Electric Boat Charging

[grendel]

I would imagine if you were using a sizeable chunk of the 32A then one of the cards would quickly be depleted.

So, would the BA have available a larger denomination card for charging a boat? or would you need to get up in the middle of the night to change over to a new card?- or even every couple of hours.

[Hylander]

Surely once you have swiped your card across it is yours to use.      As for sharing , only with folk who we knew who would not abuse the system,   I can see us paying and then they start using all manner of electricals and the ruddy thing runs out.     We would replenish it because we would need it for our use.    I thought also that using splitters was not encouraged.   (if that is what you would use). So no it will not be happening.     We hire in June and July and have never had any problems using the electricity points.

I hope people are keeping the cards once swiped to be returned to the BA or an outlet that sells them.

 

 

[Vaughan]

1 hour ago, ranworthbreeze said:

I would assume that the 32 amp sockets (one on every post) was meant for charging boats that needed more power for their installations.

I won't go into all the figures here as I have done them before and they were the reason Crown Blue Line never built electric boats.

Suffice to say that the power of an engine can be expressed in kilowatts, as well as horsepower. So a Nanni 4190 is rated at 26 kilowatts (if I remember rightly).

I leave it to members to work out the the number of kilowatt/hours which will be consumed by a cabin day launch over a day's cruising and the number of amp/hours of charge which will be needed to put that back into a bank of batteries overnight.

As I have said before on this subject - nothing comes for free. If you want energy, you will always have to pay for it somewhere down the line.

[grendel]

which nicely brings me back around to the original question, that of if you had not managed to charge your batteries, would you still get kicked off a 24 hr mooring at the end of that duration, with maybe only a short amount of cruising time available.

[Guest ExMemberKingFisher]

19 minutes ago, grendel said:

which nicely brings me back around to the original question, that of if you had not managed to charge your batteries, would you still get kicked off a 24 hr mooring at the end of that duration, with maybe only a short amount of cruising time available.

To be fair I think the rangers would take a reasonable view on that. I had the misfortune to get stuck upstream of Wroxham bridge a couple of years back for five days and the rangers didn't expect me to keep bouncing back and forth between the moorings upriver. I really do like the stretch of water between Wroxham and Coltishall, but not four times in one trip

I even made enquiries about a short term mooring over at Porter and Haylett when it was looking like we might run out of time before needing to head home. Fortunately the waters started to recede slightly and with some suitable padding attached to the corners of the boat in case we hit problems we headed cautiously back down stream with 2in less clearance than I have ever take my boat through at before  Wouldn't ever want to try that again though. Talk about threading the eye of the needle. I am happy with 6ft9in+ I have been through at 6ft6in before, but never 6ft4in

[Vaughan]

If an electric launch runs out of battery then there is no way of mending it on the river bank. You have just got to come out after it, and tow it home.

"Come in number 4, your time is up!"

[Poppy]

Just now, Vaughan said:

If an electric launch runs out of battery then there is no way of mending it on the river bank. You have just got to come out after it, and tow it home.

"Come in number 4, your time is up!"

Which brings me to this..

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/science-technology/electric-car-owner-excited-to-spend-quality-time-in-tow-truck-20170823134566

[grendel]

Poppy the simple answer to that isfor a group of electric car owners to park their electric cars at the petrol pumps, and see how fast they come to complain.

[LondonRascal]

Trust me everything is possible with batteries - it just costs a lot of money. I've been looking at some of these units.

They are an 'all in one solution' to replace existing battery banks on boats. This version provides 10.2Kwh of power but costs just over £11,000 inc VAT. It can be recharged in under 3 hours, recharged up to 8,000 times and discharged to 90%. Try doing that with Lead Acid cells.

[Islander]

If an electric launch runs out of battery then there is no way of mending it on the river bank. You have just got to come out after it, and tow it home.

"Come in number 4, your time is up!"

Why not just put a bracket on the back and put a nice old British Seagull with a 10:1 mix to get it home. 

