Electricity At Moorings

[VetChugger]

As you may guess, this "debate" is going on in various places. I'll ask the same question here as elsewhere! Has anyone actually had a card recharged yet?? It would make sense to me if you bought a card, initially you would have 80p or so credit in sparks, then, when the same card is recharged, you will get a full quids worth of sparks! I'm not saying this is legal or anything else but it would explain a so called "admin" charge for the cost of the card initially!

[kfurbank]

1 hour ago, JennyMorgan said:

Perhaps the BA should publish Matt's letter in a manner that ensures that all card users receive it.

Peter, A wider audience for misleading information achieves nothing, then to mislead more people. The OFGEM rules are specific and designed to cater for most situations. They are probably not drafted with the situation we have on The Broads with a wide variety of different people paying for such small amounts of electricity over such an array of outlets. However the law is the law, even if The BA decide they know a better version of the law. It may not suit their particular network of electrical outlets, but it is still the law. Like it or not, the overall cost of maintaining and administering this network has to come from another source other than the sale of cards, including the cost of the card itself. Since the BA is a public, not for profit body, it has to come from another income stream, more than likely the toll account which does mean that everyone is paying for a facility they may or may not use. Right or wrong morally, the law dictates the way it should be.

With this in mind I have made a FOI to find out A. How much is the cost of this recent little upgrade project, and B Which budget is it being charged to? We are 17 working days into a 20 day response period and still waiting, although I think David Harris could be a little busy at the moment.

 

[kfurbank]

38 minutes ago, VetChugger said:

As you may guess, this "debate" is going on in various places. I'll ask the same question here as elsewhere! Has anyone actually had a card recharged yet?? It would make sense to me if you bought a card, initially you would have 80p or so credit in sparks, then, when the same card is recharged, you will get a full quids worth of sparks! I'm not saying this is legal or anything else but it would explain a so called "admin" charge for the cost of the card initially!

Trevor, The cards are sold with £1 credit. The meter accepts that credit in return for a unit price set on the meter therefore the meter does not know the difference between a new card, or a recharged card. It will put £1 credit on for every valid (recharged or not) card it reads.  For what it's worth I don't believe these cards can be recharged, or if they are that The BA has attempted to do any to date. None the less each card you use will put £1 on the meter at 22.p per unit. These cards can be purchased from the supplier in larger denominations such as £5, £10 etc, and should be sold at face value. It is not possible to buy a 77.5p card and sell it for a £1.

[JennyMorgan]

I really do think that we need to bare with the Authority on this one if we really do need to be able to plug in. As Keith has said the Broads is probably unique in its application of these supply outlets and unfortunately the BA is trying to fit a square plug into a round hole in order to provide what really is a make-do system.

Because so many of the cards will be used by holiday makers and visitors I doubt that these cards can be considered anything but disposable. That is unless the yards themselves have the facility to recharge each boat's card.

My guess is that the power posts, call 'em what you will, were designed for marina use rather than for moorings dotted around the Broads and that the BA has chosen the system that it has as being the best and most suitable available. Personally I reckon that they would have been better advised to have scrapped the whole darn lot and put it down to a bad experience! Either that or hand it over to a commercial enterprise.

It strikes me that my bog standard mobile phone has it sussed. I run out of credit, I phone up, pay my pennies and my account is topped up, what could be more simple? Could such a system be applied to an electricity  supply? Not without a hugely expensive upgrade I suspect!

[grendel]

where I feel the may be falling foul of OFGEM would be advertising the cards as £1 credit, if they charged £1.20 for a £1 credit card. clearly stating that the 20p was an administration charge, and had the meters set at the highest allowable for the unit rate by OFGEM, then that should be acceptable, its by not differentiating and adding a high (unknown) charge at the meter that they may be operating illegally. has anyone tried contacting OFGEM and asking them if what the BA are doing is the legal way of recovering their costs.

While I accept that the only way of recovering costs is by charging for the administration, I would like to see a more open admission of what part of the cost was administration, and what part the actual energy usage. I suspect that while their charges may accurately reflect the costs involved (remote electricity meters can be very expensive to get the supply to) that we wont like the answer if they did clearly state the costs.

[ZimbiIV]

At Lodden on saturday night we used 80p of leccy, last night at WRC we used 50p, using a similar amount of lights, tv etc. Only difference was we charged phones/tablets here at WRC. 

paul

[kfurbank]

1 hour ago, grendel said:

where I feel the may be falling foul of OFGEM would be advertising the cards as £1 credit, if they charged £1.20 for a £1 credit card. clearly stating that the 20p was an administration charge, and had the meters set at the highest allowable for the unit rate by OFGEM, then that should be acceptable, its by not differentiating and adding a high (unknown) charge at the meter that they may be operating illegally. has anyone tried contacting OFGEM and asking them if what the BA are doing is the legal way of recovering their costs.

While I accept that the only way of recovering costs is by charging for the administration, I would like to see a more open admission of what part of the cost was administration, and what part the actual energy usage. I suspect that while their charges may accurately reflect the costs involved (remote electricity meters can be very expensive to get the supply to) that we wont like the answer if they did clearly state the costs.

