Sutton Protest.

[Mouldy]

11 minutes ago, YnysMon said:

I’ve been reflecting. (Probably a bad idea.) I was mulling over why there was relatively little homelessness in the 70s, even though as a country generally we were far less affluent. I have an idea that a lot more people who ‘couldn’t cope’, i.e. who had poor mental health, were institutionalised. Then in the 1980s there was a ‘care in the community’ initiative. (Was that under Maggie, or later?) Whilst it was in theory commendable (who wants to be institutionalised), in practice it turned out to be very little care or none.

If the mods think this is too political please delete. It isn’t intended to be, as I have no idea which government instigated the policy and no successive government has overturned it. Also, the policy was intended as a step forward. 

In my opinion, the biggest issue was the cash accumulated by house sales through the ‘Right to Buy’ initiative was not reinvested in social housing.  Sadly, private rental is expensive, far too expensive for many and housing associations are not charities.

There have been and will continue to be people who cannot afford to buy a property and with rents so high, they’ll never be able to save a deposit.  Affordable housing is needed, as is social housing, but all developers seem to want to build are increasingly expensive ‘executive’ housing, far beyond the reach of many.

[Gracie]

I have no problem with live a boards. As has already been pointed out, some are living this way of life because they can't afford to live in a house with a nice car, a decent job, things most of us take for granted 

The one's that take advantage, who treat moorings and others with disrespect, using foul language at Rangers, other river users etc are the one's that shouldn't be allowed to get away with such behaviour and give genuine live a boards a bad reputation

Grace x

[dom]

25 minutes ago, YnysMon said:

I’ve been reflecting. (Probably a bad idea.) I was mulling over why there was relatively little homelessness in the 70s, even though as a country generally we were far less affluent. I have an idea that a lot more people who ‘couldn’t cope’, i.e. who had poor mental health, were institutionalised.

I think that's probably a very valid comment.

I suspect another key factor was also that there was far more low skill manual work available in farming and manufacturing. Someone with little education or mild mental health issues could get a farm job, often with a tied cottage and live a happy and quiet life.

There was also a lot more derelict property available. When I was a kid, we lived on Park Road in Wroxham. In the 70s, a chap lived opposite in what was effectively a scrap yard. I think it might have been an old tin Methodist church or something similar which had all but collapsed. I'm pretty sure he didn't own it and was squatting there quite happily. It has since had two fairly large detached houses built on it.

Around the same time, an ex partner of mine was living with her mother in a commune in Crow Hall in Downham Market - now all cleared and modernised.

Then there was Argyle Street in Norwich from the late 70s into the 80s - apparently Britain's largest and longest running squat. We used to drink in the Kingsway nearby towards the end of that time, as it used to be fun watching some of the characters who came in.

[CambridgeCabby]

The simple answer is that the population is growing quicker than available properties , people are living longer the family unit is different , children tend to fly the nest earlier it is now unusual for three generations to live under one roof ; all of these have attributed to housing shortage if you add to that the net growth of population due to high immigration as the world keeps shrinking , then lack of accommodation is inevitable .

Since the 70’s we have seen the world change dramatically the collapse of the former USSR saw huge movements of people in Western Europe , The U.K. is now very much a nation of many nations , and IMHO it’s what make this country still GREAT Britain .

 

[Turnoar]

27 minutes ago, YnysMon said:

I’ve been reflecting. (Probably a bad idea.) I was mulling over why there was relatively little homelessness in the 70s, even though as a country generally we were far less affluent. I have an idea that a lot more people who ‘couldn’t cope’, i.e. who had poor mental health, were institutionalised. Then in the 1980s there was a ‘care in the community’ initiative. (Was that under Maggie, or later?) Whilst it was in theory commendable (who wants to be institutionalised), in practice it turned out to be very little care or none.

If the mods think this is too political please delete. It isn’t intended to be, as I have no idea which government instigated the policy and no successive government has overturned it. Also, the policy was intended as a step forward. 

