Running Engines Shock Warning Following Tragedy.

[Viking23]

4 hours ago, grendel said:

for those that complained of the lack of electricity posts, and why could they not install more along a mooring. At the rates we are charged for trenchwork and cost of cable installation, I worked it out at approximately £2000 per boat length along a mooring, now, the landowner can probably dig a trench cheaper, but this is to the depths and safety constraints of a proper electrical feeder installation. No wonder the posts are not run the whole length of a mooring.

We also need to consider loading, not all 16Amp sockets will be taking the full load, and clearly not the 32Amp ones, however, if you double the number of sockets at one location, you will most certainly have to increase the size of the Armoured cable supplying it, and maybe the substation or supply network. 

Sometimes we only need less than 2 amps, for battery charging. lol, but if we all used 3kW heaters (13A) , and maybe a kettle, or microwave, then most electric post installations may be in trouble.

 

 

[ZimbiIV]

JM, maybe those flappy things should be converted to generate electricity as do wind turbines.

paul

[grendel]

That would be a better option, wind turbines on moorings - you could even use all those old wind pumps.

[Vaughan]

While you lot have been wandering off the thread - again - I have been looking up some figures about exhaust emissions, and I find them interesting.

Please note, when I talk about "air" that the air we breathe contains less than 20% oxygen at sea level. About 18% on average.

A naturally aspirated (non turbo) diesel engine in neutral on tick-over is running at a ratio of about 75 : 1 air to diesel. This is because the cylinders are still drawing in their full volume of air, but the injector pump is only metering a small amount of fuel, so the exhaust gases will still contain around 17% oxygen, not used in the combustion.

Most of the emission is nitrogen which is an inert gas and doesn't take part in the combustion process. It just comes in one end and goes straight out the other, much like my wife's reaction to eating shellfish.

Other elements present are CO2 - 5-7%, water vapour - 4%, various "particulates", and CO - 0.01% or less. As there is so much "spare" oxygen in the exhaust there is no risk of some of the CO2 emissions becoming CO, due to a restriction of the intake air. It would therefore seem that a diesel running in neutral on the quay to charge batteries does not present a significant risk of CO in any quantity, entering the cabin of a boat, whether your own, or the boat next door.

                                                    HOWEVER.

I was more interested to find out the exhaust emissions from a Webasto type blown-air diesel heater and here, the figures cause rather more concern. These are not an engine; they are a burner, and you can think of them as a kind of diesel blow-lamp. Their combustion is more "efficient" as they are running at a ratio of around 15 : 1 air to diesel and therefore their exhaust will only contain about 1% oxygen. This means that a restriction in their combustion air intake, such as a kink in the pipe, or maybe mud from a river bank mooring entering the hull fitting, could cause some of what should be CO2 being released as CO. So if they are running in a confined space between the bank and the boat, or between two moored boats and there is no wind, it is very possible that excess CO emissions could enter a boat's hull vents from this source.

The old "Air Top" heaters have a combustion air intake pipe but this does not go out to the hull. They are installed in a cupboard or locker which has its own hull vent and the locker is supposed to be tight enough that it is sealed off from the living space in the boat. Fine if properly installed and maintained but what if the hull vent has been in a collision with the bank and its louvres have been flattened against the hull? How often have we seen this? The heater is therefore starved of intake air and will produce abnormal quantities of CO.

Modern heaters are "room sealed" and their intake air comes from a pipe on the outside of the exhaust pipe, so that both go out to a hull skin fitting, much the same as the exhaust that you can see on the wall of your house, coming from your central heating boiler.

So the exhaust is blown straight out to atmosphere while the combustion air enters from around the sides of the fitting. But what if this is in a confined space, between moored boats or up against the bank? The exhaust, as we have seen, contains almost no oxygen, so what if the heater starts breathing its own exhaust, down the air intake pipe? Surely this would be a suffocation of the intake air, and a production of excessive amounts of CO?

I have tried hard to find details of the actual exhaust emissions from these heaters but have not been able to do so. It seems there is a reluctance to publish them in brochures or technical specifications. Perhaps this, in itself, is cause for concern?

