Tolls 2021

[Mouldy]

3 hours ago, FreedomBoatingHols said:

Ah, the us and them again. This really pi&&es me off. 

For a start, of the four tragic accidents I can recall last year, 2 were private boats, so not a majority.

Nothing to do with us and them.  From my personal experience as a hirer for close to fifty years and more recently as an owner, I cannot recall seeing other owners treating their craft with the total disrespect that I have witnessed some hirers display.  Nor would the average owner have the same disregard for the dangers of falling in the river resulting from horseplay that I have seen over the years by some hirers.

Accidents can happen to all of us, but a lack of respect for our surroundings can have fatal consequences as we witnessed last year.  No amount of briefing at the start of a holiday will educate some people sufficiently to prevent that and developing videos for people to watch in their own time, voluntarily, will inevitably be ignored by those who think they know it all anyway.

On our holidays last year, I had to help several crews who clearly had no idea  of how to moor, had my boat hit twice within ten minutes by two different boats from the same large yard on the northern rivers and once, even had to show a crew how to fill their boat with water.  I realise that a handover can’t cover all aspects of boat handling, but it should cover more than appears to be covered by some of the larger yards in particular.

There are circumstances where even the most experienced crews (including owners) may have their helming skills tested and owners whose regard for speed limits in particular may be lacking.  Surely the best way to ensure that the rules are being adhered to would be by a greater presence of rangers on the rivers, not by making videos that will largely be ignored.

[rightsaidfred]

While I accept that the attitude of some hirers is unacceptable that is sadly a reflection on today's society, so called accidents and sadly some fatalities are a fact of life, always have been and always will and no amount of training will alleviate this, in today's sue everything climate you can't blame the BA or hire fleets for trying to show they have done everything they can to mitigate their liabilities.

Fred

[Mouldy]

4 minutes ago, MaceSwinger said:

The whole "them and us" argument from private owners will never cease to irritate me. The whole thing smacks of elitism and that, to me, is not what Broads boating should be about. Or maybe I imagined that private gin palace side swiping us on a mooring last year?

For me, it’s not them and us.  My first experience of a holiday on the Broads was in 1969 with my parents and as a hirer in 1974.  I have hired probably close to 30 times in the years between then and 2019, when we bought our own boat.  I guess the same is true of most owners, who have ‘graduated’ from hiring.

I love being on the boat.  I help others when needed, hirers or other owners. I take a pride in the appearance of our boat, which is in far from perfect condition as an ex fleet boat, but do object to when it gets hit by another craft whether hired or owned.  After all, no one would accept their car from being hit in a car park and the third party driving off.

The main difference between hirers and owners is possibly the understanding of the rivers, tides and consequences of falling in, which some sadly seem to be oblivious of.  All to often, I have witnessed large parties on two or even three craft, whose crews are acting irresponsibly and doing things which are dangerous and potentially life threatening.  For example, just outside Horning, three craft from one of the large yards on the northern rivers going along abreast, the two outermost steering in to sandwich the one in the middle, with crew members jumping from boat to boat.

With behaviour like that, it should come as no surprise that tragic accidents happen and fatalities occur.  Also, bear in mind that stupidity is not restricted to the rivers.  Over the last 47 years since passing my driving test, almost 43 of which as an HGV/LGV licence holder, I’ve witnessed plenty of idiocy on the roads too.

[JennyMorgan]

3 hours ago, FreedomBoatingHols said:

As a public relations exercise at its very base, this is a damn good idea.

This is one for elephants, those of us with long memories!

Those of us who petitioned in Parliament against the Broads Bill soon realised that 'safety' was simply a smoke screen, an inconvenience for an Authority that was clearly disinterested in boating, apart from our money. Anyway, that's history now but the reality is that the Authority is also the Navigation Authority, a role that it has not been particularly interested in or indeed good at. Following this past summer's tragedies it has been dragged, kicking and screaming, into responding. In the past, as a public relations exercise, safety has not always worked well for the Authority. Will they do better this time, we can only hope so? 

Personally I see safety as paramount, a function of both the industry and the Authority, it should be seen as a duty, not a public relations exercise. It's got some catching up to do. If as much effort goes into safety as it has into the faux Broads NP then perhaps we shall get somewhere. Perhaps we should have been there decades ago.

[MaceSwinger]

50 minutes ago, Mouldy said:

Surely the best way to ensure that the rules are being adhered to would be by a greater presence of rangers on the rivers, not by making videos that will largely be ignored.