I think care in the community came a bit later in the 90s. I have friends who worked in the institutions, young and poorly paid, and I hazard a guess that citc was just a further money saver. I was researching something recently and it was heartening to read that not only were the hospitals good for those in their care but also the community around it who were employed and cooked, cleaned, maintained, educated etc. and really mourned their closing. Those in care were able to do their bit too be it working on the local farmland or playing for the cricket team on a Sunday with the rest of the village.

A decade later when I was living at Thorpe Green I met some liveaboards who were great to socialise with and upbeat albeit their floating homes did leak. Very different from those I’d met years before for whom it was a luxurious lifestyle choice and very enviable. Contrast what’s being reported in this thread and seems to me things have regressed.

 

[dom]

41 minutes ago, Turnoar said:

I think care in the community came a bit later in the 90s.

Reading that triggered an old memory from around that time which I'd all but forgotten. Me and a few mates had been out clubbing in Norwich (I suspect probably Henry's on Rose Lane). I got talking to a stunning girl and we offered her a lift home. She was very vague about where she lived and only gave directions as we approached each junction. Turned out that "home" was actually the old mental hospital at Little Plumstead. As she got out of the car, she revealed the fact she'd been committed for stabbing her boyfriend and had slipped out for the evening

[BroadAmbition]

I'm quite happy with Liveaboards around the system as long as they are paying their way like the rest of us do.

I'm tolerant (But only just) of those liveaboards that are not paying their way as goodness knows how they have ended up struggling along just to live.  If they choose that lifestyle - Then no sympathy from me

What I am most definitely not tolerant of is when they hog wild moorings and make such a damned mess and eyesores for all to see without seemingly a care in the world for their surroundings.   Those wild moorings should be available to all river users to share, especially those that are contributing into the system.  When liveaboards hog maintained moorings, especially those with electric, then I have no tolerance for them at all.  However when out of season and the moorings are quiet then I don't get as incensed 

Griff

[floydraser]

When I was on benefits in 1982 "mental health issues" hadn't been invented! I was made redundant with a mortgage and two kids but it was all my fault, the benefits officer told me so from behind his glass screen. The screen was nothing to do with Covid, that hadn't been invented either, it was so that you could be taunted about your situation. I remember trying move the chair I was sat on but it was bolted down so that interviewees couldn't smash it through the glass. 

Of the many job interviews I went for I remember the boss of one firm saying, "All these unemployed! I know how long it takes to get another job, 5 minutes!" Yep, I guess it's all so easy from the other side isn't it.

Where ever we live we should have a responsibility to look after our bit of the scenery on behalf of everyone else. I'm pleased to say that if you looked down our street you wouldn't be able to pick out our house for being any better or worse in appearance than any of the others, because we keep it that way. Not far away is a house that until a few weeks ago had an upstairs outer window sill hanging at an angle from one end. All the windows and doors were old and wood. Gardens all overgrown, a real tip. But there's often a car in the drive because someone lives there and it's been like it for 30+ years.

But you don't normally walk round a housing estate as part of a holiday. Scruffy liveaboards tend to group together and get noticed more because they are where people take holidays.

Living on a boat is always a choice.

No one would ever be offered a liveaboard as the only choice against homelessness.

There must be reason why housing associations who buy properties to rent to those on benefits, don't buy boats. For one thing, as a landlord, who is going to insure you against someone falling overboard? It would always be claimed to be your negligence; at this time, you get blamed for mold which people don't seem to able to clean off.

I used to work with well paid HGV drivers who chose to live in residential caravans because it was cheap. They just had to move out for one month a year.

[YnysMon]

The early 80s weren’t great for getting a job were they, especially if you lived in the town that had been badged the most depressed place in the UK (Holyhead). It was official. Cilla Black organised a parade through the town to cheer us all up and it was on the telly! I didn’t go, and didn’t watch it on telly…I was probably nurturing a female version of Victor Meldrew even then, or perhaps it was because I am not a big fan of bells and whistles that don’t actually make any ha’porth of difference. 

Guess why we moved to Milton Keynes.

Actually, it was like a breath of fresh air. I had always vowed that I would hate to live in a city. I love Milton Keynes though. 