The time may be ripe for actual field trials of these heaters on moorings, by the authorities, or simply by interested amateurs, using CO detectors.

[Viking23]

Hi Vaughan, a good report that shows the potential dangers of third party poisoning.

The problem that the BSS and Broads Authourity have is proving that this could or is a risk. Waiting for a death would help prove it, but let's not wait for that, as I have suggested and what both the BSS and BA need is evidence of third party exposure to CO, this can be as simply reporting CO alarms going off when exposed to third party CO, so if you have been affected, contact both the BSS and BA, and it would be nice to see any progress on here too, nice to see that our campaign is working.

Thanks to all forum members for some great discussions, it looks like we are all singing from the same song sheet, but it did surprise me that on a well maintained modern diesel engine that the CO levels are very low.

Now if we look at Broads cruiser diesel engines, some are very old and many not well maintained either, so their CO values will be much higher than a modern unit. Add to this an old air filter that cannot pass enough air, and you then have incomplete combustion, so more CO.

Another example of incomplete combustion, is over fuelling ie thick black smoke, again not enough air for complete combustion, hence more CO.

Some of the Broads engines have their yearly or twice yearly oil change, maybe a new filter every few oil changes, maybe a new air filter every 5 years, how many have emissions checks that could lead to injector replacement or injector cleaning, well none on that one I guess.

So how can anyone predict how much CO a boat engine will produce in this environment?

Could the next stage be yearly emission testing on boat engines? Forget I said that lol...

[Vaughan]

Viking I "like" your post because I respect how seriously you regard this problem but there are a couple of things to discuss.

Broads boat engines don't have air filters! They have an air "cleaner" to stop bugs flying in but as they are enclosed in the engine space they don't need more than that. They are not road vehicles and so are not subject to everything that the outside air is throwing at them.

Blue smoke, black smoke or white smoke? we need a research chemist to tell us whether any of these produce more CO than usual, but personally I doubt it because, as I said, a diesel exhaust has lots of "spare" oxygen in it, when running at light loads, at low speed.

[MauriceMynah]

Hmmm, I'm likely to make myself a bit unpoipular here but things have been said that I really must protest at.

2 hours ago, Vaughan said:

The time may be ripe for actual field trials of these heaters on moorings, by the authorities, or simply by interested amateurs, using CO detectors.

Or... hows about establishing the level of risk there actually is? Out of the total number of boating CO poisonings, how many have been as a result of "third party" sources of CO. The organisations who would best know, or rather would measure the probability of risk are the insurance companies. These people are professional in this very field, have a financial interest in the results and are experienced in risk assessment. The BA is not, and certainly not amateurs who's CO alarms go off because thew boat next door boiled a kettle.

 

1 hour ago, Viking23 said:

The problem that the BSS and Broads Authourity have is proving that this could or is a risk. Waiting for a death would help prove it, but let's not wait for that,

Sorry but no! we should wait for not one but a number of deaths before handing the whole shooting match over to the nanny state to regulate the hides off us.  If people do not accept that people the world over have what is known as "The acceptable level of death" they haven't looked at speed limits on the roads, and what they actually mean.

Excluding idiots who block ventalation points, bring lit barbies indoors  or even place generators in cabins, we need to find out how many people have been killed by CO through absolutely no fault of their own, and balance that number against the number of people who have survived a boating holiday in the same period. Water is dangerous. Boating on it, more so. We each have to do our own risk assessments. If you don't like the risk levels then don't do it, fine, but don't ask the BA to ban something or create pen pushing legislation on a subject they understand little about.

 

1 hour ago, Vaughan said:

Blue smoke, black smoke or white smoke? we need a research chemist to tell us whether any of these produce more CO than usual,

No, you need an expert diesel engineer to tell you what smoke/vapour is which!

 

 

 

[Vaughan]

Sorry but I haven't finished my "thesis" yet. Here is the second instalment . . . .

