Carbon Monoxide Alarm

[Viking23]

This report and inquest of the death of a couple at Wroxham revently has probably been published or referenced on this site before, but just in case, here it is.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/591058f840f0b67b04000002/MAIBInvReport9_2017.pdf

 

I'm sure after reading this, and reading about other similar incidents, you will really understand the importance of a CO alarm, the fumes from other vessels or even dying barbeques emit huge amounts of CO and if placed near an open window of any accommodation could cause game over. 

Richard

[dnks34]

I agree theres pros and cons with the different types of units but ive fitted 3 of the combined units in a 37ft space so I feel pretty confident ive got it covered! 

Id certainly rather have the combined units than none at all.  

Before the combined units I had 1 smoke alarm and 1 monoxide alarm in the main living area and nothing in any of the sleeping areas as having 6 seperate units dotted about the boat didnt seem practical so I just sited them centrally.  

The main thing for me was getting rid of the unit Id seen the piece about on fake Britain. 

 

[Malanka]

CO fills a room from the top down so by the time is get to you in bed you're already gone. We had a fire and didn't have a CO alarm now of course we do. The odious thing about CO is that it binds irreversibly to your haemoglobin molecules and only high O2 and hyperbaric treatment will save you if you've had too much. I know what that feels like as the fire showed me. In high CO you take three breaths and you are down . If the alarm is going off get out immediately and only then re-enter without breathing to open windows etc. Don't take a chance it's not worth it. We learned this the hard way... 

 

M

[Mowjo]

On 02/06/2017 at 7:39 AM, JawsOrca said:

Saved by these when our solid stove flue blocked in the middle of the night.. There's no excuses for not having one.. Things may have been different in the old days, single glazing etc... but modern world is far more draft free and natural selection is working better these days.

We have fireangel digital display (http://fireangel.co.uk/products/carbon-monoxide-alarms/co-9d/) this really is one thing to spend money on.  I have no idea why anyone would not have one or have a cheap unbranded one.

If they go off, turn off the gas or other dinosaur drinking device, open the windows, go outside and you will quickly start to wake up..without one then it's goodnight!

Reading the instructions contained within them is probably a good idea too.. as they need to be positioned lower than smoke alarms and probably give you some helpful advice.

I have two of these on my boat and after trying several other brands these are the best by far, I had the Kidde ones before but got a few false readings, I spoke to a friend who's a fire fighter and he told me about the Fireangle, I put them side by side in the cabin and cockpit and got the same Co readings on both, so having a Petrol inboard I now have one in the cabin and one in the cockpit and can see if the Co rises,,

[vanessan]

We have one of the Fireangel on board, I am glad to see they are well recommended. I know it has been discussed whether or not these alarms should become part of the BSS but surely it would be a sensible thing? 

[MauriceMynah]

Compulsory Co alarms, Compulsory smoke alarms, compulsory wearing of life jackets, compulsory boat handling lessons for hirers, compulsory swimming lessons... etc. etc. etc.

Not one of the above is a 'bad idea' the only question is how far do you want to go in making things "compulsory". I will do a risk assessment of my boating habits and will, sometimes, act accordingly. There is a limit to the amount of cotton-wool I want to have forced upon me, and it's already been exceeded.

I have no objection to having a co alarm on my boat, I already have one, but I'm damned if I want to be ordered to have one by some pen-pushing bureaucratic doughnut who's total knowledge of boating was obtained by playing in the bath as a kid.    

[tjg1677]

Just to be pedantic CO is actually very slightly lighter than air and therefore in a perfect world sinks, so on a boat it would collect in the bilges first, just the same as LPG.

However because CO is inevitably a combustion byproduct, if created onboard by an appliance, it will be mixed with hot or warmer air, so will have a tendency to rise. Based on this physics it is probably best to place any detector around half to two thirds up a bulkhead, or alternatively have more than one unit placed at high and low level.

This would also accommodate detection of " cold " gases invading the boat from outside i.e. someone else's engine or heater, as the density could be either side of neutral and could be blown in via an open door / window by a breeze or such like.

