Another 10%

[NeilB]

4 hours ago, Vaughan said:

 

 

I think perhaps it is time I owned up and admitted that I have already decided to get out, while the going is good.  Susie and I sold our boat at the end of June.

I have already posted here on the forum that I have no faith in the future of the Broads at this rate and if nothing is done about the attitude of the BA (and the RSPB for that matter) then it is only going to get worse.

There is a very old saying in the Navy, that goes right back to Nelson's days :

Isn't it funny how the rats always know when to desert a sinking ship?

I wondered why your boat had moved from Stalham to South Walsham Broad!

[OldBerkshireBoy]

2 hours ago, Vaughan said:

By the way, this 10% increase would have meant, for me, a rise of more than £160 over two years.

Wasn't it a very well known member of the Authority itself, who announced last year that "it is only a round of drinks"?  He must drink with a lot of friends, in his yacht club.

I dont know as I wasnt there but perhaps he meant three pints once a week over a year.

[marshman]

Whilst I know its not very relevant, can anyone remember when the DEFRA grant was cut? I expect that Pally will tell me!

Again not very relevant, but it does show how pernicious inflation is and how it can impact all manner of things.

Please don't think that this is meant to justify any action whatsoever but leaving the EU will unquestionably have reduced some of the grants available although I think they still get some. As Chris Dobson pointed out in an earlier post on here somewhere, the BA like many other similar institutions finances never look good apart from tolls, purely because their income sources are pretty variable and vary greatly.

Yes I know I no longer have a boat, and its easy for  me to say!!!

[dnks34]

In my opinion private boat owners have long been exploited by the BA.  Continuing toll rises at levels seen over the last 15 years are not sustainable forever no matter what cloud Dr P has is head in. 
 

From 2009 to 2018 our toll had almost doubled, from when we sold in 2018 to now it cant have far off doubled again.  
 

I dont know what long term harm Dr P is trying to inflict on the Broads as an Industry but he is doing a very good job of ruining it for everyone. 
 

For many the cost vs benefit tipping point may soon be reached.

[rightsaidfred]

4 hours ago, marshman said:

Whilst I know its not very relevant, can anyone remember when the DEFRA grant was cut? I expect that Pally will tell me!

Again not very relevant, but it does show how pernicious inflation is and how it can impact all manner of things.

Please don't think that this is meant to justify any action whatsoever but leaving the EU will unquestionably have reduced some of the grants available although I think they still get some. As Chris Dobson pointed out in an earlier post on here somewhere, the BA like many other similar institutions finances never look good apart from tolls, purely because their income sources are pretty variable and vary greatly.

Yes I know I no longer have a boat, and its easy for  me to say!!!

With due respect the Defra grant and tolls are different animals and with the exception of some overheads should not impact on each other, the tolls are ring fenced for navigation purposes the DEFRA grant for so called NP and general activities, a responsible business conducts its activities according to income the BA wants to increase its income to suit its ambitions without actually maintaining or providing the same or better facilities.

Fred

 

[dnks34]

Can anyone tell me how the River Commissioners were funded before the invention of the BA.  Was it solely from toll income or did they also receive government grants.  I believe their remit was much more focused on maintaining the waterways rather than trying to get a finger in as many pies as possible like the BA do. 
 

Personally I think the BA are involved in far more areas than they ought to be and if they were just to concentrate on one area such as maintaining the waterway which is possibly what their original intended purpose may have been they might find it easier to make the money go round.

[BroadAmbition]

DNKS34 - Oh if only

Griff

[Troyboy]

This has been very interesting reading. I am, in my mind, constantly trying to offset buying a boat,with the associated fees, against 4 weeks hire a year. Having owned two boats in the past I do think that there is nothing nicer than cruising the Broads in your own boat. However the costs are becoming untenable. How long will it be before a large percentage of boat owners give it up altogether.  

[ExSurveyor]

I would think that scenario would depend on hire costs not rising above the level of increasing ownership costs.

The biggest cost of owning a boat has got to be home mooring fees, a 10% increase on these overshadows 10% on tolls.

[dnks34]

1 hour ago, Troyboy said:

This has been very interesting reading. I am, in my mind, constantly trying to offset buying a boat,with the associated fees, against 4 weeks hire a year. Having owned two boats in the past I do think that there is nothing nicer than cruising the Broads in your own boat. However the costs are becoming untenable. How long will it be before a large percentage of boat owners give it up altogether.  

A big consideration has also got to be the travel time and costs for the increased number of times you will want to use your own boat per year against just visiting 4 times to hire. 

[Broads01]

17 hours ago, Vaughan said:

think perhaps it is time I owned up and admitted that I have already decided to get out, while the going is good.  Susie and I sold our boat at the end of June.

I'm sad about that, Vaughan. Your ongoing passion and deeply held connection to the Broads is always evident, despite the increasing sense of despondency and frustration that's evident too. I hope you and Susie will return.

[floydraser]

I just wonder if they've let the figure of 10% escape so that they can settle on 9% and claim they're being generous.

