Coronavirus And The Broads

[Vaughan]

4 minutes ago, FreedomBoatingHols said:

A holiday is a service, not a product.

Exactly!

[Meantime]

I guess it comes down in part to people wanting their cake and eat it. You could decide not to book your holiday, wait until the day before and ring around the yards and see what boats are available, then turn up on the day, pay your money when you know you're pretty much certain your holiday won't be cancelled and off you go. Although off course you may find there are no boats available, those that pre booked have all taken them. Or the boat of your choice may be already taken. No problem just ring up work and cancel your holiday and try again next week. Or perhaps boat yards should try the hotel model of pricing, you know the one where you chance your arm on availability and pay the going price on the day based on availability, or prebook at a low price non cancellable, non refundable, or you pay the higher price where you can cancel at short notice with a full refund. By and large the current system works until it encounters a one in a hundred event and at that point waiting for your money back or taking a credit note is the least of your worries.

[MauriceMynah]

I'm not sure that this is the time for a post mortem on business models and practices. Some of us are in fairly stable situations. A few are lucky enough to be in very stable situations. I trust to God that my company pension is safe, I desperately hope that the person renting the house I have a 50% share in, is able to continue paying the rent. If both those things happen, I am stable.

LUCKY OLD ME!!!

I know I'm in a better position than many. Thus far I have my health and that is the main thing. My business has gone to the wall, but I can cope with that. HOWEVER, have a moments thought for Andy of FreedomBoatingHols. It is my guess that trying to defend the industry he is in is the last thing he wants to be doing right now.

We are in a situation different from any that we have experienced in the past. Not everyone will get it right and I doubt anyone will get it totally right. Some will get it really badly wrong, but this is not the time to pose the questions of who did what.

This is the time for reflection on what has occurred so far and to offer support to those who need it.

There will be many Andys by the time this is all over, some will be in a position to offer support, others will not be so lucky, and will be the ones needing it.

I hope Andy will forgive my using him as an example, but the thread had taken a turn that brought him to the fore.

As my father would have said, " If we learn nothing from this, we will have learned very little"

I used to worry about my father.

[CambridgeCabby]

I can only repeat what I have stated already on this thread , if consumers wish holiday companies to be able to continue to trade when the world returns to a semblance of normality then permitting them to retain what monies have been paid as payment or deposit against future holidays is the way forward .If however their demise is of no concern to you then it is your right to demand your money back in full , but accept that potentially any future holidays will not only be more difficult due to lack of operators but also more expensive not only due to the pandemic but also due to lack of competition .

[marshman]

MM - the thread did indeed lead us into this and as I said I have no axe whatsoever to grind with Andy and I apologise for causing him to comment further and perhaps even add to his existing angst.

I will comment no further and hope any issues are resolved although I am not so much of a push over all of the time!!!!

[JennyMorgan]

Thomas Cook went udders up'ards, who would have expected that? Vouchers are all very well, provide that the company is there to honour them. Thankfully I haven't got to decide. 

[DAVIDH]

1 hour ago, JennyMorgan said:

Thomas Cook went udders up'ards, who would have expected that? Vouchers are all very well, provide that the company is there to honour them. Thankfully I haven't got to decide. 

Just for clarity. Every holidaymaker that was owed money by Thomas Cook, was paid in full. Everybody who was held hostage by their hotel on the day of collapse, had their bills paid or refunded. Everybody who was left stranded abroad, was brought home without having to pay for the journey. The ATOL scheme applies to all those operators that sell flight plus holidays out of the UK, or they shouldn't be trading. If the government guaranteed the RCN in the same way, I'm sure there would be less company wind-ups. 

[Poppy]

As Marshy hasalready said,  my th0ughts and opinions as posted on this thread are in no way directed at any company or individual.

I could easily have been affected by the impact of the virus on the travel industry, but health issues intervened, preventing a visit to the Tropics this winter.  From what I have seen in other fora, there are many thousands in similar situations and I've been pondering on this for a while, in fact since the TC collapse. It can't go on, or confidence in the entire holiday industry will be badly damaged, more so than it has been already. 

Things must change.

[grendel]

I think its time we all remembered that a holiday is a luxury, not a necessity, or a right. if we can afford a holiday we are lucky, and if we can afford to own a boat, luckier still.

in recent times I think people have seen their holidays as a right, not a luxury, well I have the feeling we are going to see that change, if you think internal uk holidays are badly hit, foreign holidays will be worse, as countries decide to shut their borders to visitors.

This Pandemic has already shown that the speed of international travel is one of the main causes of the spread of these epidemics, people can travel before they even know they are sick, I have a feeling that world travel is going to be a lot more difficult in the future as countries crack down upon health issues before allowing visitors in.

in a way this will benefit the home holiday industry, as all those people denied their cheap foreign holidays will want to try new experiences.

in the short term of course, those companies have to survive to be able to give those new experiences. which is where we - the regular broads users come in, as long as we dont all panic and demand our monies back, and accept a credit for a future holiday, these companies stand a chance of surviving, and then we will be amongst the first to be able to get back out there, on the broads we all love.