I have seen the results of CO poisoning on sadly more than one occasion and it is not nice . I absolutely and utterly advocate these devices, they DO save lives. so go on, do the right thing and fit one asap.

[vanessan]

23 hours ago, MauriceMynah said:

Compulsory Co alarms, Compulsory smoke alarms, compulsory wearing of life jackets, compulsory boat handling lessons for hirers, compulsory swimming lessons... etc. etc. etc.

Not one of the above is a 'bad idea' the only question is how far do you want to go in making things "compulsory". I will do a risk assessment of my boating habits and will, sometimes, act accordingly. There is a limit to the amount of cotton-wool I want to have forced upon me, and it's already been exceeded.

I have no objection to having a co alarm on my boat, I already have one, but I'm damned if I want to be ordered to have one by some pen-pushing bureaucratic doughnut who's total knowledge of boating was obtained by playing in the bath as a kid.    

I understand what you are saying MM but I reckon there may be many private boaters who think themselves immune to the perils of co. You are a long standing boat owner but there will be some new owners who could possibly benefit from co alarms being included in the BSSC. I know rules and regulations often upset people, most of us get frustrated by some beaurocratic nonsense along the way. But if something is put in place that can save lives, that can only be good - in my view.

[BuffaloBill]

We have had both CO and Smoke alarms on board for the last 5 years.

Last year just after we had got home(a 2.1/2hr journey), I had a phone call to say there was an alarm going off on the boat. As this was a Sunday, there was no-one in the Marina office to pop over and see what the problem was. So another 2.1/2 hrs back and it was the CO alarm. No engines or heating or gas or anything else to set it off so I took out the batteries and went home again. Another 2.1/2 hour drive! Several months later(March this year) it went off again just as we were going to bed. Again there was nothing on that could be causing it. So when I got home I bought the latest digital one and guess what? It too went of as we were getting into bed! Again, no reason found as to why. Even the windows were open this time so plenty of fresh air.

It was a little worrying to be going to sleep after the alarm had gone off, but as no reason could be found, what else could we do?

Obviously it didn't kill us as I wouldn't be writing this! If anyone can come up with an idea as to why this is happening, I would be very pleased to hear it!!

Just to add that the first one I brought home and it has never uttered a peep!!

[MauriceMynah]

Yes Vanessan, your point... "But if something is put in place that can save lives, that can only be good" is one held by many many people. The problem is that there will always be things that can be put in place. Educate people by all means, but if you legislate to remove/neutralise boating's biggest killer, then something else will take it's place.

Logically you would have to end up banning boating and all other leisure activities involving water. Water is dangerous.

I realise that I'm exaggerating the issue, but it's the only way I see of getting my point across.

I can agree that hire craft should be equipped with these devices, but at the same time there should be full detailed instructions as to what to do should one go off. Evacuate and ventilate is not enough. As I was typing this, BB has posted with much the same question. Yes have the alarms, but will someone please tell me what to do about them?????. 

[vanessan]

I think where alarms are concerned there is always the risk of false alarms, house alarms are a prime example. I do think systems generally are more reliable, technology has improved so much. I understand your views MM and the points you are trying to get across, as I hope you try and understand mine. I'm not sure you will get an answer as to what to do when things go wrong though, when technology does play up even the experts can sometimes be flummoxed! 

I seem to remember reading fairly recently that compulsory co alarms are unlikely to ever form part of the BSSC although I can't remember why. I'm not sure I quite understand your comment about 'legislating to remove/neutralise boating's biggest killer, something else will take its place'. It is a fact that people have died through co poisoning, here on the Broads and elsewhere too. Education is necessary, legislation - well we can argue that until those proverbial cows come home. I reckon most sensible boat owners will by now have a co alarm on their boat and we know some of the hire companies have installed them too. So maybe we are part of the way there. 

 

[Timbo]

My CO2 alarm at home goes off at 4:30am EVERY MORNING! For the past three weeks, it has sounded an alarm every forty-five minutes throughout the day. Yesterday it sounded at 6:16 pm.