[Vaughan]

6 hours ago, Broads01 said:

I'm sad about that, Vaughan. Your ongoing passion and deeply held connection to the Broads is always evident, despite the increasing sense of despondency and frustration that's evident too. I hope you and Susie will return.

Thank you for that Simon.  If Richardsons' prices ever get back to a reasonable level, I am sure we will.

At least I have all my happy memories of - literally - a lifetime in the boating holiday business.  I grew up in the days when the Broads really was a different place.  Still very much like Coot Club, in fact.  At least no Quango can take that away from me!

[Vaughan]

12 hours ago, dnks34 said:

Can anyone tell me how the River Commissioners were funded before the invention of the BA.

The Rivers Bure and Waveney Commissioners were a subdivision of the Gt Yarmouth Port and Haven Commissioners, who were also responsible for the Yare, as it was a sea navigation to the port of Norwich.

They were a voluntary body of local people, who simply drew a small director's fee and did it because they were genuinely involved in and concerned with, the Broads.  Their Chairman in the 60's was Desmond Truman, boatbuilder of Oulton Broad and another was Martin Broom.  Others were professionals, such as Standley Bushell and Jimmy Hipwell (who was Sheriff of Norwich) and Ian Mackintosh, of Rountree Mackintosh in Norwich (and Aquafibre).  I think Lady Mayhew was another.

The actual running of the operation was effectively in the hands of the Chief River Inspector, Charles Collier.

They were responsible for the maintenance of the navigation, which included dredging in conjunction with the needs of the local Drainage Boards. The running of the countryside itself was in the hands of the Rural District Councils, one of the biggest being Blofield and Flegg.  "Flegg Island" is the large area of high ground in the middle of the Broads area, "the great estuary", stretching from Reedham to Thorpe, northwards up beyond Thurne and over towards Ranworth and Horning.

Doesn't sound much like the Broads Authority, does it?

[bucket]

17 hours ago, Troyboy said:

This has been very interesting reading. I am, in my mind, constantly trying to offset buying a boat,with the associated fees, against 4 weeks hire a year. Having owned two boats in the past I do think that there is nothing nicer than cruising the Broads in your own boat. However the costs are becoming untenable. How long will it be before a large percentage of boat owners give it up altogether.  

If you are looking to hiring 4 weeks each year, have you considered syndicate ownership? I can highly recommend it and Helen mentioned that a share is available on Moonlight Shadow .....other syndicates are also available.

[Troyboy]

1 hour ago, bucket said:

If you are looking to hiring 4 weeks each year, have you considered syndicate ownership? I can highly recommend it and Helen mentioned that a share is available on Moonlight Shadow .....other syndicates are also available.

I agree that a share syndicate is a great way to enjoy the broads as I've mentioned. It is also a very cheap way. Due to a health issue at home I have just given up my share in a syndicate, which is a shame because the syndicate I was in was fantastic. I would recommend it to anyone. 

[bucket]

I am so sorry Troyboy to hear about your health issue at home, it must have been a difficult decision for you to have to take to sell your boat share. I hope that you will be able to get back on the Broads soon...

 

[LondonRascal]

I've had a quick glance at the report, and views expressed here. It seems much the same as years past when the Broads Authority have shared their projections, almsot as if to make the actual increases easy to stomach. They have for a while not had much money when you look at what they get, and what they spend. The issue is being repeated with the Canal and River Trust and a huge can of worms having been opened up for Canal users whose licence costs and terms are changing.

I think it is pretty basic things showing their ugly face. The country is in a pretty bad time economically and things are really starting to bite. The Broads Authority have for several years been looking at dark holes in the finances and hoping big Toll increases would help patch them up - this has not been working. No Government will want to be seen doing too much for inland waterways, be it the Broads or the Canals when it effects such a small proportion of people, when frankly they are not able to fund our healthcare system, education and law and order to the right degrees. Any public service is cash strapped, and the number of companies going bust is on track for being the highest this year since 2009. Not nice to think about, but in my opinion very valid.

I don't think there is any easy way out of this. I think there are going to be a reduction in hire fleet numbers, and many private boat owners are going to be looking at the ownership costs - leave aside usage costs, from fuel to pump outs, meaning next year may well be their last season. What is the biggest problem is it can only get worse - fewer boats be it private of hire = less income.  With less income, less money for basic upkeep of rivers, moorings and no new investment. Loss of services and moorings mean the area will loose it's appeal to those who might want to holiday here on a boat, or own one. Bit by bit the rot will spread and I cannot see once that process has gathered speed, how one might reverse it.

I guess what may have to happen one day is the Broads Authority really has to 'lean up' and relinquishes some of the roles it has taken on in more prosperous times and focus more on basics like navigation, the environment. The current leadership won't like that, but it may well be what causes change at the top - but sadly, may well then be too late for businesses and holiday makers on the Broads.

[MargeandParge]

Innovation seems to be a problem as well as cutting your cloth as any governing body or business should do.

I would like to know how much the two trip boats from Ranworth cost the toll payer as with two paid staff and all the electrification the costs per head must be huge.

Hardly ever seen the covered one ever go out and when it does it only has two in it.