[rightsaidfred]

While not everyone has a choice of where they live we all have a choice of how we live, back when I grew up in the 1940/50s housing was very much an issue with family's living in one or two rooms, there were none of the support systems in place today just family and neighbours, we had nothing but took care of what we did have and even more respected others and our neighborhood's.

Homelessness as always been an issue and yes there are still those who can't get the help they need, there are also many who you can't help or won't be helped, sadly respect for society and those around us has been in decline for many years alongside the increase in drink and drug abuse, it is not just the Broads this is impacting, my local river is overrun with hundreds of boats monopolising large stretches of bankside with the subsequent problems this causes, the majority are probably decent people who try to be responsible but the growing minority of irresponsible ones are causing major problems for everyone and the environment around them.

Fred

[PaulN]

19 hours ago, kpnut said:

I don’t often get involved with discussion about ‘liveaboard’ boats, as I have a hankering to be one myself and I fully realise there are so many issues, both financial, practical and psychological surrounding the issue. 

But today I went up the Ant and to Sutton staithe. And felt cross.
The Ant now has either 8 or 9 wild moorings taken up with boats that seem to go nowhere. (As a comparison, I think it was about 3 last summer season). 

In fact, there are now various structures built on the banks. I have a feeling quite a number of the boats are owned by just one person, but might be wrong.

In my book, taking up space like that and making it your home, building things, leaving junk on the bank etc is not on at all. 

So that’s that number of moorings fewer for everyone else. I realise they are not BA moorings, so not part of our tolls, but it really does no good to the general feel of the area, especially for holidaymakers whom we all want to return to the benefit of the future of the Broads. 

I don’t know the answer other than to

1. provide proper facilities for those who would actually prefer it

2. enforce the legislation - tolls, insurance, BSS- have it - you can stay but please move around to give everyone a chance to use the environs, - don’t have it - you can’t keep a boat on the Broads. But then what can the BA do to enforce people who refuse to abide by the rules? 

Then on the way up to Sutton staithe, there’s a group of three more on the right and one on the left as the moorings start, none of which have moved for ages. I fully agree with Gracie that Sutton staithe is just not inviting at all. I hate going up there and if weren’t for a good boatyard with fair prices at the top I’d never venture up. 
I also visited Thorpe green in February and thought it was extremely uninviting. 

It makes me feel very sad. 

All very sad. We use to go to Sutton Staithe regularly but for over a year now it has been a no go area for us and these moorings are supposed to be BA 24 hour moorings for toll payers / holiday makers.

Our costs go up and up and facilities down and down. Don't go to Ranworth anymore due to cost and principle and beyond Wroxham Bridge hasn't been possible this year.

[floydraser]

16 hours ago, YnysMon said:

The early 80s weren’t great for getting a job were they, especially if you lived in the town that had been badged the most depressed place in the UK (Holyhead). It was official. Cilla Black organised a parade through the town to cheer us all up and it was on the telly! I didn’t go, and didn’t watch it on telly…I was probably nurturing a female version of Victor Meldrew even then, or perhaps it was because I am not a big fan of bells and whistles that don’t actually make any ha’porth of difference. 

Guess why we moved to Milton Keynes.

Actually, it was like a breath of fresh air. I had always vowed that I would hate to live in a city. I love Milton Keynes though. 

It was noticable that cities that had riots strangely had increased investment after the dust had settled.... 

[Vaughan]

4 hours ago, PaulN said:

All very sad. We use to go to Sutton Staithe regularly but for over a year now it has been a no go area for us and these moorings are supposed to be BA 24 hour moorings for toll payers / holiday makers.

Our costs go up and up and facilities down and down. Don't go to Ranworth anymore due to cost and principle and beyond Wroxham Bridge hasn't been possible this year.

I very much hope that @BroadsAuthority are reading this thread carefully.

Their continued resistance - and legal persecution - of "residential moorings" - that is to say a private, paid, off-river mooring where you can live in peace on your boat - has, sure enough, led to this situation.

