Coronavirus And The Broads

[JennyMorgan]

The Government has prevented a great many businesses from doing business, from boatyards to boutiques, so what is HMG's (taxpayer's) liability? 

[JennyMorgan]

https://www.edp24.co.uk/news/environment/coronavirus-lockdown-quiet-on-broads-1-6629567

[Vaughan]

The Rover Yare (sic) at Postwick empty of boats. Is that part of the Whitlingham Gravel Pits?

These photos simply show me the Yare as it normally looks, in between Easter and Whitsun.

BBC East did a piece this evening which told us very little but involved Silverline at Brundall. Presumably this "journalist" took these photos during the same "necessary journey" from the office?

[Vaughan]

1 hour ago, Vaughan said:

I suppose what I am asking is : if government prevention is the cause of the breach of contract, then should government pick up the cost of it, since neither side of the contract itself, is actually at fault?

Having just watched the local TV news about tourism in the area, they were saying that this situation could be known in law as the "frustration" of a contract.

[JennyMorgan]

RYA advice regarding contracts, including charter/hire here:

https://www.rya.org.uk/SiteCollectionDocuments/Legal docs/COVID-19 Contract Guidance.pdf

[MotorBoater]

44 minutes ago, JennyMorgan said:

RYA advice regarding contracts, including charter/hire here:

https://www.rya.org.uk/SiteCollectionDocuments/Legal docs/COVID-19 Contract Guidance.pdf

 

A succinct description of the issues on this thread over the last few pages. It still boils down to discussion and compromise, on both sides if possible.

I'll be paying our money to Richardsons at some point next week, unless the lady on the phone says they don't want it.....

[Vaughan]

19 hours ago, JennyMorgan said:

That said, the Broads survived WW2. It will survive this,

I have been reading back over yesterday's animated, intelligent and very interesting discussion and this is one of the "hidden gems" that was lurking un-noticed among it!

The Broads were closed for most of the War and my parents, who holidayed there in 1946, had to cut their way into places such as Womack and Rockland as the navigations had grown over.  But that is beside my point!

Some boats were requisitioned as patrol launches, others were moored on broads to stop planes landing and others just had to rot on the bank. Boatbuilding staff were sent off to other big yards such as Vospers, Fairmile, or the British Powerboat Co.

But after the War (and this is the point) the boatyards were able to claim full compensation for the war damage to boats and premises and this allowed them to re-build their fleets. Boatbuilders and engineers came back to jobs which were kept open for them as they had been in "reserved occupations".

So the Government made full reparation on that occasion. Let us hope they will bear that in mind this time!

 

[JennyMorgan]

1 hour ago, Vaughan said:

So the Government made full reparation on that occasion. Let us hope they will bear that in mind this time!

So they did, but not at 1946 values but that is just a minor detail! My father, like Vaughan's, did his bit, both during the war but also in the rebirth of the Broads post war. Dad desperately wanted to join up but being in a reserve occupation, he was a baker & confectioner, was only able go as a volunteer, he went both to Dunkirk and the D-Day beaches. As the saying goes, he had a 'good war, he always felt guilty about that but maybe that encouraged him into creating jobs.  Other business friends did too, one being a shipbuilder. Another friend and a brother-in-law had been unwilling guests of the Japanese thus they had a backlog of their pitiful wages to invest, and so they all did. Dad ordered, and paid for, six sailing boats in order to help kick-start Fowler's boatyard. Another friend ordered and likewise paid for six more boats both to help rebuild the local sailing club and to boost Truman's boatyard. Thankfully people came along and bought those new boats and so the money went round within the local economy. The local yards took to re-opening Oulton Broad which had become overgrown with weed during the war as the Broad had been mined in order to prevent German sea-planes from landing. A concerted effort was made to carpet the navigation channel with old sacks soaked in diesel in order to kill the weeds, imagine that being sanctioned today! Competitors came together as one to rebuild Oulton Broad just as others did right across the Broads. In comparison we are nowhere near being in the same situation but I am sure that the same spirit will ensure that the Broads quickly returns to it old self. 

[Poppy]

Breaking

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52483453

"Firms that fail to refund people for holidays and weddings cancelled because of the coronavirus outbreak could face legal action by the consumer watchdog.

The Competition and Markets Authority (CMA) says it will take companies to court if they flout the law."

[ChrisB]

To go off at a bit of a tangent :-

Your post has got me thinking Peter. There are areas of the navigation, high reaches of rivers and bays on Broads normally good as anchorages that must be seeing exceptional weed growth with the amount of sunlight we have had and no prop-cutting.

However back to the subject. I think given the huge indebtness the country is in, any aid to business sectors will be rightly prioritised. Furthermore I can see the tourist industry being broken into that which attracts overseas customers cash and those who are predominantly home turf.

