Mystery Number

[floydraser]

Hi All,

Probably a schoolboy question but I am new around here still, and probably will be for a long time yet! 

Reffering to the photo: you are right up the pointy bit at the front of the boat, looking backwards and upwards in the forecabin of my Harvey Eastwood 37. What's this number all about? 

I've tried Googling it but every search containing the word "fraction" produces page after page offering help with my A level maths exams. Bit late for that.

BTW I'm not sure what the purpose of the copper pipe is other than decoration but see how it's tarnished with the heat of the recent weather.

Floyd.

[ChrisB]

It will be your boats "Small Ships Reg No". It used to be a requirement to have the number carved into the main beam if the vessel was subject of a Marine Mortgage.

I think that is correct but Vaughan, I am sure will be able to give a more definative answer.

[ChrisB]

I am sorry I did not read your question correctly and thought you were refering to the SSR number.

The other number is your "Thames Tonnage" it actually does not refer to the weight of your vessel but is a calculation that also takes into account the volume of the boat.

You do not hear it often now but boats such as the Hillyards were classed in this way. So if an owner talks about his "5 Tonner" he is not refering to the boats weight but an overall idea of it's size.

[ChrisB]

Good old Wiki......What would we do without it:-

 

 

[JanetAnne]

The 6 digit number is her registration number with the original Gt Yarmouth Port and Haven Commissioners. 

I believe those records still exist in a Norfolk County Council archive but Liz (w-album)  will confirm as she has been through the records for Water Rail.

By the way, I bumped into Seraphina the other day. Gary was full of apologies and asked for you to get in touch again. He dropped his phone on the river a couple of weeks or so ago and the replacement is at his house for when he gets home. 

Of course all your contact details went with the phone!

[ChrisB]

I have edited you photograph to improve clarity.

[Vaughan]

Sorry folks, but there are a few misconceptions here.  The number does not refer to the GY P&H Commissioners, who had their own numbers, displayed on the hull of a boat.  The old herring drifters out of Yarmouth harbour all carried a number with "GY". Broads boats (if they had an engine) had numbers issued by the Bure and Waveney Commissioners.  The Yare up to Norwich was part of the P&H in those days.

This photo is her registration number with Lloyds Register of Yachts and if you have a copy, for the year of her build and afterwards, you will find her listed there.  It identifies her as a British Registered vessel, in international law.  A "yacht" meant a type of pleasure vessel and did not have to have an engine to be registered.  "T.S.D.Y.", for instance, meant twin screw diesel yacht.

The number has to be carved into the main deck beam and on a yacht this would be the transverse beam which supports the mast.  On motor cruisers you will usually find it carved into a deck beam up forward (as we see it here) or on a beam supporting the aft deck, as these are both transverse beams.  I have also seen it carved into the main (non removable) floor beam in the engine compartment.  In other words, somewhere which is likely to last the life of the boat.

A lot of Broads Yards used to build their hire boats on a marine mortgage, as these tended to be cheaper and could be taken out for a longer term than a bank loan.  One of the conditions of a marine mortgage is British Registry, as it is definite proof of ownership as well as nationality.  So this will be why we see the number here.

I am out of my depth on Thames Tonnage but I think that was a formula of volume calculated by length, breadth, etc., which was used for calculating racing handicaps.  A very similar system to British Registered Tonnage but not, I believe, the same.  The Registered tons are her cargo carrying capacity, and there are allowances deducted for chart space, engine space, chain locker and several other things.  It bears no relation to her actual deadweight or displacement weight and is just a formula.  Incidentally, at over 13 Imperial tons, your boat has a lot of capacity! The registered tonnage is usually a lot less than the actual weight but in your case, I would guess they are not very different.

By the way, as the boat is registered, if you are a member of a yacht club which holds an Admiralty warrant, this would allow you to wear the Blue Ensign on your boat.  You would just need to re-register in your name and apply to your club for the warrant.

 

 

[marshman]

I know you do not require confirmation Vaughan, but reading your post, reminded me of the fact that many new builds on the Broads were built with the support of marine mortgages - indeed when I had an offshore boat it was deliberately registered so it would be more saleable so any prospective purchaser could get a mortgage. Registering a secondhand boat was very much more difficult which is why people used to register boats from new, even without the use of a mortgage.

[LizG]

2 hours ago, JanetAnne said:

I believe those records still exist in a Norfolk County Council archive but Liz (w-album)  will confirm as she has been through the records for Water Rail.

I found them there about 10 years ago in the Norfolk County Archive? I had a bit of difficulty trying to explain what I was looking for. I looked at two large bound books containing pre-war registrations but some had been updated to reflect change in ownership and in the case of Delight I lost in a fire.  Herbert Woods and Powles boats certainly had numbers but I have never found any form of numbering on my brother's sailing yacht which was built by Ernest Collins.