 

Colin

[rightsaidfred]

At the end of the day this is probably a pointless argument, day boats by their very own description are just that and return to their home moorings to recharge as do many privates, however with the best will in the world it is physically impossible to provide enough  charging points for the hire fleet and private owners to enjoy extended cruising if and when all electric becomes the norm fortunately it isn't likely to happen in my boating lifetime.

Fred

[ranworthbreeze]

A few years ago I read an article that featured a 58 foot narrow boat that had an hybrid engine/generator and a very expensive bank of batteries. The hull was aluminium to reduce the overhaul weight.

The concept was very good and being brand new should have given trouble free boating for around 8 to 10 years, this was the estimated life of the bank of batteries.

A friend of mine is onto his second Lexus with an hybrid system, he traded in the first one before the batteries were up for renewal because of the cost of replacements.     

Regards

Alan

[TheQ]

Well I expected there to be problems sometime getting charged up, so I've got something like this, under the floor

[Paul]

11 hours ago, KingfishersTime said:

Imagine if a company was allowed to supply electric points and then charge £10 for an overnight plug in!!

There is nothing to stop them ......

11 hours ago, Jonzo said:

Electric cars are much simpler, and once battery costs come down (and they're drastically decreasing all the time) then they will be able to manufacture cars much more quickly and at a lower cost and still sell them at the same price.

It is not the cost of batteries which makes electric cars non-viable for most users but the time taken to charge them. That is not going to change anytime soon. Advances are being made, but painfully slowly and at the cost of battery life, a cost the motor industry cannot afford. 

11 hours ago, MauriceMynah said:

The Diesel engine is greener for several reasons.

No it's not. There is greater environmental cost in merely shipping the diesel you use to the pump you buy it from than in the equivalent amount of electricity to provide similar power or range, even before you burn it in your engine. It is not correct to argue that electric is "zero emission" as it is often tagged, but it is much cleaner than burning diesel and as we source more and more of it from renewable sources it becomes more so. I know the counter argument is going to be the cost of batteries, shipping them around the world etc etc, but that one of cost is soon offset. It is an argument for the anti electric campaign that simply doesn't hold water, excuse the pun.

9 hours ago, LondonRascal said:

All that is needed is a pedestal with a unique socket and plug

Which would soon be mimicked and on sale at every riverside chandlers / hardware shop.

9 hours ago, LondonRascal said:

Using Lithium batteries more can be used, with less weight and more of their capacity can be used before needing a re-charge and charging of them would be far faster too - 3 or 4 hours to 90% charge

Only if you can supply sufficient Amps, which you would not through a shore power lead. There is no way around the fact that you have to put as many amp hours into a battery as you take out, more in fact, as there is always a percentage of loss, as much as 40% in some charging circuits. Even without loss a single 110ah battery  would need 16 amps for around 6 hours to charge to 90%. One 110ah battery would not power any decent sized boat for very long. 

[TheQ]

I got timed out modifying the above, so here we go again.

The motor boat is a Elysian 27 centre cockpit.

Under the floor of the center cockpit The arrangement is, Genny on the port side, diesel tank on the starboard.

10kw electric motor, 3phase, in the aft middle, with a U of batteries around the sides and front.

The electronic controller, is below the helm on the port side, a box covering forms a nice footrest. Just to the right of the wheel is the control panel, with key switch, battery level, Genny start /stop and a couple of alarms.

There are 4 big battery switches just to the left of the helmsmans leg. 

Due to lack of time, my chargers are not yet fitted, 4 off CTEK  25A chargers, at 14.2V. That's only about 6A at 230V including losses.

Inside a wardrobe the  other side of the bulk head is the solar panel controller, for the two panel on the forward cabin roof and the two panels on the aft cabin roof.

At the moment the batteries on their  own would get me to Potter from Horning but not all the way back, if my pockets ever get recharged, then further batteries would be bought to extend the range.

