Sutton Protest.

[Vaughan]

1 hour ago, MauriceMynah said:

I am conscious that some contributers to this thread recognise that not all liveaboards are drug crazy layabout criminals, and that you have some sympathy for those trying to live on vessels rather too small for the task. But has anyone tried to offer any help?

Steady on there, old chap . . . .

The only help I can offer is my verbal support on a platform such as this, which I hope you feel that I have? In fact, in conjunction with JillR, my two brothers-in-law and several others, I fought the BA for 10 years to gain the recognition of the old Hearts boatyard in Thorpe as residential moorings - before I ever joined this forum.  And quite right too!  I grew up there from the age of 6 months, on a boat.  Until I got married at the age of 28 I had never known another family home.  Of course people have the right to moor and live there!

Unfortunately we were not able to achieve the same result a while later, in Jenners basin.  Something that I still view as a gross and disgracefully unjust persecution.

I grew up in the days when there were hundreds of people living on boats on the Broads, either motor boats or houseboats, but all with a mooring of some sort.  The Commissioners also issued a houseboat toll, for those without engines.  Nowadays it is hard job to even hire a houseboat for a holiday, as the BA have decided they don't like them.

I understand what a lot of members are saying about homelessness and dire straights but for me, the issue is more fundamental than that.  There should be no reason whatever why one cannot live on a boat on the Broads, on a private or rented mooring but the BA have set themselves against it and I regard this as bad management of "the navigation".

It is high time they sorted this out as they are very largely responsible for it.

[Lulu]

50 minutes ago, kpnut said:

Is it possible to post a link? I’ve hunted on the internet but can’t find it. 
It always useful to know space availability when cruising nearby, not that it’s relevant at the moment with the bridge virtually unpassable. 

https://wroxhamlaunchhire.co.uk/about-us/live-camera

[BroadAmbition]

MM:-

But has anyone tried to offer any help?

 

Just what help would you suggest we offer?

Turn up with a floating skip to tidy up their bank rubbish?

Tow them about the system to allow other toll payers to share wild moorings?

Pay their river Toll?

Get their boats through the BSS?

Pay for their insurance?

Pay for regular visits to a pump out station?  (Have they ever been?)

Tow them about the system to avoid over staying on 24 Hr moorings during the 'High' season?

Rent them a land based dwelling?

Give them a Job?

Where does it all end?

Griff

[Vaughan]

16 minutes ago, BroadAmbition said:

Tow them about the system to allow other toll payers to share wild moorings?

Perhaps the ranger's launch can do that, as it is the BA who do not allow them to have their own moorings.

As it is, suppose the local land-owner cleared a bit of river bank and allowed a boat-owner to pay a small rent and live there?  What would the BA do? 

Probably spend many more thousands of toll-payers money on forcing an eviction.

[Polly]

MM, you are one of the nicest people I know and your instinct is always to help.

I think a friendly word goes a long way, Griff, as you do yourself. Liveaboards I have met have generally been very pleasant, with the exception of a boat that appeared next to Brilliant’s private mooring just after the Jenners Basin unpleasantness. This person was surly and created a formidable pyramid of empty beer cans on the mooring. 
I would say that the  problem is that ‘help’ as defined by Griff isn’t a practical solution in such an instance. 

[Vaughan]

23 minutes ago, Lulu said:

https://wroxhamlaunchhire.co.uk/about-us/live-camera

God, what have they done to Porter and Haylett's boatyard?

[rightsaidfred]

14 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

Perhaps the ranger's launch can do that, as it is the BA who do not allow them to have their own moorings.

As it is, suppose the local land-owner cleared a bit of river bank and allowed a boat-owner to pay a small rent and live there?  What would the BA do? 

Probably spend many more thousands of toll-payers money on forcing an eviction.

Would that not require planning permission which would require appropriate facilities.

Fred

[MauriceMynah]

The masons have a saying they use. "To give of your money is to give of your wealth,  to give of your time is to give of yourself."

@BroadAmbition you ask what help you can give. I remember giving a member here a doggy life jacket I no longer needed. I left it in the aft well of B Ambition.  Perhaps when you are renewing your ropes you might find a home for the old ones. That's the sort of help I was thinking of.

I now throw nothing away without trying to find a new home for it first.

@kpnut your posts were in no way offensive.

@Vaughan your fight regrding Jenners and moral support of those living there is the stuff of legends, and deserves to be remembered as such.