The books were fascinating - but I didn't have enough time to look at all the entries....

Liz

[Seagypsy]

1 hour ago, Vaughan said:

Sorry folks, but there are a few misconceptions here.  The number does not refer to the GY P&H Commissioners, who had their own numbers, displayed on the hull of a boat.  The old herring drifters out of Yarmouth harbour all carried a number with "GY". Broads boats (if they had an engine) had numbers issued by the Bure and Waveney Commissioners.  The Yare up to Norwich was part of the P&H in those days.

This photo is her registration number with Lloyds Register of Yachts and if you have a copy, for the year of her build and afterwards, you will find her listed there.  It identifies her as a British Registered vessel, in international law.  A "yacht" meant a type of pleasure vessel and did not have to have an engine to be registered.  "T.S.D.Y.", for instance, meant twin screw diesel yacht.

The number has to be carved into the main deck beam and on a yacht this would be the transverse beam which supports the mast.  On motor cruisers you will usually find it carved into a deck beam up forward (as we see it here) or on a beam supporting the aft deck, as these are both transverse beams.  I have also seen it carved into the main (non removable) floor beam in the engine compartment.  In other words, somewhere which is likely to last the life of the boat.

A lot of Broads Yards used to build their hire boats on a marine mortgage, as these tended to be cheaper and could be taken out for a longer term than a bank loan.  One of the conditions of a marine mortgage is British Registry, as it is definite proof of ownership as well as nationality.  So this will be why we see the number here.

I am out of my depth on Thames Tonnage but I think that was a formula of volume calculated by length, breadth, etc., which was used for calculating racing handicaps.  A very similar system to British Registered Tonnage but not, I believe, the same.  The Registered tons are her cargo carrying capacity, and there are allowances deducted for chart space, engine space, chain locker and several other things.  It bears no relation to her actual deadweight or displacement weight and is just a formula.  Incidentally, at over 13 Imperial tons, your boat has a lot of capacity! The registered tonnage is usually a lot less than the actual weight but in your case, I would guess they are not very different.

By the way, as the boat is registered, if you are a member of a yacht club which holds an Admiralty warrant, this would allow you to wear the Blue Ensign on your boat.  You would just need to re-register in your name and apply to your club for the warrant.

 

 

Interesting reading last para. of your posting Vaughan. When I was in the MN in the early 60s two ships of a local company flew the Blue Enslgn and i always understood it was because the captains were RNR so as you say registering and applying for the warrant would that make you RNR

[stumpy]

Thames Tonnage was used to determine the amount of Light Dues paid on first arrival at a UK port if a vessel came in 'from foreign' as opposed to coastwise. In theory the boarding Customs Officer would take a (very large) number of measurements, sit down with a large book of tables and a slide-rule for a few hours and eventually come up with a sum to be paid to Trinity House. In practice there is a TT certificate held on board which if one was really keen could be compared with the number welded into somewhere inaccessible! I did attend a three day course to learn how to do it - instantly back-filed!

[Vaughan]

3 minutes ago, Seagypsy said:

registering and applying for the warrant would that make you RNR

Short answer - not necessarily!

You are right in what you say, that the captain of a British ship would wear the Blue if he was a reserve officer in the RNR but a certain number of the officers and crew also had to be reservists. The ship may also have been built to an Admiralty reserve contract which meant that the builders received a grant for the building but the ship was regarded as "in reserve" so she could be called upon to serve. This was how the Q.E. 11 and the Canberra found themselves in the Falklands war. It is also one of the main reasons why the Titanic sank, as White Star Line did not build to an Admiralty contract so the ship did not have longitudinal watertight bulkheads. Perhaps that's getting off the subject!

A lot of Forces people (past and present) belong to yacht clubs, such as the RNVR sailing club and the RNSA. These clubs hold an Admiralty warrant for their members to wear the Blue ensign on their boats, as long as they are British registered. There are also lots of non-Service clubs, such as Royal Thames, Island SC, and Little Ship Club, which also have warrants for special ensigns. Nearer home, the Nobs and Snobs (RNSYC) have the warrant to wear the Red ensign defaced with a "Fleur de Lys" in the fly.

[Seagypsy]

Thanks for that Vaughan, don't believe they were built to Admiralty contract as ships were built at different yards and captains moved around from ship to ship

[floydraser]

Wow! Thank you all for the replies and sorry for the late response. I do read your contributions during the day but haven't got round trying to reply with the phone app.

