Tolls 2021

[PaulN]

The BA is raising tolls by a staggering infaltion busting 4% during these times of pandemic hardship, which I consider is outrageous, when the RPI is 0.8%

https://www.broads-authority.gov.uk/news/increase-in-tolls-funds-safety-and-navigation-improvements 

Their grounds for doing this is to employ more staff to increase safety training and measures in the wake of the accidents last year. Surely all it needs is for MAIB (the absollute experts) who investigated at least 2 of these tragedies, to make recommendations to hire companies and for them to implement them. I know for a fact that they visited one of the hirer's, as I was there when they arrived. The BA is not going to influence holiday makers prior to their holiday, who will be travelling from all over the UK.

It is my view that the BA should be making economies in these dificult times, not spending more money (our money) on ineffectual schemes. Their job is primarily to maintain the wataerways and patrol the waters to assist everyones enjoyment of them.

What can we do to curb their excesses in expenditure, they just seem so unaccountable and out of control to me. 

 

[OldBerkshireBoy]

The things you mention aren`t being funded by the 4% increase though.

[PaulN]

Well sorry OBB, but that is not what the BA re saying:

"In light of an increase in accidents last year and with safety a priority as we anticipate a very busy tourism season, members of the Authority agreed to fund a package of safety measures including on-line training videos for hirers and increased Ranger patrols of the waterways.

To maintain the existing level of service together with the new safety measures, an increase of 7% in tolls was required. The Authority requested from Defra to use the ‘National Park Grant’ reserves for safety initiatives and the Department authorised this exceptional one-off transfer. With that assistance the decision was taken to increase tolls by 4% in 2021."

[OldBerkshireBoy]

Depends on how you read what the National Park grant money is being spent on then,

By the way, wasn`t this discussed a couple of months ago?

[Mouldy]

It doesn’t matter how much training you give some people - you can’t teach stupid.  The big yards will not have time to give full and thorough instructions on boat handling and safety on changeover days, so it will be left to the hirers to watch videos that may or may not be watched.  Perhaps the higher proportion of increase in tolls should have been levied on the hire fleets, as that would appear to be where majority of incidents seem to occur.

At the end of the day we’re a captive audience.  As boat owners, we have little option but to pay the toll.  The increase on our boat will be around £16 for the year, so in that respect the increase will not be too bad.  I suppose the thinking is that if you can afford to buy and run a boat, you can afford to pay the toll.

[JennyMorgan]

Whatever we say or think JP will justify his 4%, at least to himself and his faithful followers. 

40% to 50% of our toll usually goes to overheads rather than to navigation, I don't doubt it will be the same this year. Obfuscation is the name of the game, I don't expect it will be any different this time around.

[rightsaidfred]

1 hour ago, PaulN said:

The BA is raising tolls by a staggering infaltion busting 4% during these times of pandemic hardship, which I consider is outrageous, when the RPI is 0.8%

https://www.broads-authority.gov.uk/news/increase-in-tolls-funds-safety-and-navigation-improvements 

Their grounds for doing this is to employ more staff to increase safety training and measures in the wake of the accidents last year. Surely all it needs is for MAIB (the absollute experts) who investigated at least 2 of these tragedies, to make recommendations to hire companies and for them to implement them. I know for a fact that they visited one of the hirer's, as I was there when they arrived. The BA is not going to influence holiday makers prior to their holiday, who will be travelling from all over the UK.

It is my view that the BA should be making economies in these dificult times, not spending more money (our money) on ineffectual schemes. Their job is primarily to maintain the wataerways and patrol the waters to assist everyones enjoyment of them.

What can we do to curb their excesses in expenditure, they just seem so unaccountable and out of control to me. 

 

While I am the last one to defend the BA where criticism  is justified it is important to get your facts right, the safety aspect is covered by the contribution from the NP fund, the 4% increase is for operational purposes and is largely down to a shortfall in tolls from both hire fleets and private owners, its simple really if you want the system maintained then it has to be paid for, like everything  in life  nothing comes for free.