To all.

I may have been a little ott with my post, I was having a very bad night last night. Generally however I was getting exasperated at the conclusions being jumped to about the Sutton Staithe liveaboards, and their perceived circumstances. 

Having lived on a boat myself now for 3 years, I'm now understanding far more of the problems some of them have. Some are struggling to make ends meet yet are being asked to burn diesel at £2.50 an hour so someone else can moor there for a night. Maybe you hadn't thought of it like that. 

[Smoggy]

I struggle with the point about folk hogging wild moorings, surely a wild mooring is just a bank and has no time limits unless set by the land owner, no one actually has the "right" to moor there they are just tolerated by the land owner or a blind eye turned.

I fully agree about the junk on the banks which being someone elses land is fly tipping and should be dealt with appropriately.

[MauriceMynah]

11 minutes ago, rightsaidfred said:

Would that not require planning permission which would require appropriate facilities.

Fred

Yes it would require planning permission from the planning authority... I wonder who that would be.!

[Ray]

Help comes in many forms, sometimes a simple coffee and a chat will do, maybe a second pair of eyes to go over official documents and forms could help someone bamboozled by seemingly endless rules and requirements. Someone who is alone can quickly become isolated leaving them disadvantaged and unable to access help they may be entitled to.

This applies on the water, in cities and rural villages equally, wanting to help can actually seem quite daunting but being a good neighbour often gives insights into where a little help can be given as a friend.

Sorry to sound preachy or worse still in some eyes "woke" but I'd wager that every member has or would help a neighbour, it just needs a wider view of who our neighbours are

[rightsaidfred]

2 hours ago, MauriceMynah said:

Well,  I've read this whole thread several times and have to say I'm disappointed with some of the comments made. I wonder at those who have said they don't want to see liveaboards hogging wild moorings or to see them overstaying 24 hr moorings. They've got to be somewhere.

I read the comment along the lines of... "living on a boat is always a choice". Are you sure about that? I hadn't realised you were so knowledgeable about my circumstances or those of some of the other liveaboards.  Of those boats  moored on the right just as you come into Sutton Staithe, one of them is a sailing boat that's up for sale but hasn't got a mooring yet. The liveaboards there are keeping an eye on it for the owner. Another has just managed to get full time employment and is trying to get a base mooring, not easy as many yards won't take liveaboards. In fact only one of the craft at Sutton is lived on by someone who will not be helped.

No. The fellow about whom this thread is about is one of very few who cause a problem and who plays the BA for fools.

I suppose that when homelessness was looming, I could have tried to get housing through the council but as the citizens advice fellow told me, as I own 50% of a house, they wouldn't be able to do much for me, and my share of the rent pays for my moorings etc. Sadly not enough for renting a flat though.

I've not read anywhere in this thread anything suggesting that liveaboards are people trying to stand on their own two feet rather than be a burden to the tax payer. 

Finally has anyone heard about low income houses having to make the choice "heat or eat" ?  Yes it is cheaper living on a boat, and yes most of us can do both eat and heat, but some are still struggling.

I am conscious that some contributers to this thread recognise that not all liveaboards are drug crazy layabout criminals, and that you have some sympathy for those trying to live on vessels rather too small for the task. But has anyone tried to offer any help?

MM I understand your feelings and agree with some of what you say and the perspective your coming from, where I disagree is that most of us know or know of several liveaboards including yourself who respect the area and the rights of everyone else to enjoy the facilities and have no issue with this, many of those liveaboards have a home mooring albeit unofficially many don't that's not the problem.

The basis of this thread is around the ones who have total disregard for everyone else, whether they live on a boat from choice or circumstances is irrelevant,  the way they conduct themselves and impact on others is the issue, unacceptable behaviour is the same whether on land or water, the difference here is that on land much of this would be dealt with by the authorities and prosecuted where necessary, on the Broads they abuse the limited powers the BA have and are literally sticking two fingers up at the rest of us law abiding boaters the very ones who are paying for the upkeep of the system they are using.

Fred

[vanessan]

1 hour ago, bucket said:

We love Sutton Staithe. Such a peaceful place to moor and the pub is worth a visit too. We moored there 3 times last year, twice on the green next to "live aboards".  Ok, so the boats may look a bit battered and bruised but those on board have always been pleasant enough.....no problems encountered whatsoever.