My feelings on your rather blinkered view of hirers aside, I couldn't agree more with your final point. It just seems like another BA vanity project to me. "Look how much we care!" is a poor substitute for boots on the ground as it were.

Incidentally, the most discourteous and sometimes dangerous behaviour I saw last year was from owners. And it wasn't a hire boat I had to talk through stern-on mooring at Gayes either.

[Mouldy]

19 minutes ago, MaceSwinger said:

My feelings on your rather blinkered view of hirers aside . . . . .

My  views on hirers are far from blinkered.  As I already stated, I’ve hired in my own right for the best part of fifty years and with my parents, for over fifty.  The major of hirers are fine, but the minority can lead to the incorrect generalisation that all are incompetent.  I have also assisted owners to moor who have been struggling and on occasions, been grateful for some assistance myself.  What I am trying to get across is that I cannot recall seeing private boat owners jumping from one boat to another, whilst underway, or cruising at speed, three abreast along the Bure ramming one another.

The water can be a dangerous environment and there are those who have a blatant disregard for it, their surroundings, the boat they are helming and others around them.  That type of hirer will never watch an instructional video, whether created by the BA or anyone else, regardless of the cost.

[Hylander]

1 hour ago, MaceSwinger said:

What irks me is it seems the tragic incidents last year weren't necessarily as a result of poor training or HO/TO with the yards. They were a result of people not doing what they will have been told to do. Even at Barnes we still managed a fairly thorough handover/takeover with them, especially where safety was concerned. I really do feel for the families who were affected last year, but surely "don't shove your mate into the river" isn't something that should need to be said?

The whole "them and us" argument from private owners will never cease to irritate me. The whole thing smacks of elitism and that, to me, is not what Broads boating should be about. Or maybe I imagined that private gin palace side swiping us on a mooring last year?

The idea of a bit of pre-training is interesting. The amount of time people waste on Facebook quizzes, perhaps something along those lines would work? 

I dont think the majority of boaters ever think of it being them and us,  because lets face it ,  I would bet all I have that 99.9% of private boaters started off hiring as we did, we then bought our boat, and when bad health stepped in we sold the boat and now hire once more.   I dont feel any less of a person because we are hiring , in fact I know at the end of the day,  you can go to your own boat at any time and have the freedom of being able to do to so (not this year or last though) hiring is proving to be a darn sight cheaper.     We never stopped forking out for work to be done on the boat we owned, now we get on the boat any problems are not ours thank goodness,  we just hand her back at the end of the holiday.  Thank heavens for Hire Companies.   As for the gin palace that side swiped you,  there are bad apples in every batch.  I hope you were all ok.

 

 

[JennyMorgan]

4 hours ago, FreedomBoatingHols said:

You don't get behind the wheel of a car without training and passing a test. Perhaps this is what is needed here? 

We all share a right to navigate, some would claim that a test and certificate would negate that right. Was a time when I was 100% behind  that unhindered right. There will be those that fear the hireboat industry would be severely damaged by a requirement for certification but I am coming round to the idea. We would still have the right to navigate, but it would be subject to knowing what we were doing. As it is our right to navigate the Broads is subject to having a boat safety certificate, insurance and having paid a toll so why not a certificate of competence?  I certainly don't see this solely as a requirement to hire, there are some longtime privateers who would clearly fail all but the most basic of tests.

[Vaughan]

39 minutes ago, JennyMorgan said:

We all share a right to navigate, some would claim that a test and certificate would negate that right. Was a time when I was 100% behind  that unhindered right. There will be those that fear the hireboat industry would be severely damaged by a requirement for certification but I am coming round to the idea. We would still have the right to navigate, but it would be subject to knowing what we were doing. As it is our right to navigate the Broads is subject to having a boat safety certificate, insurance and having paid a toll so why not a certificate of competence?  I certainly don't see this solely as a requirement to hire, there are some longtime privateers who would clearly fail all but the most basic of tests.

If you want to kill off the hire boatyards, then this is the thinking that will do it.  Why do we think there are no hire fleets on the waterways of Germany?  Because you can't navigate there without a licence.  So all the Germans hire boats in France!

Just where are we going with this, after 4 deaths last year, none of which would have been prevented by better training, either of customers or staff.

Please don't lets get into another "Covid" mentality over this.  Next thing we know, it will be stay at home and save lives, in case someone falls in the river.