Why isn't it at Norwich yacht station taking people under the Bridge into the heart of Norwich with a skipper that has knowledge could be the culmination of a walking tour of Norwich with maybe a refreshment on board. Perhaps as a surprise lowered into the boat helping a local business.  It could do a trip between the walking tours as well and make instead of fritter where the footfall is.

Rant over.

Kindest Regards a very quiet Marge and old Parge with attitude 

 

[Vaughan]

Very well considered post, thank you Robin. I totally agree with you as this is what I have been saying myself.

12 hours ago, LondonRascal said:

Bit by bit the rot will spread and I cannot see once that process has gathered speed, how one might reverse it.

Except I would say that it has been spreading for some time now.  I was one of the ones put out of business in the recession of the early 80's, when the BA was brand new.  I don't think they made the right decisions then (if they made any) and they have been playing "catch up" on it ever since.  I think it becomes a lot clearer, why all those who I remember in the hire business, never wanted the BA in the first place!   A good friend of mine, who knows them well, says they suffer from serious "mission creep".  Too much empire building, vanity projects and "working with partners" has taken their eye off the ball.

And you ask me why I don't like the idea of a National Park??

[Vaughan]

On 29/10/2023 at 17:53, dnks34 said:

Can anyone tell me how the River Commissioners were funded before the invention of the BA.  Was it solely from toll income or did they also receive government grants.

Reading back on my post about the Commissioners, I don't think I actually answered the question!

The Commissioners were funded from river tolls but the dredging and flood bank maintenance was also subsidised by the Drainage Boards, who charged drainage rates to local businesses, farmers and landowners.  Nowadays the BA does its own river maintenance with its own equipment, but the Commissioners contracted all this out to May Gurneys (ex J.S.Hobrough) on Griffin Lane in Thorpe.

The Commissioners had no moorings of their own (except perhaps at Neatishead) and public staithes were run by the local parishes, heavy subsidised by Blakes.  Norwich CC ran their yacht station and Yarmouth YS was run by Blakes.

Bear in mind that hire boats in those days paid 3 times the toll of a private boat - and there were 3000 hire boats on the Broads. They could afford to pay these tolls as the average hire season then, was 27 weeks.  So there was adequate funding and it was well spent, on its specific purpose.

This may explain why everyone, including naturalists such as Dr. Ted Ellis and Dr. Martin George (of the Nature Conservancy) knew full well that the Broads had to be commercially successful, in order to be properly maintained.  Tell that to the "re-wilders" of the RSPB!

 

[Bikertov]

3 hours ago, Vaughan said:

Very well considered post, thank you Robin. I totally agree with you as this is what I have been saying myself.

Except I would say that it has been spreading for some time now.  I was one of the ones put out of business in the recession of the early 80's, when the BA was brand new.  I don't think they made the right decisions then (if they made any) and they have been playing "catch up" on it ever since.  I think it becomes a lot clearer, why all those who I remember in the hire business, never wanted the BA in the first place!   A good friend of mine, who knows them well, says they suffer from serious "mission creep".  Too much empire building, vanity projects and "working with partners" has taken their eye off the ball.

And you ask me why I don't like the idea of a National Park??

This is the problem with the relentless increase in Quangos and bureaucracy. It is very easy to spend "other peoples money" when you are given a grant and do not have to produce anything to earn it, or be commercially viable.

Of course, you have to offer top salaries to a load of staff in order to attract "the best/right talent" at "market rates" with an "attractive benefits package" - people that would otherwise be tempted into the private sector to actually make money for the country.

You then spend it all to justify it was needed, because if you don't you were clearly given too much in the first place. Then you ask for a bit more next year, "for inflation" and because you have produced a report that reinforces your own beliefs and then increase your own remit in the process. Add in to that the fact that you just HAVE to account for a bit of inclusivity and diversity in your organisation, irrespective of the lack of any benefit, and all of a sudden £££m's are being spent on not achieving anything of the original aim of the quango.

Just look all around you in the public sector for evidence of this. Local councils going bust due to mismanagement and wastage of funds, yet services seem to decline because "there is no money".

Sorry for the rant, I will stop now ....

[Vaughan]

On 30/10/2023 at 06:28, Vaughan said:

the Rural District Councils, one of the biggest being Blofield and Flegg.

Just out of interest, I have remembered that, as the district and parish boundaries ran up the old main river through Thorpe, this put Harts Island in the Forehoe and Henstead district, which circled south of Norwich and ran down the Yare through Surlingham, Rockland and Buckenham, before it became part of Loddon District.

The word "Flegg" sounds a bit Viking to me - as is Thorpe.  Back to the days of the "Danegeld". 

St Benet's abbey, the peat pits, and all that!

Edited to add :

It'll all be going back to a peat bog, at this rate!

[Vaughan]

I am told that there is an article in the EDP this morning which suggests that a mutiny is brewing on the Broads after the recent meeting of the Nav. Committee, regarding the toll increase.

Unfortunately I can't seem to call up the EDP website on my screen this morning.  

Perhaps someone could link it for us as I am told it is quite a long article.

[Woodie]

https://www.edp24.co.uk/news/23910091.norfolk-boat-owners-hit-huge-10pc-toll-rise/?ref=suit