucks, boats, inter city trains, buses and coaches etc etc etc.  The big plus side for any government is that so many people have been watching mind numbing soaps and crap on tv, that they`ve lost the ability to think and act for themselves. Thank good i was born in the late 50s, and grew up during the 60s and 70s, decades where kids could still grow up thinking and acting for themselves.

As for petrol on boats, perfectly safe if all safety precautions are strictly adhered too. I wonder how many people, even on this forum, have had petrol engined cars, sat in their garages connected to their houses, with rusty petrol tanks that feed petrol to the injection system via a perished fuel pipe?. How often do you get under your cars and inspect your fuel storage and delivery systems.........never?. And yet most of you will still say that petrol engined boats are inherantly dangerous?.

[quo vadis]

Fortunately MM I am already in the pub hic 

[MauriceMynah]

It's a funny thing Speedtriple, You put your views forwards and I find myself either agreeing with every word or screaming at the computer that you're wrong. I never seem to find an opinion of yours halfway between the two. On this occasion I'm with you wholeheartedly. The reason that London is suffering from air pollution is that there are too many vehicles in it, flying over it or generally poofing their poo into it. 

Diesel or petrol, it doesn't really matter, they pollute. The rechargeable electric car does too, it just ***** it's poo somewhere else, but it's still poofing it.

 

[dnks34]

A petrol car might carry 60 or 80 ltrs of petrol not the larger quantities a boat could have onboard.  A car could still go bang but maybe not as spectacularly as boat?!  If the car is still on the road it will be mot'd every year so the rusty fuel pipe ends up getting noticed before anything goes wrong.  Also the car isnt going to have shore power, a gas cooker and probably other potential sources of ignition like leisure batteries etc that wouldnt be found on a car.

Petrol boats are very common in the USA but then gas is cheap as chips.  If I lived over there I would most probably be tempted by one.

Im not saying they are all dangerous, each to their own and all that. 

[JanetAnne]

I suspect you will find that the cost to the environment of manufacturing the replacement engine, matching gearbox and all associated parts required to make it fit, the environmental shipping costs getting it to your boat from half way round the world, (container, actual ship, box to send it in) plus the cost of scrapping and recycling your old engine will far outweigh the polution your current engine could produce in the future!

It's the same with cars. 80% of a cars total environment impact is produced in the manufacture of and subsequent disposal of it. The 20% it produces during its average 10 year road life is minimal in comparison! Yet we are all encouraged to buy 'greener' cars 

I'm keeping my old BMC and doing the world a favour 

[JanetAnne]

16 hours ago, JennyMorgan said:

 

Just a thought but there are some on the system that exude a fair old plume of toxic fumes that are, if nothing else, pretty darned anti social.

Are we still talking engines here?  

[Vaughan]

11 hours ago, quo vadis said:

3 things spring to mind

1 120 gallons of petrol onboard

2 very few petrol points on the broads

3 electrics and water do not mix

I would add two more :

4/. Petrol engines produce potentially 100 times more PPM of CO gas in the exhaust than diesel. Rather important when running on a mooring.

5/. Petrol does not burn. It is the vapour, mixed with air, which goes off at the slightest spark and that is what is being held captive in your bilges, all ready to blow.

[MauriceMynah]

This whole issue is a tax on the poor, as not only do the lower paid tend to buy older cars, but now they find that the car they bought has just lost any re-sale value. 

[smellyloo]

Ummmmm ,,,,, The "theres nowt wrong with diesel "ostriches"" fill me with glum thoughts!!

We can of course choose to ignore the high percentage of expert thoughts on this subject

but surely the win win case is the search for clean alternative fuels whilst discouraging the continued use/purchase of polluting vehicles.

Oh yes and spare a thought for the familes living adjacent to the busy inter city roadways who have no way of avoiding letting their children inhale the toxic gases from outside their house.

[thingamybob]

I have looked up the bilge blower issue on the BSS website and it is only advisory that they are fitted. As I said before, if I had a large petrol boat I would fit one. My own boat is petrol powered with an outboard and all the fumes, if any, from the petrol tanks are vented over the side.

I have seen what petrol fumes can do and had an acquaintance who was badly burned due to a flash back on the petrol fumes.

If petrol is treated with respect and handled safely as is the same way with gas I do not find it a problem.