[dnks34]

A killing off of the hire industry will only end up costing the private owner more and I dont think anyone wants that.  
 

I do think that there is a possibility albeit small that at-least one of the accidents last year may have had a different outcome with better training or awareness and knowledge of boatmanship and water safety.  Im not however agreeing that the burden of any further training should fall solely on the BA and the cost passed on to the Toll payer.  Surely that is the responsibility of the person hiring out the boat and the responsibility of the person(s) hiring it to act responsibly and also make some effort in educating themselves before taking control of a boat when knowing they have minimal or no experience. 

Even with all the training and every box ticked there will still be accidents, boats and water are dangerous that much should be obvious.  I don’t accept nobody trained me to be a valid excuse, there is enough literature already out there, go and read it!

 

[JanetAnne]

I suspect doing away with the damage waiver would bring a sudden and newfound competence for the minority group we are referring to.

I would be gutted to see the hire industry shrink much further and thoroughly enjoy meeting and chatting to hirer's when out and about just as much as I do owners.

[JennyMorgan]

2 hours ago, Vaughan said:

 Next thing we know, it will be stay at home and save lives, in case someone falls in the river.

We have already been there!

[keifsmate]

As I see it, the requirements for boating qualifications could kill the hire boat industry. If I have my Elysian transported to France to enjoy the canals and rivers there as Skipper I am required to hold both ICC and CEVNI certificates. However if I rock up with the cash, I can hire a boat and with a modicum of training (presumably a similar HO/TO session similar to present Broads hire organisations) sail off down the river. As usual, the French don't seem to let regulations get in their way! 

[rightsaidfred]

17 hours ago, MaceSwinger said:

My feelings on your rather blinkered view of hirers aside, I couldn't agree more with your final point. It just seems like another BA vanity project to me. "Look how much we care!" is a poor substitute for boots on the ground as it were.

 

Part of the increase is for just that, there will be 4 additional Rangers to increase the amount of cover on the water by enabling all patrol boats to work more hours, all water born activities carry an element of risk over and above land based ones that are down to individuals own actions, most serious accidents are not truly accidents at all  more a case of inappropriate actions on the part of one or more individuals and I am afraid no amount of training or legislation will change that, while any fatality is regrettable as far as I know there were fewer last year than in preceding years just more publicity on all platforms  .

Fred

[Oddfellow]

18 hours ago, Hylander said:

I dont think the majority of boaters ever think of it being them and us,  because lets face it ,  I would bet all I have that 99.9% of private boaters started off hiring as we did, we then bought our boat, and when bad health stepped in we sold the boat and now hire once more.   I dont feel any less of a person because we are hiring , in fact I know at the end of the day,  you can go to your own boat at any time and have the freedom of being able to do to so (not this year or last though) hiring is proving to be a darn sight cheaper.     We never stopped forking out for work to be done on the boat we owned, now we get on the boat any problems are not ours thank goodness,  we just hand her back at the end of the holiday.  Thank heavens for Hire Companies.   As for the gin palace that side swiped you,  there are bad apples in every batch.  I hope you were all ok.

 

 

99.9% wow. That's nearly everyone. 

[RumPunch]

7 minutes ago, FreedomBoatingHols said:

99.9% wow. That's nearly everyone. 

I'll be one of the minority then

[Oddfellow]

15 hours ago, JanetAnne said:

I suspect doing away with the damage waiver would bring a sudden and newfound competence for the minority group we are referring to.

I would be gutted to see the hire industry shrink much further and thoroughly enjoy meeting and chatting to hirer's when out and about just as much as I do owners.

This isn't without problems either. A damage deposit takes time and effort to administer. Imagine a boatyard, packed full of boats and you ask a hirer to sign a declaration that the boat is in a good condition prior to leaving: but they can't see it as there are boats on either side preventing inspection. The same problem occurs when a boat is returned and loads of time is spent checking things over. 

I agree: get someone to put their money on there being no damage and they will look after it better. Absolutely without doubt. And then you get a belligerent family prepared to argue the toss at the end of a booking about XYZ and demanding their deposit money back. There are many more of these type of people around than you would like to think. Been there, got the T-shirt and called the police on one too many. 

Some humans are simply awful creatures who can't put a foot wrong and I am not at all sad about not having to meet such people any more. 

 

[marshman]

Not me! And not many other locals too. That figure is much too high I think.

 

[Paladin]

1 hour ago, rightsaidfred said:

...while any fatality is regrettable as far as I know there were fewer last year than in preceding years just more publicity on all platforms.