Now I live in adapted ground floor flat and I am forced to put up with the infernal contraption. But here are the causes for the false alarms.

4:00 am my upstairs neighbour starts his car to go to work. The exhaust fumes eventually find their way into my flat and trigger the alarm.

The house next door is being decorated and they had left brushes in a jar of white spirit on the window sill. The solvent fumes were coming in through my kitchen vent and triggering the alarm.

At 6:15 pm yesterday the guy behind my house charged his car batteries in his shed releasing hydrogen gas. This set off my over sensitive CO monitor again.

So these things also pick up methane, hydrogen, solvents basically anything will set them off.

[Bound2Please]

Dont take this the wrong way, we have CO detectors at home and on Bound 2 Please, I fully agree wwith what MM, BB and Timbo say about them.

But as for fior CO being the biggest killer to boaters, come on do me a favour, surly DROWNING must be the biggest killer to boaters???????? I for one never think really about putting on a LJ and I'm far from alone in this. But second on my list of killers to inland boating I'm sure is electric shock!!!!!!  How many people get electrocuted that we dont hear about, either fatally or seriously injured from it.

My point here is that death is all around us every minute of every day, and what keeps us safe yes COMMON SENSE I agree todays school teachers seem to be doing their collective best to remove this from todays children. We are becoming a nanny state oh they'll legislate to prevent that so we'll be ok etc etc. People are becoming complacent oh we have an alarm for that, we have banned that, we are enforcing this etc etc etc....

Its about time people were allowed/taut how to use common sense again, if we fail in this i pity for our future generations, yes a bit off subject, but I do feel strongly about this nanny state we going headlong into.

Just my thoughts mind.

Charlie

[ZimbiIV]

The only thing wrong with common sense is that it isn't.

paul

[stumpy]

Re.  False detections, when we first got our Fireangel we powered it up and laid it beside the gas fire at home just in case. Sure enough it sounded within half an hour! Trouble was the fire (and back boiler pilot) was off, however Poppy dog was snoozing by fire and her farts could clear a room in seconds! So they also work on methane too!

[tjg1677]

To reply to BB specifically and back up what timbo has said, YES these devices are sensitive and do trigger false alarms. Bill where you in the same place every time it went off for example your mooring?  If this is the case then it is possible the alarm is being triggered from outside sources which could be any number of things. Co is ever present in the air in varying quantities and for all we know always has been but we didn't know it was there. We now have devices that detect it and therefore make us aware. CE regs have dictated that the units are very sensitive but you have to put it in perspective by having a digital one, you know what the reading is, they can be set off by the co from a fag.  If it goes off, monitor it, if it don't rise much above the trigger threshold, don't worry too much, if you have no appliaces burning ( remember candles and incense sticks produce co ) then it is either an ambient or residual reading. if the reading climbs, then it's time to worry. Co can hang about and a boat is the perfect reservoir to collect it. This all sounds ridiculously complicated I know but I am just trying to provoke a bit of lateral thinking.

Trev

[vanessan]

31 minutes ago, Bound2Please said:

Dont take this the wrong way, we have CO detectors at home and on Bound 2 Please, I fully agree wwith what MM, BB and Timbo say about them.

But as for fior CO being the biggest killer to boaters, come on do me a favour, surly DROWNING must be the biggest killer to boaters???????? I for one never think really about putting on a LJ and I'm far from alone in this. But second on my list of killers to inland boating I'm sure is electric shock!!!!!!  How many people get electrocuted that we dont hear about, either fatally or seriously injured from it.

My point here is that death is all around us every minute of every day, and what keeps us safe yes COMMON SENSE I agree todays school teachers seem to be doing their collective best to remove this from todays children. We are becoming a nanny state oh they'll legislate to prevent that so we'll be ok etc etc. People are becoming complacent oh we have an alarm for that, we have banned that, we are enforcing this etc etc etc....

Its about time people were allowed/taut how to use common sense again, if we fail in this i pity for our future generations, yes a bit off subject, but I do feel strongly about this nanny state we going headlong into.