[floydraser]

16 hours ago, JanetAnne said:

 

By the way, I bumped into Seraphina the other day. Gary was full of apologies and asked for you to get in touch again. He dropped his phone on the river a couple of weeks or so ago and the replacement is at his house for when he gets home. 

Of course all your contact details went with the phone!

Thanks for that: Does that mean that if I ring his number I'll be able to talk to the fish?

I'll drop him a line soon.

[floydraser]

15 hours ago, Vaughan said:

--snipped--

This photo is her registration number with Lloyds Register of Yachts and if you have a copy, for the year of her build and afterwards, you will find her listed there.  It identifies her as a British Registered vessel, in international law.  A "yacht" meant a type of pleasure vessel and did not have to have an engine to be registered.  "T.S.D.Y.", for instance, meant twin screw diesel yacht.

--snipped--

By the way, as the boat is registered, if you are a member of a yacht club which holds an Admiralty warrant, this would allow you to wear the Blue Ensign on your boat.  You would just need to re-register in your name and apply to your club for the warrant.

 

I'm really grateful for this Vaughan; plenty to chase up there, I'll report back if I find anything. 

The last paragraph could explain the nice, blue ensign I found in a locker. It's in excellent condition on a nicely varnished pole and there's a socket for it on the stern. Unfortunately I don't do clubs. What's the penalty for flying an ensign without a warrant? 

[JennyMorgan]

6 hours ago, floydraser said:

What's the penalty for flying an ensign without a warrant? 

Flogging or doing the washing up for a week! 

Actually I believe that you could be fined several thousand pounds. Far cheaper to buy a plain and simple Red Ensign, far smarter too. Red is such a nice colour!

[Vaughan]

34 minutes ago, JennyMorgan said:

Actually I believe that you could be fined several thousand pounds.

In the 60s it was £400. I hear it has gone up rather a lot since then!

[floydraser]

2 hours ago, JennyMorgan said:

Flogging or doing the washing up for a week! 

Actually I believe that you could be fined several thousand pounds. Far cheaper to buy a plain and simple Red Ensign, far smarter too. Red is such a nice colour!

Well as I already do the washing up: no hardship there!😉

Depends who's doing the flogging.😱

Wow. I think I may have a very posh handkerchief.

[Timbo]

1 hour ago, Vaughan said:

In the 60s it was £400. I hear it has gone up rather a lot since then!

The rules were changed in 2004 and are about to change again. To wear an un-defaced blue ensign on your vessel you do need to be a serving officer in the maritime forces or an active reservist in addition to any award made to your vessel. The fine is currently set at £1K.

It's something I had to look into on behalf of my Dad (Uncle Albert) and I had a nice chat with a chap at the Admiralty on the subject. He explained it as 'like wearing a regimental tie if you were never in the forces or getting an SBS tattoo if the closest you ever got was delivering spuds to Hamworthy Barracks'.

Apparently it is the right of every British Citizen to fly the Red Ensign and is the flag you are supposed to fly and not the Union Flag. (When working abroad we would always carry a red ensign in case of emergency. We were told British troops apparently treat anyone flying the Union Flag with suspicion.) Fly the union flag and it means the Queen is on board. Fly the Flag of St George means there's an Admiral on board.

On board Royal Tudor I have Uncle Albert's collection of flags. He shinned up many a mast to collect them, so there's the masthead from HMS Carrysfort and the pennant from the Commodore's staff car that he swiped. I decided this weekend at the wooden boat show I'm going to make a light box to frame them and put it in 'The Captain's Cabin' on Royal Tudor along with Uncle Albert's cap ribbons and his bosun's whistle.
 

[Coryton]

11 hours ago, floydraser said:

Thanks for that: Does that mean that if I ring his number I'll be able to talk to the fish?

I'll drop him a line soon.

A fishing line?

[TheLaird]

You have all got me worried now.

 

I fly  the Saltire on the front of my boat! 

I have Scottish origins.

Clive

[JennyMorgan]

20 minutes ago, TheLaird said:

You have all got me worried now.

 

I fly  the Saltire on the front of my boat! 

I have Scottish origins.

Clive

Clive, you could also fly this flag at the blunt end:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Ensign#/media/File:Scottish_Red_Ensign.svg

[Timbo]

31 minutes ago, TheLaird said:

I fly  the Saltire on the front of my boat! 

Mean's a doctor is on board. Could be fun! 

I'm of Yorkshire, Jewish, Irish and Scots origins, born in Singapore...which according to some bloke I met in the Brit Club in Bahrain makes me Welsh! 

[JennyMorgan]

24 minutes ago, Timbo said:

makes me Welsh! 

Must be that unhealthy leer that lady sheep have to endure!