They spent an almost 6-figure sum in legal fees to evict "live-aboards" from Jenners Basin, whilst labelling them as "feral people" and this is the result.  Where else are these folk supposed to go?

I am not saying the BA are at the root cause of this problem but they have just aggravated it, by their intransigent position with regard to "house boats".

They need to address this problem seriously and work with it.  Otherwise, they will continue to appear pathetically toothless about issues which really matter.

 

[Happy]

We are hiring a boat in May from Stalham and Sutton was my choice to stay on the last night before returning the boat on Monday morning but I am now thinking of retuning to the boatyard on the last night and going to the Swan by car.  A better move perhaps? 

[Mouldy]

11 minutes ago, Happy said:

We are hiring a boat in May from Stalham and Sutton was my choice to stay on the last night before returning the boat on Monday morning but I am now thinking of retuning to the boatyard on the last night and going to the Swan by car.  A better move perhaps? 

Ludham Bridge and a visit to The Dog or Neatishead (or Gayes Staithe) and The White Horse would be my choices.  I used to hate the last night in the boatyard, when we were hiring.

[catcouk]

38 minutes ago, Happy said:

We are hiring a boat in May from Stalham and Sutton was my choice to stay on the last night before returning the boat on Monday morning but I am now thinking of retuning to the boatyard on the last night and going to the Swan by car.  A better move perhaps? 

We stayed on the BA moorings at Wayford Bridge for our last night last year. It wasn't my first choice but was surprisingly lovely. Does the Wayford Bridge Hotel and Restaurant serve drinks?

[dom]

3 hours ago, Vaughan said:

I am not saying the BA are at the root cause of this problem but they have just aggravated it, by their intransigent position with regard to "house boats".

Meanwhile, they've allowed the subject of this thread to register a cruiser as a houseboat, seemingly because it's in a poor state of repair and lacks an engine - and despite the fact it moves regularly.

I'm not sure if it's still around but, if so, it may well be one of the eyesores up the Ant on a wild mooring which was mentioned earlier in this thread. It has also spent time blocking valuable space on public BA moorings in the past.

[Graham47]

1 hour ago, catcouk said:

We stayed on the BA moorings at Wayford Bridge for our last night last year. It wasn't my first choice but was surprisingly lovely. Does the Wayford Bridge Hotel and Restaurant serve drinks?

Yes the Wayford Bribge is open to Non Residents. Plenty of outside seating available. I stay there occasionally and can highly recommended it.

 

[Graham47]

There is a new webcam now which views upstream from  Wroxham Bridge to the B A 24 hr moorings. Despite being 24 hour moorings there seems to be boats moored there in excess of 24 hrs on a regular basis. The Rangers pull in there regularly but it doesn’t seem to alter the situation.

e 

[MauriceMynah]

Well,  I've read this whole thread several times and have to say I'm disappointed with some of the comments made. I wonder at those who have said they don't want to see liveaboards hogging wild moorings or to see them overstaying 24 hr moorings. They've got to be somewhere.

I read the comment along the lines of... "living on a boat is always a choice". Are you sure about that? I hadn't realised you were so knowledgeable about my circumstances or those of some of the other liveaboards.  Of those boats  moored on the right just as you come into Sutton Staithe, one of them is a sailing boat that's up for sale but hasn't got a mooring yet. The liveaboards there are keeping an eye on it for the owner. Another has just managed to get full time employment and is trying to get a base mooring, not easy as many yards won't take liveaboards. In fact only one of the craft at Sutton is lived on by someone who will not be helped.

No. The fellow about whom this thread is about is one of very few who cause a problem and who plays the BA for fools.

I suppose that when homelessness was looming, I could have tried to get housing through the council but as the citizens advice fellow told me, as I own 50% of a house, they wouldn't be able to do much for me, and my share of the rent pays for my moorings etc. Sadly not enough for renting a flat though.

I've not read anywhere in this thread anything suggesting that liveaboards are people trying to stand on their own two feet rather than be a burden to the tax payer. 

Finally has anyone heard about low income houses having to make the choice "heat or eat" ?  Yes it is cheaper living on a boat, and yes most of us can do both eat and heat, but some are still struggling.