Sadly, I think holidays will be classed very much in the "Non-Essential" catagory.

[marshman]

Hi Chris - not sure that "weed growth" will necessarily be true! Whilst it has been sunny, in overall terms , I doubt the water temperature has been that out of the norm. Certainly here in Norfolk, we have been subject as always, to the cold winds and that i suspect has kept the water temps down a bit! That has definitely been the case in my garden pond.

Not that any of that makes much difference - are we actually going to be able to moor in those bays this year? Sadly, I doubt it!!!

[ChrisB]

The other aspect of lockdown that does worry me is the huge rise in online spending, be it first time grocery like me or just about anything else. For safety's sake this will have been predominantly by credit card.

I just hope that the great and the good are making provision  to pay when the statement arrives. It is very easy to forget that you have put the weekly shop, usually paid on the debit card onto the credit card.

I just think money for entertainment, holidays etc. Is going to be exceptionally tight.

[JennyMorgan]

38 minutes ago, Poppy said:

Breaking

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52483453

"Firms that fail to refund people for holidays and weddings cancelled because of the coronavirus outbreak could face legal action by the consumer watchdog.

The Competition and Markets Authority (CMA) says it will take companies to court if they flout the law."

That's our problems solved then!  I wonder what else this ruling could apply to, tolls perhaps?

[MauriceMynah]

31 minutes ago, Poppy said:

Breaking

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52483453

"Firms that fail to refund people for holidays and weddings cancelled because of the coronavirus outbreak could face legal action by the consumer watchdog.

The Competition and Markets Authority (CMA) says it will take companies to court if they flout the law."

This could be interesting as it will have to put the "spirit of the law" strictly to one side and enforce the letter of the law.

I don't know what happens when a company goes into liquidation, but if it's liabilities outweigh it's assets then I see everyone loosing.

The value of a boat is, at the end of the day, the amount someone is prepared to pay for it. We know that there will be more boats for sale soon than normal as more people have to pay for their failed businesses, the debts they have incurred over this lockdown period, or even death in the family. More boats for sale and fewer buyers, the value will drop.

Now, I do not have a Paladonian knowledge of the law, nor his tenacity for researching it, so I don't know how a company's liquidated assets gets divided between it's creditors. Further, I don't know how anyone who accepted credit notes or alternative dates stands either. I would imagine that each party will get a percentage of the money owed to them, and I don't see that as a very high percentage either.

So, we would end up with fewer hire fleets, all creditors worse off than they were and a glut of very nice boats on the market, devaluing all existing private boats.

Who will have won?  Well, the companies involved in the liquidation will do well, but I can think of nobody else. The remaining active boats will have to make up the inevitable shortfall in BA's tolls, and there will be other expenses that will go up as a result of all this.

So, … Was calling for the letter of the contract to be honoured a good move? Time will tell.

[ChrisB]

Not quite like that John. There are Creditors and Preferential Creditors who take what they can first and the rest is divvid up between the rest at so much in the pound.

The preferentials are normally The Bank and HMRC.

Getting one's money back assumes there is the money there in the first place! "If the computer say No"  that is when the accountants take over.

All men are not equal when a business runs out of cash.

[Oddfellow]

It really is in nobody's interests to force the hand of any business at this time. These are very early days and we have been told that social distancing will be around for a long time yet.

The CMA is highly unlikely to make any such moves as suggested in the article shared by Peter earlier until such a time that this situation is well behind us. The article is probably as a result of journalists looking for a story rather than any real expectation of action by the CMA. 

It would be entirely foolish for anybody to put pressure on such businesses right now as the outcome of this situation is unknown both in terms of the damage it will do to the economy and our long-term health . All the time, the question of when it will be over is the great unknown.

None of these things are particularly controllable right now; so why would the CMA jump in and exert pressure on a business that has been forced to cease trading for an unknown period of time? We all know the likely result would force it into insolvency.  There would be no winners, only losers. 

Some might say, but what about the assets? That old manor house must be worth a fortune and all those boats.... It needs to occur to those people that the manor house is probably owned by the bank and many of those boats could have mortgages or other charged on them too. Just because a company offers to hire something to you does not mean they own it: Hoseasons is a prime example: it owns precisely none of the boats it sells Broads holidays on. 

I keep saying this: just sit tight and see what happens. Normality, whatever that looks like in the future, is many, many months away. Calm reflection and patience is what we need. 

[Meantime]

As always it pays to go to the original source in these matters. The last paragraph on page 3 in bold probably says it all.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/882088/Covid_refunds_guidance.pdf 

[Poppy]

As has been pointed out earlier some nay not be in a position to 'just sit tight and see what happens.'   They could well be jobless because of this, and need every penny available to fund rent or mortgage payments.

It's not only business that's finding the Banks to be, at best 'unhelpful' at present .