Grendel, in another place Palandine has given very good research on the subject and spoken with the citizens advice service twice. They deal with this issue on a near daily basis due to rogue residential landlords so are well versed on the subject.

The BA head of finanace has replied to Palandine explaining how they have arrived at their unit cost and believing they are trying to comply with the rules. The BA solicitor has replied saying that he doesn't necessarily think that the rules apply to The BA, but he "thinks" they are complying anyway.??? The CA think differently.

For what it's worth I believe the cards in use are disposable ones because they have a denomination printed on them. Rechargeable cards would be issued to a person and have no amount on them because the end user would go in and get it topped up with whatever value they needed at that time. In a standard marina scenario you might decide to top up with £50 for a couple of Winter months, but only £10 for a couple of Summer months. As you would be the only user of the post you would leave as much credit on the post as you felt you needed for a given period. 

I have seen the Digicard disposable cards for sale at 35p each for a 100 cards. The face value is irrelevant to the price when buying them as a landlord. So it follows that in a marina scenario they would never stock the £1 card. More likely the £10, £20 or £50 card. The cost of supplying those cards would be at the marinas expense and ultimately reclaimed through the annual mooring fees, but it could NOT be reclaimed by increasing the unit cost at the post. So the cost to the marina of supplying a £20 card would be 35p, or the cost of supplying 20 x £1 card would be £7. Ultimately the marina would recover either cost through the annual mooring fee. You can probably see therefore that these systems work very well in static situations. Very good for residential tenant use who would more than likely have a rechargeable card. Very good in marina annual berth use with the use of higher value disposable cards. I'm guessing the smaller £1 card works well in camp sites or visiting marina berths were the cost of 2 or 3 £1 cards per night would be factored into the overnight pitch fee or marina berth fee charged. Whilst you may not be aware of it, your £12 pitch fee may actually contain an element of the recovery of the disposable card fee.

IT doesn't work well for The BA because they cannot add the costs of the cards to the unit charge. They are having to use the smallest denomination card and therefore the most expensive way of admin, 35p per card. (I accept they can probably buy cheaper by buying in bulk, my price was for a 100 cards) and they are not able to recover that cost by way of an overnight mooring fee which includes the admin charge. Therefore they must recover this fee through the annual toll revenue stream, and possibly any profit from the yacht stations.

Peter has suggested that people bear with The Authority. Can I suggest that its due to their actions that finally more and more people are fed up with their actions and lashing out in all directions at any conceivable point they can, be it big or small. I was always neutral when it came to dealings with The BA, but I don't remember a time in the last 12 years of various forum memberships, when the image of The BA was at a lower point. Peter, I finally fully agree with you. It is time for change.   

[Islander]

http://www.jwsmartmeters.co.uk/contactless-cards-for-rfid-mp22-prepay-meters

 

i posted this link elsewhere. It makes interesting reading. 1000 £1 cards would cost £250 i.e. 25p each. So the BA must have done a better deal or are buying in larger quantities.

The new meters are cheaper than the old 'clunk' type. You can also read about the software for recharging them.  

Colin

[grendel]

It is specifically stated in the OFGEM information about recharging, that only the cost of the electricity and standing charges may be recouped, no costs for the installation or maintenance may be added:-

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/ofgem-publications/74486/11782-resaleupdateoct05.pdf

(see example 8a for the statement)

[ExUserGone]

What ever the ofgem rules may be if you need electricity at the side of a river and you don't think you should pay a little extra for that convenience then just go without, I have no objection to it being a little bit more than it is at home per unit.

Are ofgem rules really aimed at this kind of system, I don't think so somehow.(no I hav'nt read any of them before anyone asks and no I'm not intending to)

[Guest]

39 minutes ago, Dilligaf said:

What ever the ofgem rules may be if you need electricity at the side of a river and you don't think you should pay a little extra for that convenience then just go without, I have no objection to it being a little bit more than it is at home per unit.

Are ofgem rules really aimed at this kind of system, I don't think so somehow.(no I hav'nt read any of them before anyone asks and no I'm not intending to)

All I'll say is they apply to C&RT and marinas so I would be very surprised if they don't  apply to BA .

[diesel falcon]

Just spent the night at Loddon.......the shop has run out of cards! great, a friend had some from last week so we put 3 boats on a post, cost of one night £3 pounds 20 pence......yes its dearer than the old system.

[Poppy]

2 hours ago, Dilligaf said:

What ever the ofgem rules may be if you need electricity at the side of a river and you don't think you should pay a little extra for that convenience then just go without, I have no objection to it being a little bit more than it is at home per unit.

Are ofgem rules really aimed at this kind of system, I don't think so somehow.(no I hav'nt read any of them before anyone asks and no I'm not intending to)

I couldn't agree more. Like it or go without I'm afraid!!

[kfurbank]

2 hours ago, Dilligaf said:

What ever the ofgem rules may be if you need electricity at the side of a river and you don't think you should pay a little extra for that convenience then just go without, I have no objection to it being a little bit more than it is at home per unit.