Fred

[JennyMorgan]

41 minutes ago, rightsaidfred said:

. . . . . . . . . the 4% increase is for operational purposes and is largely down to a shortfall in tolls from both hire fleets and private owners, its simple really if you want the system maintained then it has to be paid for, like everything  in life  nothing comes for free.

And when things are back to normal and we are all back to paying our tolls will the charges then go down accordingly? 

[rightsaidfred]

Guess that depends on whats normal and how many are contributing but I doubt anything will go down especially if the fleets continue to shrink as forecast.

Fred

[Vaughan]

Is anyone seriously expecting the tolls to stay the same next year?  Or maybe go down?

I would have thought 4% is moderate, in the present circumstances.  Don't let's forget that the Broads are still being maintained in good order, ready for our eventual return.

That said, I am sceptical about this perceived need for extra training to prevent accidents, after the 4 fatalities.  Actually I can only remember three, if you include one where someone died on a boat in the night.  As for the other two, I cannot see that any extra staff training or videos would have prevented either of them.

Sounds like risk aversion, to me.

[Chelsea14Ian]

There was a chap ,who fell into the water at Loddon,pulled out but died later.

[Mouldy]

10 hours ago, rightsaidfred said:

Guess that depends on whats normal and how many are contributing but I doubt anything will go down especially if the fleets continue to shrink as forecast.

Fred

The size of hire fleets may be shrinking, but the number of privately owned craft is increasing.  I would guess that the majority of craft being sold by the likes of Richos, Barnes and NBD are remaining on the Broads, together with craft that are being brought in from other waterways.

[JennyMorgan]

35 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

Is anyone seriously expecting the tolls to stay the same next year?  Or maybe go down?

Certainly I'm not! 

What I do object to is the blatant waste of what is effectively OUR cash, oh dear, where should I start on that one?

On top of that, any excuse to grab yet more of OUR cash. Granted there are often good reasons but that is different to poor excuses.

There is an undesirable culture of galloping obfuscation which has lead to an understandable level of distrust along the rhond.

Above inflation increases at this time are bound to raise hackles.

Any increase in the toll allows for greater spending elsewhere within the organisation. 

[Oddfellow]

15 hours ago, Mouldy said:

It doesn’t matter how much training you give some people - you can’t teach stupid.  The big yards will not have time to give full and thorough instructions on boat handling and safety on changeover days, so it will be left to the hirers to watch videos that may or may not be watched.  Perhaps the higher proportion of increase in tolls should have been levied on the hire fleets, as that would appear to be where majority of incidents seem to occur.

 

Ah, the us and them again. This really pi&&es me off. 

For a start, of the four tragic accidents I can recall last year, 2 were private boats, so not a majority. 

2021 is already off to a depleted hire fleet with the closure of Freedom. Yes, I know that Broom is said to be offering day boats and Horning Pleasure Craft is boosting its numbers, but 2021 will also see the closure of another small yard and without hire fleets, diversity, choice and revenue are ALL hit and that will hit private owner's pockets again in the future. 

I seriously doubt that any additional training of holidaymakers at handover, unless handover is significantly lengthened in time (like to hours), there will be any further knowledge gained by most holidaymakers. This needs a majorly structured approach where there is a huge shift to getting people to begin knowledge gathering at the point of booking. A new structure needs to be given to people that gets them thinking about their safety, etc, from the moment they get their booking confirmation in much the same way that they might be expected to be advisedly cautious about booking a mountain climbing expedition. 

That's a big ask and will take more than 4%. 

 

[JennyMorgan]

Andy, I don't expect you to agree with me but surely the training of holiday makers should largely be down to the hire industry? As for the training of private boat owners, that should surely be down to the individual? 

Granted that there would and should be shared safety measures but it strikes me that the hire industry is not now paying its fair share at the moment. Witness the injustice of boat storage afloat. There is an understandable drop in toll income for 2020 and we are now expected to pay for it. In fairness to us all it would be interesting to know what was the drop in toll income from both the hire and the private fleets. 