I would not expect someone to move off a mooring so I could charge up if they had no where to go, nor would I expect someone to unplug if hooked up. If they were moored by a post and it was not in use then I would hope they would allow me to tie up alongside to recharge.

 

Paul, 16A at approximately 14.2V charging voltage, is less than 1 Amp at 230V coming down the shore power cable ( before losses)

 

 

[MauriceMynah]

I agree Paul, Electricity is not "zero emission, just look at any power station. Renewables don't cover the problem either. More often than not cars/boats will be recharged at night when all those solar panels are doing little.

Some time ago (a couple of years ago tops) we were being warned that power cuts were likely owing to our not having enough electricity. Those warnings have gone away it seems, but I doubt the problem has. It's just politic to keep it quiet.

Much has been said about "power drop" with electric cables. this happens with Pylons too. So, how much power drop is there compared with how much diesel fuel is used transporting DERV.

You will note that I give no figures with these observations. there is a simple reason for this. I've heard so many "facts" being quoted that now I don't trust any of them... on either side.

As far as MY diesel goes, yes I have pretty much proved it to myself, I'm the greenest of the lot of you !!!   

[grendel]

MM since the power drop is a factor of current and the resistance, the higher the voltage, the lower the current, the less power lost, thus the 400,000V supergrid to move power any distance, 132,000V , 33,000V then local down to 11,000V. percentage losses are in the region of small numbers 3% maybe, transforrmers are 98%efficient most losses are at mains voltages, maybe up to 5%

[WherryNice]

TheQ is that the Elysian that was/is moored up at Dilham?

Sent from the Norfolk Broads Network mobile app

[LondonRascal]

Since John likes techy stuff this is interesting:

 

The DC Generator

The company states:

A unique variable speed DC marine generator; operating between 900 and 2000 rpm dependent on loads. The ability to run at varying levels means the unit intelligently adjusts its speed depending on the loads demanding power, therefore reducing running costs, emissions & noise. At 900 rpm the generator runs with incredibly low noise levels.

The unit is substantially smaller than a traditional generator of the same power capacity so will reduce space used on board a vessel. VariPower Marine will be available Q2 2017 with an optional sound enclosure.

By using the combination of variable speed generator with a lithium battery bank and inverter we can help you deliver on board power in the most efficient way currently possible. The final specification of your hybrid power system will depend on your individual vessel’s power loads and requirements, but whatever the size, our Variable Speed Hybrid Power System will save boat builders and owners space, installation time, fuel & servicing costs. At the same time delivering the benefit of silent power and reduced carbon emissions.

Our scalable solution allows power to be delivered from a far smaller footprint than a traditional generator and lead acid battery bank. The generator can be sized for average loads, not peak loads; and the lithium battery option offers far greater power capacity and cyclic life than a lead acid bank of the same size.

Personally I like it as it all looks so tidy and the perfect colour scheme - even their font choice gets my approval so this sort of kit is on my shopping list. This all from a UK based company which is always nice to see some cutting edge stuff from our shores, the only issue really is getting over the initial cost but that is sometimes what you need with systems that are being designed for your individual boat and needs to be a drop in solution if you don't want or know how to do it in a modular fashion yourself.

While Paul earlier pointed out that even if you had special sockets and plugs for electric craft it would not be long before the average Chandler had 'copied' such these plugs are not dumb. You can get cross over systems to a standard 16Amp plug

They have circuitry to allow communicate between pedestal and battery system for charging . I've found some online for sale, there over £400.00 so not the sort of thing the average boater will go buy just so they can run their £9.99 fan heater on while moored up.

I don't see all the above for the benefit of the environment so much, just removing as much compromise as possible with on board life compared to shore side living.

 

[MauriceMynah]

Grendel, If we are saying that there is a 5% loss (max) from power station to usage, What percentage loss is there with diesel from refinery to forecourt I wonder.