[Hylander]

I agree with Grendel and getting travel insurance - forget it.

[ChrisB]

Totally agree Grendel, with reference to holidays. As the "Big Picture" emerges of the damage and costs that this pandemic has caused worldwide, I think the holiday trade will be viewed as far from essential.

Perhaps we will return to DIY holidays. Nothing but nothing beats the thrill of driving off the ferry in a French port with three weeks ahead of you and absolutely nothing planned or booked. As near to freedom as you can get in the world today for most folk.

When and if normality returns:- try it.

[rightsaidfred]

24 minutes ago, grendel said:

I think its time we all remembered that a holiday is a luxury, not a necessity, or a right. if we can afford a holiday we are lucky, and if we can afford to own a boat, luckier still.

While I agree with most of that post I don't consider myself lucky to own my own boat, I might consider myself fortunate in the current circumstances to have a home that's paid for and guaranteed income from our pensions but everything we have including the boat came from a lifetimes hard work and making sacrifices during our early life to put our finances on a sound footing, like many of our generation we only ever had what we could pay for, our only debt being a mortgage, we didn't and still don't live on credit.

I do feel sorry for those who will now have to rebuild their lives under what is going to be very difficult times, the only good that might come from this is that people sort their priorities out and understand the important things in life are not their consumables.

Fred

[ChrisB]

Judith and I were exactly the same Fred.

[Poppy]

13 minutes ago, ChrisB said:

Totally agree Grendel, with reference to holidays. As the "Big Picture" emerges of the damage and costs that this pandemic has caused worldwide, I think the holiday trade will be viewed as far from essential.

Perhaps we will return to DIY holidays. Nothing but nothing beats the thrill of driving off the ferry in a French port with three weeks ahead of you and absolutely nothing planned or booked. As near to freedom as you can get in the world today for most folk.

When and if normality returns:- try it.

We've been doing that for 30 years or more.  The long haul jaunts in the winter are a recent thing .  We are luck to be able to afford it.

[RS2021]

31 minutes ago, grendel said:

I think its time we all remembered that a holiday is a luxury, not a necessity, or a right.

Maybe from the point of view of those taking the holiday it is, but not from the point of view of those providing the holiday. For them, the boatyard, the pub, the tea room/coffee shop, the shop where you buy provisions when on holiday it is their income. Don't forget this country ceased to be a manufacturing country decades ago, we are a service economy now and jobs in the service and hospitality sector provide employment and incomes for millions - often low paid. When this is over it will be important to get all sectors of the economy moving again and you could argue the low paid sectors are more important since those workers are more likely to suffer than those who have been well paid. We know poverty has serious health implication and these could easily outweigh Covid-19 in the long run.

[grendel]

Well ok for some it may be hard work and dedication to a target to purchase a boat, maybe fortunate would have been a better word than lucky. it will be a different matter for those that have lived on credit all their lives so far.

Yes I agree for those in the industry its their livelihood, yet they are providing a service that is a luxury item, which puts them at the mercy of the economy in general. I still stand by the fact that it is my belief that foreign holidays will become less easy and this might well work to the benefit of the uk holiday industry if it can but weather this initial period, and that the support of the regular Broads holiday makers will be critical for that to happen.

[rightsaidfred]

5 minutes ago, RS2021 said:

Maybe from the point of view of those taking the holiday it is, but not from the point of view of those providing the holiday. For them, the boatyard, the pub, the tea room/coffee shop, the shop where you buy provisions when on holiday it is their income. Don't forget this country ceased to be a manufacturing country decades ago, we are a service economy now and jobs in the service and hospitality sector provide employment and incomes for millions - often low paid. When this is over it will be important to get all sectors of the economy moving again and you could argue the low paid sectors are more important since those workers are more likely to suffer than those who have been well paid. We know poverty has serious health implication and these could easily outweigh Covid-19 in the long run.

While I agree with your sentiments regarding the industries concerned we are now living in a changed world, when things start moving again there will still be some with disposable income and hopefully many who still have jobs and have been receiving a basic income with the guaranteed support and not to badly affected, sadly there will also be many more unemployed and a reduction in the number of businesses to support the economy and for many survival will be the priority not luxuries, there will be many sectors of the economy that will take time and effort to recover and leisure will probably low down on that list.

Fred

[Meantime]

Just been listening to Micheal O'Leary on the news. Not often I say it about him, but he was talking a lot of sense. He said they normally process 10,000 ticket refunds per week. Now effectively their offices are closed but they are still managing to process around 10,000 refunds per week. He has promised that cash refunds will be available for every ticket that has been cancelled but would prefer to issue a credit note as these can be issued automatically. They have cancelled 25 million tickets for flights in March, April and May. He said it doesn't matter what the watchdogs threaten there is no way Ryanair can refund all the tickets by the due date. If you do the maths it is going to take many months for some refunds.