[CambridgeCabby]

No one likes to see an increase in any form of taxation but it is inevitable , I can remember when I was a smoker saying once they cost £3 a pack I would stop , I did but it took me 25 years , I can also remember my old customers saying that if beer went over £1.20 a pint they would stop drinking , to the best of my knowledge none of them have gone teetotal yet.

The tolls on The Broads even with a 4% price hike represent IMHO excellent value compared to other waterways  , and a relatively minor cost compared to the annual cost of running a private boat .

The increase this year will cost us an additional £11.24 or less than a packet of Kates cigarettes 

[floydraser]

Just my sideways thinking again but:

From another thread: back in 1975 there were 20 drownings in the previous 5 years. It looks like statiscally we haven't moved on.

From another thread: Some people have been told over and over again about the danger of Covid 19 but choose to accept the risk and carry on as normal. Ditto smoking.  The BA are trying to build a blame shield for future claims. 

4% is just about ok but it's not the best example to show your industry. How many marinas have increased prices?

[Oddfellow]

53 minutes ago, JennyMorgan said:

Andy, I don't expect you to agree with me but surely the training of holiday makers should largely be down to the hire industry? As for the training of private boat owners, that should surely be down to the individual? 

Granted that there would and should be shared safety measures but it strikes me that the hire industry is not now paying its fair share at the moment. Witness the injustice of boat storage afloat. There is an understandable drop in toll income for 2020 and we are now expected to pay for it. In fairness to us all it would be interesting to know what was the drop in toll income from both the hire and the private fleets. 

Peter, yes, I do agree with you. Fully. What I don't agree with is the bashing of the BA on this matter for its vested interest in sorting this out. 

As a public relations exercise at its very base, this is a damn good idea. The industry as a whole has done nothing pro-actively about this, so is it not a good thing that the licensing authority, which is clearly damned if it does and damned if it doesn't, steps in and offers some form of assistance? 

You don't get behind the wheel of a car without training and passing a test. Perhaps this is what is needed here? 

I am not advocating this, only throwing it into the discussion as a valid argument to make. 

 

[Turnoar]

Being as I’m a five minute drive from either canal or the Bure I’m pondering getting a SUP having tried it out at Wroxham a while back, advantage being the elevated view over a canoe, bit like flybridge vs single level. Anyhow, BA toll looks to be 35, British Canoe Union 45. The extra 10 quid gives some 3rd party insurance cover benefit so I would probably do the latter. I know a lot of people who have taken up canoeing and supping recently who didn't know this was an option so just sticking my oar in case forum members are interested.

[Hylander]

When we hired from  Caley Cruisers  on the Caledonian Canal , before we went anywhere near the boat you had to attend a film session where , do's and don'ts were all pointed out to you.  This was followed by a detailed lecture given on each boat to the Skipper.    Then you were taken out on a short trip to see how competent you were.      If you did not pass muster then you were going nowhere.      Being realistic, can you imagine if Richardsons had this to undertake when some days 150 boats go out.  It aint gonna happen.

[MauriceMynah]

I don't think I can call to mind any  price rises that have been below the stated rate of inflation, why should the BA be any different? 

This topic (Toll rises) comes up each year, normally with the same people saying much the same things. The only problem I see is that people demand transparency, then don't like what they see.

Why can we not just accept the reality that the BA will decide how much the tolls will go up, find some excuse for it, ignore the flack and just go ahead and do it. We can do nothing about it. We will never be able to do anything about it, and even if we could, we probably would not do anything about it. 

[dnks34]

We can do nothing about it but all threads like this actually achieve is paving the way for the next years 4% increase let alone this one.

The BA needs to learn to live within its means.  Year on year increases at the levels they are in my opinion demonstrate failings within.  Whether that be financial incompetence or an intent to show blatant contempt for Toll payers we will never know but one things for sure, keep massaging their EGO each year and nothing will ever change. 

God forbid one year they might actually acknowledge how much Toll payers have been hammered in the last 10 years and impose a less insulting increase.  Pigs might fly.