It is also notable that the Marine Accident Investigation Branch is carrying out an investigation into the Gt. Yarmouth tragedy. It appears there is great concern within the Authority about the possibility of corporate manslaughter being raised, as was mentioned at the last Navigation Committee meeting. So the idea is to get the defence in first, as an MAIB Inspector has said that any remedial action the BA takes will be noted in the MAIB report. The BA is simply jumping before it's pushed.

[Vaughan]

5 minutes ago, FreedomBoatingHols said:

Some humans are simply awful creatures who can't put a foot wrong and I am not at all sad about not having to meet such people any more. 

Sadly, I know how Andy feels.  Luckily, the good customers are those who give me the best memories.

Do you remember, back in the 50s and 60s, when the British were famous for never complaining, when travelling abroad? The Englishman, on his Cooks tour, would never dream of complaining about a meal in a restaurant.

In my job, I dealt with customers from all over the World, in large numbers.  I have to say that in recent years, the British have been far the worst to deal with and the most impossible to satisfy.  Even worse than the Americans!  I am afraid that they have been taught how to moan and complain by Esther Rantzen and those who have succeeded her on TV.

They have also learned how to complain loudly enough to get a nice discount off their next year's holiday!

[JennyMorgan]

11 minutes ago, Paladin said:

So the idea is to get the defence in first, as an MAIB Inspector has said that any remedial action the BA takes will be noted in the MAIB report. The BA is simply jumping before it's pushed.

Whatever action is taken now will surely beg the question as to why said action was not taken previously. I have long taken the view that the Authority has not taken its navigation responsibilities as seriously as it might and perhaps this incident will highlight that possibility. 

On commercial shipping it is not uncommon to see warnings of propellers.

[floydraser]

13 minutes ago, JennyMorgan said:

Whatever action is taken now will surely beg the question as to why said action was not taken previously. I have long taken the view that the Authority has not taken its navigation responsibilities as seriously as it might and perhaps this incident will highlight that possibility. 

On commercial shipping it is not uncommon to see warnings of propellers.

Probably because they would have to justify their actions somehow and let's be honest, if there were no accidents and they increased tolls to prevent them, I can imagine the reaction here! I think it's the compensation culture and as Pally points out, the fear of corporate responsibilty is the driver here.

[floydraser]

24 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

Sadly, I know how Andy feels.  Luckily, the good customers are those who give me the best memories.

Do you remember, back in the 50s and 60s, when the British were famous for never complaining, when travelling abroad? The Englishman, on his Cooks tour, would never dream of complaining about a meal in a restaurant.

In my job, I dealt with customers from all over the World, in large numbers.  I have to say that in recent years, the British have been far the worst to deal with and the most impossible to satisfy.  Even worse than the Americans!  I am afraid that they have been taught how to moan and complain by Esther Rantzen and those who have succeeded her on TV.

They have also learned how to complain loudly enough to get a nice discount off their next year's holiday!

Thank you Vaughan. Your post should be printed out in a large font and displayed at every retail business for all to see. I often mention Ms Rantzen when discussing customer service. She lit the fuse by teaching us all how to complain, but then she fired up the ordinary person's latent megalomania by inferring that anyone in business is a crook.

Some people's favourite anecdotes are usually about how they spoke down to another human being trying to do their job.

I've always found the best way is to make the effort to be a good customer.

[Hylander]

1 hour ago, marshman said:

Not me! And not many other locals too. That figure is much too high I think.

 

May be I should have clarified ,   those folk who now own their own boat on the Broads.

[andyg]

1 hour ago, Vaughan said:

Sadly, I know how Andy feels.  Luckily, the good customers are those who give me the best memories.

Do you remember, back in the 50s and 60s, when the British were famous for never complaining, when travelling abroad? The Englishman, on his Cooks tour, would never dream of complaining about a meal in a restaurant.

In my job, I dealt with customers from all over the World, in large numbers.  I have to say that in recent years, the British have been far the worst to deal with and the most impossible to satisfy.  Even worse than the Americans!  I am afraid that they have been taught how to moan and complain by Esther Rantzen and those who have succeeded her on TV.

They have also learned how to complain loudly enough to get a nice discount off their next year's holiday!

I know of one yard where the owners chucked it in because they'd just had enough of dealing with Jo Public, wilfull damage etc etc, a very successful and busy fleet. What was said in public about the yard closing, wasn't quite the truth.