Just my thoughts mind.

Charlie

I'm not sure you can teach someone common sense, either it's there or it's not! I know very little about science, chemistry etc and much of what I now know about carbon monoxide has come from the recent sad tales of death from poisoning in boats and even more information from this forum. I have been boating on the Broads for 35 years but it has taken me this long to accept there is something I can do to protect me and my family on our boat. Sad or what?! 

I have read about people drowning, mostly due to the fact that LJs were not being worn. But I can't remember ever hearing of a death from electric shock on a boat. I don't doubt there have been but it seems co poisoning and drowning are very quick to make news headlines.

I couldn't agree more with what B2P says re the nanny state we are racing headlong into. My point I suppose is that boating is a leisure activity that some go into with little knowledge of the pitfalls and dangers. If education is the answer, rather than legislation, then maybe BSS examiners should be handing out advisory leaflets so at least the message is out there.

[vanessan]

Trev's advice above seems perfectly sensible to me. 

Just a thought - all persons new to boating should be handed a leaflet about the NBN, advised to read as much content as they can possibly absorb and then join in and ask any questions. These leaflets could be handed out by the BA when new boats are tolled and by all hire companies. 

[teadaemon]

3 minutes ago, vanessan said:

...maybe BSS examiners should be handing out advisory leaflets so at least the message is out there.

Well we do have leaflets, and I'm happy to give one to anyone who wants one (I also give them out when appropriate whilst conducting examinations).

Since we're online, the best source of information I can pass on is on the BSS website itself:
https://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/stay-safe/carbon-monoxide-(co)/how-the-silent-killer-works!/

[BuffaloBill]

2 hours ago, tjg1677 said:

Bill where you in the same place every time it went off for example your mooring?

The answer to that is no. We have moved moorings and at the times it went off, there were no engines running, no heaters, no gas burners, no dog's farting etc etc. at either. I have racked my brains to find a reason for it going off but as yet find nothing!

You can't just ignore it, it is far too loud and it's on the wall separating the galley from the bedroom and within 12" of a window. Iv'e even tried it with the window shut, but it makes no difference. I have to take the batteries out to get some sleep but that defeats the object of it!

[vanessan]

2 hours ago, teadaemon said:

Well we do have leaflets, and I'm happy to give one to anyone who wants one (I also give them out when appropriate whilst conducting examinations).

Since we're online, the best source of information I can pass on is on the BSS website itself:
https://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/stay-safe/carbon-monoxide-(co)/how-the-silent-killer-works!/

That's good to know. We had a new BSSC earlier this year but no handout so maybe not all examiners hand them out as a matter of course. Mind you, he might have noticed we had an alarm anyway so he would have been preaching to the converted! 

[tjg1677]

8 hours ago, BuffaloBill said:

The answer to that is no. We have moved moorings and at the times it went off, there were no engines running, no heaters, no gas burners, no dog's farting etc etc. at either. I have racked my brains to find a reason for it going off but as yet find nothing!

You can't just ignore it, it is far too loud and it's on the wall separating the galley from the bedroom and within 12" of a window. Iv'e even tried it with the window shut, but it makes no difference. I have to take the batteries out to get some sleep but that defeats the object of it!

I love a good mystery Bill. If you want to either post the circumstances or pm me, this is something I would love to try to get to the bottom of. I have one theory but need a bit more info and evidence before I make an idiot of myself.

Trev

[MauriceMynah]

17 minutes ago, tjg1677 said:

but need a bit more info and evidence before I make an idiot of myself.

I've never needed either.

[Timbo]

2 hours ago, tjg1677 said:

but need a bit more info and evidence before I make an idiot of myself.

 

2 hours ago, MauriceMynah said:

I've never needed either.

You get a better class of idiot on the NBN...anyone seen Ray lately there's only me and MM?

[Hockham Admiral]

If I forget to remove ours to underneath my pillow it goes off every time I burn the toast/bacon/sausages/whatever. It's so loud that I have to rush out and calm peeps down if we're close to other boats....