[LondonRascal]

To be honest, it does annoy me when with this ongoing view that electric cars are somehow no better off overall to run for the environment than traditionally powered cars be them fueled by petrol, diesel or even bio-fuels.

Some will tell you that electric cars have higher emissions when they are built than a ‘normal car’ production line. Then they will say that electric cars also use electricity that has its own carbon footprint and pollution and when you put these two together these factors are somehow something of a hidden secret that people like Tesla would rather hush because if it was really known it would negate any climate benefit of electric cars.

Rubbish.

One of the most irritating things when discussing electric car emissions is the way it’s always very black and white.  In one corner you have the ‘zero emissions’ brigade and in the other the ‘worse than combustion engine’ people. But real life comes in shades of grey. Yes making an electric car has a bigger footprint so far as emissions go it is all about the fuel mix of the power you use.

Using coal powered electricity electric cars do nothing to cut emissions, using natural gas electricity they’re like a top hybrid and using low carbon power they result in less than half the total emissions of the best combustion car - manufacturing included.

You can find a wealth of details online about how manufacturing in different countries use different amounts of power – India and China are awful places to have stuff made because the power that runs their factories is coal based.  This means building an electric car there has a bigger impact than one built in the likes of France who has a big nuclear powered grid.

Now from where  I am in London and being told how bad the air pollution is on a local level borough by borough worries me and is very much on my doorstep. Yet out in sunny Hertfordshire they have things better so increasingly it is not just about what emissions are made on a countrywide scale but on a local scale and that is where zero emission cars (and even now single and double decker buses in London) make a big difference to the locality even if their 'juice' was generate by burning coal which on a larger countrywide scale added more emissions to the atmosphere.

Electric cars are relatively new at a commercial scale at least, and are dealing with issues of cost, range and charging speed. Despite this they offer real hope for reducing carbon emissions and improving local air quality and limiting noise too. Electric cars are far from perfect (and I don’t just mean in terms of range - having sat in a Tesla Model S, their build quality is not quite up with a large car company) and I agree  there are plenty of valid ways to have a dig at electric cars generally.  But let’s not pretend that a petrol or diesel car can compete with an electric car in terms of emissions.  It’s just not a contest.

Give an electric car the right sort of power generated in the right sort of way and it crushes combustion engines completely. This sort of thing is happening, over and over with farmers now turning not to harvesting Wheat but power with acres of solar panels.  We have more wind farms than ever and so slowly but surely we are moving towards a more sustainable way to generate power.

Talking of which this cleaver website shows the status in real time of the UK National Grid and how much and where the power is coming from: http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/

[grendel]

Thats interesting Robin, I like the fact that output from wind is nearly the same as output from coal, but both are only about 3% each of the total.

[LondonRascal]

38 minutes ago, grendel said:

Thats interesting Robin, I like the fact that output from wind is nearly the same as output from coal, but both are only about 3% each of the total.

But if you scroll over today Solar is proving 12% - that is not bad going for a country that does not get the best amount of sun and is in right up in the north of the hemisphere. Bit by bit things seem to be going towards a clearer future, the problem with wind is the turbines need so much work doing - an entire industry is set up doing just that because they are mechanical things in some pretty harsh places.

What I think we should explore more is tidal and wave power generation because it is predictable and constant unlike wind or sunshine.

[grendel]

a few years back I read up on some smaller nuclear generation, it used molten salt as the coolant, and was set up so that if an emergency shutdown was needed it dumped the molten salt into a hopper, where the radiation was contained within the now solid salt.

Not heard of any progress on those recently. They were good because they only had a small size and output, so they could be sited closer to the place they supplied, thus reducing the losses in the network..

[High6]

This may be what you are looking for ...

https://t.co/y5tHtErVNp

If I remember correctly there were some experimental stations in US operating successfully after WWII, but someone in the govmt said "No more" and they were put on the back burner waiting for someone with some vision and commonsense. The Chinese have a few, I believe, and the relatively low cost would make them a good stop-gap until fusion happens for real.