As someone who also visits Sutton from time to time, I couldn’t agree more with this. I can see why some of the comments on this post would deter visitors to Sutton but the moorings on the green are not the only ones. There is a long section as you approach the green - what’s wrong with those? Still access to the Sutton Staithe Hotel. 
The vast majority of liveaboards on the Broads are very pleasant people, just a pity that one or two tarnish the rest and cause some boaters to be wary of them all. I wish the BA would/could act with the authority they’re supposed to have and sort something out for them. Having said that, there are always those who either don’t want or refuse to be helped. 

[Graham47]

2 hours ago, kpnut said:

Is it possible to post a link? I’ve hunted on the internet but can’t find it. 
It always useful to know space availability when cruising nearby, not that it’s relevant at the moment with the bridge virtually unpassable. 

The webcam is accessed by a link on the  Wroxham  launch hire website. Addittion to above. I have just seen that Lulu has already posted the link in her earlier post.

[MauriceMynah]

1 hour ago, rightsaidfred said:

The basis of this thread is around the ones who have total disregard for everyone else, whether they live on a boat from choice or circumstances is irrelevant,  the way they conduct themselves and impact on others is the issue.

Agreed all the way. I was just getting miffed at some of the sweeping statements being made.

[RumPunch]

I miss the old boy and his greyhound. OK, only a summer live-aboard, but was to me a perfect example. Kept himself to himself, moved about, didn't leave a mess, and was pleasant to speak to if you took the time  ( Ex RAF copper too ..... ! )

What was his name ... ?

[dom]

3 hours ago, Vaughan said:

God, what have they done to Porter and Haylett's boatyard?

I'm assuming you're referring to the housing right against the river on the left. I think most of that is over what used to be a Broads Tours wet shed. There may have been a little bit of P&H before the bridge over the dyke (there was a historic yard there at one time), but the majority of the yard beyond is all just sat there at the moment (unless anything's changed in the last few months).

Hopefully, the fact the road bridge is over the access to the broad, the close proximity to the railway and the fact it regularly floods might be enough to stop it being redeveloped into yet more expensive housing.

[Vaughan]

10 minutes ago, dom said:

I'm assuming you're referring to the housing right against the river on the left. I think most of that is over what used to be a Broads Tours wet shed. There may have been a little bit of P&H before the bridge over the dyke (there was a historic yard there at one time),

I remember, on another thread, when you were lamenting the building of housing on what used to be boatyards and questioning why this should happen in a "national park"?

So look upon this latest eyesore, and weep!

[bucket]

4 hours ago, Vaughan said:

God, what have they done to Porter and Haylett's boatyard?

The scaffold might give the impression it is new building Vaughan but these houses have been there for decades. 

[dom]

6 hours ago, MauriceMynah said:

Well,  I've read this whole thread several times and have to say I'm disappointed with some of the comments made. I wonder at those who have said they don't want to see liveaboards hogging wild moorings or to see them overstaying 24 hr moorings. They've got to be somewhere.

Nothing I've said is in any way aimed at, or intended to offend you MM. Hopefully you're adhering to the rules wherever possible, I doubt you've ever painted swastikas all over your boat or made death threats, hopefully you don't steal and any involvement in drugs doesn't extend beyond what's likely to be legalised in the near future.

I do have a bit of a grievance with the statement that "they''ve got to be somewhere". If they're there by choice, they should be self sustaining and playing by the rules wherever possible. If they're not there by choice, that's the bit which really annoys me. Don't capitulate to the pressure to just go away and buy a boat as a supposed solution. Go and sit on the DWP's doorstep until you get housed properly. The DWP are obligated to support anyone with less than £16k in assets. If you have more than £16k, the rules say you have to use that to support yourself until it's no longer the case. I don't like the fact, as it doesn't take into account age and that the money might be set aside for retirement, but that's the rules.

My main issue is with the one individual in this case, who I suspect may have fled issues on his home patch (which is obviously the opposite end of the island) and seems to be leaving a trail of junk and destruction in his path. It now seems to be escalating into unlawful encampment on, and damage to our precious Broadland environment. If he's going to start a squat, go do it on a bit of brownfield site somewhere, not a unique and irreplaceable natural habitat.

I don't know what he thinks he's going to achieve taking the matter to Crown Court. Seems like all it'll result in is more adverse publicity, a full list of charges appearing in the public domain and quite possibly harsher sentencing.