I am conscious that some contributers to this thread recognise that not all liveaboards are drug crazy layabout criminals, and that you have some sympathy for those trying to live on vessels rather too small for the task. But has anyone tried to offer any help?

[grendel]

I quite agree with you MM, the problem is those that are too belligerent to get along with folk, the ones that will break the  rules (ie not pay tolls insurance, overstaying on moorings etc)- then claim it is being done as a protest in the misunderstood impression that this makes breaking the rules an ok thing to do and avoids the need to follow the rules. 

these types are not confined to the broads, or even to any other waterway, they are generally everywhere, living in vans- squats etc. 

these are the people who get all others living the same lifestyle a bad name.

There are others who also cant afford to stay within the rules, yet talk to the authorities and come to an arrangement to avoid paying tolls (or an arrangement to pay what can be afforded) and live in harmony with the authorities and their neighbours, whose circumstances can be extremely dire, yet they try and exist within the rules. these are the ones that the belligerent one are harming by giving the impression that all such people are the same in their belligerence.

I live next door to one of the local homeless half way houses, where the local homeless can get a step up to a decent lifestyle- where they get an address- this gives them the ability to apply for jobs and all the services to which they are entitled. yes there are the few that will just drink any income they make, but generally you can talk to them, and they are generally decent people who have fallen on hard times, well worth the time to sit and talk to as some have interesting backgrounds, and on the whole all they ask is the chance to reintegrate back into society.

[kpnut]

7 hours ago, Graham47 said:

There is a new webcam now which views upstream from  Wroxham Bridge to the B A 24 hr moorings.

Is it possible to post a link? I’ve hunted on the internet but can’t find it. 
It always useful to know space availability when cruising nearby, not that it’s relevant at the moment with the bridge virtually unpassable. 

[Gracie]

11 hours ago, Happy said:

We are hiring a boat in May from Stalham and Sutton was my choice to stay on the last night before returning the boat on Monday morning but I am now thinking of retuning to the boatyard on the last night and going to the Swan by car.  A better move perhaps? 

 

8 hours ago, Graham47 said:

Yes the Wayford Bribge is open to Non Residents. Plenty of outside seating available. I stay there occasionally and can highly recommended it.

 

Hi Alan, I totally agree with Graham, such a lovely pub, you can have a meal and a few drinks on your last night. You won't be disappointed 

Just to get back on track, a brilliant post from MM.

I do hope the Broads Authority are reading this. I would just like to say that labelling people "Feral" is disgusting. Even the subject of this thread is not feral, just foul mouthed

Grace x

[kpnut]

MM, I’m sorry if I have caused offence with my post. I did say I don’t often comment as I agree with what you say that we don’t know peoples circumstances and I’d rather see folk with a roof over their head than on a street. 

I do stand by my comments though, about building structures and cluttering the bank with junk. Of course, continuous cruisers will moor up on wild moorings, but moving on and around to give everyone fair shares is just courtesy. 
I just wish the BA/councils would recognise the problem better and provide adequate facilities which I’m sure would be appreciated by the vast majority. It is certainly becoming an ever more obvious and pressing situation on the river Ant. 
 

[bucket]

10 hours ago, Happy said:

We are hiring a boat in May from Stalham and Sutton was my choice to stay on the last night before returning the boat on Monday morning but I am now thinking of retuning to the boatyard on the last night and going to the Swan by car.  A better move perhaps? 

We love Sutton Staithe. Such a peaceful place to moor and the pub is worth a visit too. We moored there 3 times last year, twice on the green next to "live aboards".  Ok, so the boats may look a bit battered and bruised but those on board have always been pleasant enough.....no problems encountered whatsoever.

Overstaying at moorings, particularly on the electric posts is an issue that needs better management but I suspect this is a handful, not all, and both times we moored on the green we got plugged in.

The Wayford Bridge Hotel is excellent. We have stayed, eaten and drank there and I certainly recommend, but don't let a few accounts of how awful Sutton Staithe has become put you off going.....it isn't awful at all.