Doing things like refilling an outboard tank in the cockpit is a definite no no. I knew some other people who did this and the fumes found a naked flame and the back end of the boat was burned to the waterline

   

[grendel]

there has been talk on other Forums of a tax on emissions in certain cities, where a 4 year old diesel, or a 13 year old petrol car will be taxed additionally as a high polluter, I find this an awful liberty to assume that an older car will pollute more, as my 18 year old Volvo (petrol) has just been through its MOT and sailed through the emissions with 1ppm CO (200 allowed) at high tickover, and 0 (not measureable- 300 allowed) at normal idle. This is mostly due to the fact that the car is doing 124 miles every day, on motorways at a reasonable speed.

one difference between cars and boats for petrol engines, is that a car does not have an enclosed space around the engine for petrol vapour to build up.

[SPEEDTRIPLE]

11 hours ago, MauriceMynah said:

This whole issue is a tax on the poor, as not only do the lower paid tend to buy older cars, but now they find that the car they bought has just lost any re-sale value.

Absolutely spot on john, my trusty Peugeot 407 deisel is now 10 years old, but with less than 80,000 miles on the clock. My car would now qualify for the old scrappage scheme, yet has many more years of motoring in it. If I were to take advantage of the scrappage scheme, to replace it with a new 508, the new equivalent, would cost me over £20,000 on top of the £2,000 allowance, and would mean a new car would have to be made, transported, and displayed in a showroom which is being heated and lit. But the big issue for me would quite simply be, I just can't, and probably never will be able to afford the £20,000. These schemes are ill thought out, but really and truly are about yet another government con in getting people to spend yet more vat applicable money they can possibly ill afford on something they don't really need.

As for agreeing with me John, this is not the first time, we'll have t put a stop to it soon, or tongues will soon start wagging lol.

[thingamybob]

7 hours ago, Jonzo said:

Yeah that's a major difference.

Also, petrol cars have since the 1990's had a carbon canister which is used to absorb fuel vapors (which is partly why you can no longer 'smell' parked cars) which are then released and fed back into the manifold at startup. The other reason is that UK cars all converted to fuel injection 25 years ago as part of the emissions regs which included the dreaded catalytic converter, and so you don't get the evaporation from carbs like you used to.

 

That is why a bilge blower in my view is essential on an inboard petrol powered boat, despite the fact it is only advisable in the BSS.

[dnks34]

1 hour ago, thingamybob said:

That is why a bilge blower in my view is essential on an inboard petrol powered boat, despite the fact it is only advisable in the BSS.

Thats slightly worrying. Surely petrol vapour collecting in your bilges is quite hazardous?

We have two diesel cars in our household.  

We could have had a petrol and a diesel but then the wife would be at risk of putting the wrong fuel in one of them so I thought it best to keep it simple!! 

Apart from that unless we are talking something with a 5.3L V8 petrol Id prefer the turbo diesel to the standard petrol everytime, I just prefer the way they drive.

I was behind one of those chicken chaser motorbikes earlier with L plates on it.  The fumes coming off that were worse than any run of the mill diesel I have ever been behind. 

[thingamybob]

Just now, dnks34 said:

I was behind one of those chicken chaser motorbikes earlier with L plates on it.  The fumes coming off that were worse than any run of the mill diesel I have ever been behind. 

Yes, the two stroke motorbikes do produce some pollution as they are burning the oil that lubricates them.

Do any knowledgeable members of the forum have any data or details on this type of pollution?

I believe that  it is now illegal to sell a new two stroke outboard in the EU which we are still part of. However it does make me think sometimes in respect of the amount of oil I have to dispose of when I change the oil on my elderly four stroke outboard and the amount of oil it burns in a season whether it may not be just as well to use a two stroke engine using a bio degradable oil at one hundred to one mixture.

Perhaps this could be the subject of a separate thread? 

[TheQ]

Two Stroke oil of today is specially formulated to produce as little smoke as possible, a smokey 2stoke bike is old Knacker and has had a beating for most of it's life probably contributing more to the smoke trail.

Using ex sump oil is probably not a good idea, you've removed it because it's been collecting impurities, it may have metal fragments (tiny) and be acidic.

Incidentaly I add 1 in 200 parts 2SO to diesel as it reduces smoke from old diesels it's quite common in in Old Land Rovers to do this. It was started to replace the lubrication lost when fuels went over to low sulpher fuel which has less lubrication, the side effect of reduced smoke , and slightly less engine noise was a welcome addition.

 Note, it takes a couple of tank fulls to go through before the effect become apparent

[SPEEDTRIPLE]

contrary to popular belief, it is NOT illegal to sell 2 stroke bikes or outboards. They just have t meet stringent emissions regs, much like any other engine, but withe the way 2 strikes work, that is extremely difficult. However, various groups are continuing to do tests etc to see if 2 strikes CAN be made to be environmentally friendly, and they are gradually becoming so.