[dom]

44 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

So look upon this latest eyesore, and weep!

All of the housing along that side is really the bit I find most offensive, as it has ruined the outlook from the staithe and Kings Head area - which make up a sizeable chunk of the publicly accessible space in Hoveton. It never should have been allowed and particularly not to the height that it is. As bucket says though, the image quality isn't great and the scaffolding is deceptive, making it look like newer development up towards the railway bridge. It's actually just maintenance on an established property.

The whole area needs Hoveton Parish Council, sorry Hoveton Community Council  to step up and decide a proper plan for its future. BA are responsible for the riverside park, but are pleading poverty regarding their obligations to maintain the area, the Three Horseshoes site needs a long term solution and P&H's yard is just running to ruin. It needs a clear vision so planning follows suit but they seem more wrapped up in petty squabbles than anything of late. It also doesn't help that they employed a Parish Warden to tackle some of the lesser issues, but the person concerned went off long term sick within months of employment.

[floydraser]

9 hours ago, MauriceMynah said:

 

I read the comment along the lines of... "living on a boat is always a choice". Are you sure about that? I hadn't realised you were so knowledgeable about my circumstances or those of some of the other liveaboards. 

MM it's hard to oppose the views of such a well respected member of the forum but.. There's always a but isn't there?

Back in July you said you didn't know what all your options were, nor did Citizen's Advice. So maybe you had choices you didn't know about, like a residential caravan. But then you've loved the Broads since you were 11 so maybe it was always going to be that way. 

As Dom says it's up the DWP to sort out individual circumstances and advise on options. If anyone has actually been forced to live on a boat against their will I would love to hear about it. The resulting article in the News of the World would probably make enough cash to buy a house!

I think we all agree that there are those who seek attention by rebelling against authority and conformity, and the invention of social media just adds fuel to their flame.

Certain phrases trigger different reactions but for me it was "the simple answer is".

I'm impressed with the references to navigation in another thread; I am now scared to venture out in case I get lost on Surlingham Broad.  We also have the benefit of a fountain of knowledge on all boat mechanicals and systems. Flooding, the bure Hump etc.. yep, impressive. But when it comes to poverty and being on benefits let's try and keep it humble shall we? Or do I have to explain what it's like to be pregnant?

MM. You also said in "Being nice" there isn't a member of this forum you wouldn't buy a drink for. I hope that's still the case? I would look forward to it. 

[MargeandParge]

None of us should litter and put our endangered wildlife at risk. They don't know, using toxic detritus for making their homes and eating rubbish that their bodies should never have to deal with. Everyone in the world should dispose of their litter responsibly. 

Kindest Regards Marge and Parge 

[MauriceMynah]

1 hour ago, floydraser said:

MM. You also said in "Being nice" there isn't a member of this forum you wouldn't buy a drink for. I hope that's still the case? I would look forward to it. 

Certainly still true to all members here, and much more fun chatting to people one disagrees with.

To reply to an earlier point, perhaps with the exception of prison, I don’t think anyone is actually forced into  any form of accommodation against their will. Yes I could be arguing on different forums about living in caravans, motor homes Ford transits or mud huts in Antarctica, anywhere that's away from the norm. 

[BroadAmbition]

@BroadAmbitionyou ask what help you can give. I remember giving a member here a doggy life jacket I no longer needed. I left it in the aft well of B Ambition.  Perhaps when you are renewing your ropes you might find a home for the old ones. That's the sort of help I was thinking of.

We have always done that where practicable.  Our last set of ropes were donated to a fellow boat owner he is still using them.  Our first solar panel was donated to Mike on Chameleon - it's still onboard.  Our first mast was donated to another boat owner - Its still being used. The recently removed horns if they can be repaired will also be donated.  The 'Current' complement of batteries are being sold to a fellow forumite at less value than we could get at a scrappers.

Years ago a young lad on the forum (May have been the nbf) that was trying to do up a small boat on a budget - I paid for, spliced and provided foc a full set of mooring ropes for him

When the forum got together to help out our past chairman, I couldn't make it so instead along with Robin we filled the diesel tank

I try to give my time and advice freely as and when I can do so

The list goes on and on

I'll be stuffed if I'm giving gear away to those that have no respect for our environment or other river users when I can help my mates out -

Guilty as charged your honour

That's just my nature, one I'm quite at ease with

Griff