How much did the Acle fantasy project waste as one example.  Its such wastage Toll payers will inevitably be picking up the tab for let alone training the drunken holiday makers not to put themselves in harms way. 

[rightsaidfred]

9 minutes ago, dnks34 said:

We can do nothing about it but all threads like this actually achieve is paving the way for the next years 4% increase let alone this one.

The BA needs to learn to live within its means.  Year on year increases at the levels they are in my opinion demonstrate failings within.  Whether that be financial incompetence or an intent to show blatant contempt for Toll payers we will never know but one things for sure, keep massaging their EGO each year and nothing will ever change. 

God forbid one year they might actually acknowledge how much Toll payers have been hammered in the last 10 years and impose a less insulting increase.  Pigs might fly.

How much did the Acle fantasy project waste as one example.  Its such wastage Toll payers will inevitably be picking up the tab for let alone training the drunken holiday makers not to put themselves in harms way. 

Just to play devils advocate in the interest of balance how many who object to any increase in tolls will complain at the lack of dredging, maintainence of 24hr moorings, lack of chasing non toll payers etc or Rangers clamping down on anti social behaviour be content that at least they havnt had to dig in their pockets.

Fred

[BroadAmbition]

How many other Quangos and / or government organisations out there every year set increases way above the annual rate of inflation?  And I do mean every year since I have been keeping an eye on it?  I can understand the odd purse busting increase now and again due to exceptional circumstances, but every year?

Prior to 2007 I had no idea what increases were levied on toll payers both private and hire

Since 2007 every single year we have endured an above inflation hike in tolls.  There is no stopping them or recourse for their actions.  This years is four times the annual rate of inflation.  What some on here and no doubt further afield fail to appreciate the percentage increases are levied on pervious above inflation increases which just exacerbates the situation

In 2007 our 'B.A's annual river toll was £275 after this years 4% increase our toll will be £581, up by £22, not a lot in the grand scheme of things but in principle we are yet again on the receiving end of 'The Bird'.  Our river toll has more than doubled in 14 years.  Have other taxes / tolls doubled in fourteen years?  Can you imagine the treasury  increasing taxes / vat each year to that tune? The sitting government - They would be voted out of office pronto.  That's my point, this lot have a free reign / carte blanche to do as they please year in year out with no consultation from the end user whatsoever 

Griff

[MaceSwinger]

4 hours ago, FreedomBoatingHols said:

Ah, the us and them again. This really pi&&es me off. 

For a start, of the four tragic accidents I can recall last year, 2 were private boats, so not a majority. 

2021 is already off to a depleted hire fleet with the closure of Freedom. Yes, I know that Broom is said to be offering day boats and Horning Pleasure Craft is boosting its numbers, but 2021 will also see the closure of another small yard and without hire fleets, diversity, choice and revenue are ALL hit and that will hit private owner's pockets again in the future. 

I seriously doubt that any additional training of holidaymakers at handover, unless handover is significantly lengthened in time (like to hours), there will be any further knowledge gained by most holidaymakers. This needs a majorly structured approach where there is a huge shift to getting people to begin knowledge gathering at the point of booking. A new structure needs to be given to people that gets them thinking about their safety, etc, from the moment they get their booking confirmation in much the same way that they might be expected to be advisedly cautious about booking a mountain climbing expedition. 

That's a big ask and will take more than 4%. 

 

What irks me is it seems the tragic incidents last year weren't necessarily as a result of poor training or HO/TO with the yards. They were a result of people not doing what they will have been told to do. Even at Barnes we still managed a fairly thorough handover/takeover with them, especially where safety was concerned. I really do feel for the families who were affected last year, but surely "don't shove your mate into the river" isn't something that should need to be said?

The whole "them and us" argument from private owners will never cease to irritate me. The whole thing smacks of elitism and that, to me, is not what Broads boating should be about. Or maybe I imagined that private gin palace side swiping us on a mooring last year?

The idea of a bit of pre-training is interesting. The amount of time people waste on Facebook quizzes, perhaps something along those lines would work?