[DAVIDH]

There was a talk on Radio 5 live with Nicky Campbell, following the "judgement". I have to say that most callers were pragmatic, understanding the situation might be made much worse if a high proportion of those owed money, went for a cash refund. The worry, as has already been said, is that credit notes are not much use if the company concerned ceases to trade. This in turn might start a stampede to get refunds. The government has been pressed for 8 week now, BY ABTA on underwriting the ATOL scheme so that these refund credit note holders would be safe in such events, but has been notably silent. The ATOL fund was virtually wiped out with the Thomas Cook demise. ATOL does not cover (generally) boating holidays, but surely anyone can see that the losses to the tax payer would be much higher if companies were allowed to fail because of this, in terms of tax generation and the subsequent benefits the those made redundant would now have to claim. The government needs to stop sitting on it's hands on this, and come out in support of those businesses by guaranteeing the validity of these refund credit notes.

[Meantime]

It's also worth taking a look here and filtering on consumer protection!

https://www.gov.uk/cma-cases?

Of the 2073 cases the CMA have pursued since it's inception, only 75 were for consumer protection and  further filtering shows only 12 resulted in a court order. Perhaps if the BBC had researched it's story properly, they would have realised the reality is likely to be vastly different to what they have reported.

[Meantime]

1 hour ago, ChrisB said:

The other aspect of lockdown that does worry me is the huge rise in online spending, be it first time grocery like me or just about anything else. For safety's sake this will have been predominantly by credit card.

I just hope that the great and the good are making provision  to pay when the statement arrives. It is very easy to forget that you have put the weekly shop, usually paid on the debit card onto the credit card.

I just think money for entertainment, holidays etc. Is going to be exceptionally tight.

One of the reasons why the gambling industry have been pushed and thankfully agreed to a six week ban on all forms of advertising!

[Oddfellow]

2 minutes ago, Poppy said:

As has been pointed out earlier some nay not be in a position to 'just sit tight and see what happens.'   They could well be jobless because of this, and need every penny available to fund rent or mortgage payments.

It's not only business that's finding the Banks to be, at best 'unhelpful' at present .

I am aware that there are many people who are in very trying, desperate situations. But they won't get any benefit from forcing legal situations either. There's at least an 8 week turnaround for small claims cases which is likely to increase, a further two weeks in general for judgements to be satisfied (or not) and months and months of delays if a court order isn't fulfilled. Gaining judgement in your favour is absolutely no guarantee you will see your money. 

The true reality is that we are all stuck between a rock and a hard place. Businesses and consumers need protecting and the balance of this will be where the real disagreements lie. 

 

[JennyMorgan]

1 hour ago, MauriceMynah said:

The remaining active boats will have to make up the inevitable shortfall in BA's tolls,

The BA's finances need thorough investigation before future tolls are set.

Perhaps HMG coffers might make up any shortfalls.

The BA certainly needs to review its financial affairs, an independent review would be prudent, indeed its the least that we should expect. 

When an actual rather than an estimated shortfall is clearly identified then, and only then, the BA will have to both justify its further demands from the toll payer and then modify its overall expenditure to match its income. The unjustified profligacy at Yare House in connection with it's NP aspirations needs an instant halt for example. 

Granted that many people are content with the level of tolls but the reality is that the BA offers very poor value to its stakeholders. Millions have been wasted over the last twenty or so years.

Only when the BA's affairs have been scrutinized should the toll payer be expected to dip their hands still further into their already strained pockets. 

[MauriceMynah]

1 hour ago, DAVIDH said:

The government needs to stop sitting on it's hands on this, and come out in support of those businesses by guaranteeing the validity of these refund credit notes.

I'm not sure the government is in any position to do this.

Perhaps we need to remember that, as I said earlier, the government as such, has no money. To obtain money, it taxes people/businesses. we all want the government to pay for this, that and the other, but all that means will be paying more tax.

When this is over, we shall look back at what we have called "austerity budgets" with wistful smiles thinking "We never had it so good"

Cutbacks will abound, tax will soar and the standard of living will drop through the floor. Those are the likely outcomes of this pandemic to some extent or other. This will not just be in the UK, it will have to be the case in any country which has been economically affected by the virus.

6 minutes ago, JennyMorgan said:

Granted that many people are content with the level of tolls but the reality is that the BA offers very poor value to its stakeholders.

Peter. Those who are not content with the way the BA runs it's business do not actually have to pay the tolls. They can sell their boats and buy caravans on Canvey Island. Sorry to be so blunt, but whether or not the BA offers value for money will not figure highly compared with feeding the masses of unemployed people this shut-down will create.

[ChrisB]

I have not really kept up to date but the last time I looked (about 2018ish) The Public Sector Audit Authority appointment was Ernst & Young for the BA.

Who I am sure scrutinize the income and expenditure thoroughly.