 

[Meantime]

58 minutes ago, grendel said:

in a way this will benefit the home holiday industry, as all those people denied their cheap foreign holidays will want to try new experiences.

But will they then expect cheap British holidays. How many times have we heard how you can take a whole family of four to Spain for two weeks and guarantee the sun for the price of one weeks boat hire. People will still want their cake and eat it. Because the sun won't be guaranteed. they will want it even cheaper, overlooking the fact that the UK staff within these businesses also want to earn a living wage so they can afford to pay rent and eat.

I hope your right, but I also hope they realise that those new experiences may come with a UK price tag. 

[grendel]

it is my belief that foreign holidays will no longer be cheap compared to uk ones.

[RS2021]

26 minutes ago, rightsaidfred said:

when things start moving again there will still be some with disposable income and hopefully many who still have jobs and have been receiving a basic income with the guaranteed support and not to badly affected

The old saying goes 'money makes the world go round' if you have spare cash then every £1 you spend luxury or not gives the person you spend it with a £1 (OK less taxes) to spend with someone else and so on. That is how the economy will be rebuilt. There is a town in Devon (Totnes) which started its own currency (really a voucher system) to keep cash in the town and flowing round. Perhaps as Grendel says initially there will be more UK holidays and that will help boost the UK economy.

 

30 minutes ago, rightsaidfred said:

there will be many sectors of the economy that will take time and effort to recover and leisure will probably low down on that list

We have a choice. Those with spare cash can spend it on luxury's and keep people working, or those people can become unemployed and those with spare cash pay higher taxes to fund their unemployment benefit.

[Oddfellow]

13 minutes ago, grendel said:

it is my belief that foreign holidays will no longer be cheap compared to uk ones.

Without a great deal of government support, many UK destinations are likely to be a shadow of their former selves too. The continuance of social distancing will see the revenue streams of theme parks, theatres, piers, pubs, restaurants, zoos and the like plummet. The boss of Fullers said two days ago that it will be cheaper to not open than to operate under a 2m rule. Trump said, of rallies, how bad would it be if only one in four/five seats were occupied? In this one instance, I find myself agreeing with him (I will now go and shoot myself). However, the point is valid.

Planning the future for a business that will be affected in the long-term by this is anything but easy and, from my point of view, it's merely killing my time. There are a number of possible scenarios that might occur but the pessimist in me worries that any will allow the UK tourist market to flourish. AND, what's not been talked about here is foreign tourism. We're all concerned with where WE are going to go on holiday, not whether, as the worst hit in Europe, anybody will be wanting to or be allowed to travel to us from foreign shores.

 

 

[Meantime]

3 minutes ago, grendel said:

it is my belief that foreign holidays will no longer be cheap compared to uk ones.

Listening to Micheal O'Leary this morning he was saying that a number of EU airlines are receiving unfair large bail outs from their governments to keep them afloat, as well as Al Italia being re-nationalised which will enable them to run flights at below cost for the first few months thus making flying even cheaper as they try to encourage people to start flying again. He also said that the same is likely to happen with hotels as they struggle to recoup the best they can from the remainder of the Summer season. He expects holiday packages to be even cheaper as they try and persuade people to fly again and for business travel to take much longer to return. This is a view that appears to be shared by BA as well. Ryanair are not expecting any bail outs and are expecting a torrid two or three years as they try and compete against the other state subsidised airlines. 

I don't particularly think it will be an increase in cost of foreign holidays that will persuade people to holiday at home, but the additional hassle of restrictions for foreign travel as well as needing to be convinced it will be safe and also the fear of another lockdown leaving people stranded abroad again. Many factors will put people of foreign travel and if anything lower prices will be the only incentive. I know I have no plans on travelling abroad for some time, regardless of what precautions are put in place by governments and industry. My exception to that would be to sit in my own car on a train in the tunnel and then France, Belgium and Holland may be considered in the near future when allowed.

[rightsaidfred]

20 minutes ago, RS2021 said:

21 minutes ago, RS2021 said:

We have a choice. Those with spare cash can spend it on luxury's and keep people working, or those people can become unemployed and those with spare cash pay higher taxes to fund their unemployment benefit.

 

I agree and those will however its taken 10years for the economy to come out of a self inflicted virtual bankruptcy with many people having disposable income this time it will be even harder.

Fred 

[grendel]

business travel is another good point, I think one thing this pandemic has taught us is that business meetings are still possible when travel isnt via the internet, I believe a lot of companies will now question the cost of business travel, when the alternative has been proven to work, quite well. much as the fact that I believe a large number of people will want to continue working from home in future now that that has been proven possible.

If you think this is bad, imagine just how much more difficult things would have been without global internet, even 30 years ago, the chaos would have been unimaginable.