Are ofgem rules really aimed at this kind of system, I don't think so somehow.(no I hav'nt read any of them before anyone asks and no I'm not intending to)

 

Just now, Poppy said:

I couldn't agree more. Like it or go without I'm afraid!!

So your both ok with The BA not following the rules set by a government agency? Would that mean you also support The BA not following it's own rules, or even making up it's own rules?

If The BA follow the OFGEM rules then the cost of the cards needs to be recovered from another budget and that would be the toll account, so we all end up subsidising the network whether we use the posts much or not. Fair or not? probably not, but no excuse to ignore the rules from a government agency.

Isn't The BA just an unelected government quango?, maybe we can all follow their example and just ignore their rules?

[dnks34]

3 boats on one post for a nights electric cost £3.20........or was this each?

If it were for all 3 I wouldnt say just over £1 for the convenience of a nights electric is expensive! 

 

[Poppy]

Just now, kfurbank said:

 

So your both ok with The BA not following the rules set by a government agency? Would that mean you also support The BA not following it's own rules, or even making up it's own rules?

If The BA follow the OFGEM rules then the cost of the cards needs to be recovered from another budget and that would be the toll account, so we all end up subsidising the network whether we use the posts much or not. Fair or not? probably not, but no excuse to ignore the rules from a government agency.

Isn't The BA just an unelected government quango?, maybe we can all follow their example and just ignore their rules?

Some issues are worthy of protest....

[Bound2Please]

I think the BA post should have a fitting just for the charging of Electric powered craft (only available to electric powered craft). After all this was the original idea of said posts.. When we firsted started on the broads there was no such thing, 12v TV to be hired as an optional extra. If people want 240v at moorings they should pay all costs involved, not the toll payers.

Charlie

[diesel falcon]

30 minutes ago, dnks34 said:

3 boats on one post for a nights electric cost £3.20........or was this each?

If it were for all 3 I wouldnt say just over £1 for the convenience of a nights electric is expensive! 

 

i said dearer, than the old system, was for 3 boats

[quo vadis]

7 minutes ago, diesel falcon said:

i said dearer, than the old system, was for 3 boats

Just to make this a little clearer I will add

1 I connected all 3 boats to a meter which had 22p on it and this immediately went to £1.22 so you do get £1 per card.

2 we use the power points a lot the same 3 boats on the old tariff we would all use between 50 and 60p each per night

3 I think Stevie Wonder cut the holes in the cases to enable you to read the amount of credit you have

[Poppy]

38 minutes ago, Bound2Please said:

If people want 240v at moorings they should pay all costs involved, not the toll payers.

Charlie

I agree, but electrically powered craft should be exempt.   Vessels with mains electricity should be tolled accordingly to cover the cost of installation and maintenance  of water side supplies!

[dnks34]

49 minutes ago, diesel falcon said:

i said dearer, than the old system, was for 3 boats

Google the meaning of dear (er) 

[johnb]

The statement that you get less than a £1's worth of electricity seems in some cases to be misinterpreted.  Yes, when inserted the card shows £1 credit, but the amount charged per unit is higher, therefore you are getting less for your pound than you should-the "balance" being the cost of the card. My understanding. I could be wrong, Frequently am. Never used the cards or the posts

[JennyMorgan]

2 minutes ago, Poppy said:

I agree, but electrically powered craft should be exempt.   Vessels with mains electricity should be tolled accordingly to cover the cost of installation and maintenance  of water side supplies!

Theoretically quite true but how many boat owners would admit to using mains electricity? It might be against the rules but I really do think that the BA has adopted the best option available to them, unless someone can come up with a better option. If the addition to the tolls route is forced upon the rest of us then hopefully it will only apply to motor craft with enclosed accommodation. I wonder what Ofgem would say if a blanket charge was made to all boat owners, irrespective of whether they use the stuff or not.

[dnks34]

14 minutes ago, Poppy said:

I agree, but electrically powered craft should be exempt.   Vessels with mains electricity should be tolled accordingly to cover the cost of installation and maintenance  of water side supplies!

Cant really agree with this.  

Electricity isnt necessarily green there is pollution involved in its production so an electric boater shouldnt really expect or be entitled to anything for free!

The Broads Authority has form on wasting money on very pointless things yet clawing back every last penny of the cost of supplying electricity to an end user is of importance to them, priorities in order springs to mind. 

Costs do need to be covered but the Broads Authority are there to provide a service.........to amongst other groups BOATERS. 

What happens to all the cash they get from central government nevermind the toll money the get from us.

Has anyone told them this money is for spending on their remit not just on salaries pensions and research after research after pointless consultation.  

Are they that incapable of making a decision without it first costing £££££!!! 

In saying that I dont think the current charges for electricity are excessive and its a valuable facility most of us can only wish to see more of.

If we keep on complaining they will eventually find ways to charge  us for the other thing they are there to provide..........lets pick our battles.........carefully! 

[RegalSafari]

Hi All, 

this may have already been mentioned, but I thought re-charging of electricity requirements apply to touring caravan sites also. 

if anyone is a member of the caravan or camping club it maybe worth asking them for some clarification on re charging for electricity? 

Just a thought?

dave