Most Broads motor cruisers have a 2 litre diesel engine. The Otto Cycle means that each cylinder will draw in its full volume of air every 2 revolutions of the engine. At 2000 RPM this means the engine is drawing in 2000 litres of air every minute. No wonder engine compartments are ventilated and no wonder marine engineers regard the engine as the best fume extractor in the boat.

I have read in two places that a diesel, under load, will give off 1000 parts per million (PPM) of CO. They don't specify in what volume or over what space of time, so this information is not much use, except when you compare it with the figure they give for a petrol engine under load. They quote 15,000PPM up to 100,000PPM when running fast.

So if your CO detector is going off when close to a petrol outboard motor, this may be why? This may also be why, in their reply to Viking's letter, the BA seem interested in incidents involving petrol engines? This may also be why the Americans insist on catalytic converters on petrol cars? But marine petrol engines, especially mounted on a Z drive, don't have these.

So finally, let's go back to the tragic accident near Wroxham this year - the subject of this thread - and let's look at it in light of these figures.

A 5.7 litre petrol engine at 3000 RPM will be pushing out 8,550 litres a minute of exhaust gases, through a Z drive, which brings them to the surface directly under the stern of the boat, and these gases contain potentially 100 times more CO than a diesel. If any significant amount of this huge exhaust had entered the (unventilated) cabin of the boat at that level of CO contamination, I have read that it had the potential to kill in about 3 minutes.

This accident was indeed tragic but personally, I cannot see that we can relate this to the normal running of a Broads motor cruiser.

[riyadhcrew]

This discussion is all what the NBN Forum is about - BOATING - and the safety of doing it. It is obvious from the posts, that members have done considerable investigations into the facts and that has to be COMMENDED. I, for one, am following this thread, with the view of taking on board all that is said and recommended. 

[JennyMorgan]

I wonder if cover makers need to look at this topic. Maybe I'm wrong but British motor boaters do seem to have an obsession with gaining an extra cabin by smothering their cockpits with covers. What I don't think I'm wrong about is that the majority of private boats keep their covers up whilst under way for whatever reason. It would seem that in the case of the casualty the cover trapped the pollutant. Just a thought.

[riyadhcrew]

JM, you might well have a valid point here and this is what, with the help of all our experienced members, might be able to throw a light on the subject. I am no expert on combustion engines, or exhaust emissions, but I am sure there is enough expertise and experience on this forum that might help everyone be pointed in the correct direction. Saving one life is as good as saving a hundred.

[ChrisB]

You have a very valid point Peter. I unfortunately can no longer grip the tiller or hold the main sheet for any decent length of time and my wife has very serious health issues so we have a small cabin cruiser. However maybe it is coming from sail but if it is not raining the canopy is always down but we see folks who never ever put it down, maybe just the side panels out. 

A sailing cruiser with a traditional companion way must be inherently safer than rear cockpit motor cruiser with canopy up.

[BroadAmbition]

Broads boat engines don't have air filters! They have an air "cleaner"

You could be correct but not in our case.  Our Beta Marine was installed brand new in 2007 (By me of course) and has been maintained to the manufactures specifications but probably better as I have done all the minor and major services mysen, and will continue to do so.

It is a 50hp 2:2Ltr naturally aspirated unit.  Today after 2'500 Hrs approx it is cleaner on the inside than it is on the outside. Macie's dog hairs are responsible for that.

The air filter is of the standard paper element type, exactly the same material as used in most road going vehicles (In a past life I have changed thousands of em) in an effort to improve efficiency I substituted the air filter for a high performance K&N unit - which worked fine but the induction roar under the deck was too intrusive so changed it back pretty pronto.  We administer 'Soltron' every time we re-fuel religiously, primarily to keep the dreaded diesel bug at bay, the added bonus of Soltron it makes diesel burn more efficiently / cleaner, as it does with the Mikuni heating system too.  Both the engine and gearbox have been treated with 'ZX1' which eliminates friction thereby again improving efficiency.  So I would arguably make a point that our Beta is about as clean with regards to emissions as a modern Broads diesel engine can be.  Having said that it is still burning dyno fuel all the same (With nowadays much reduced sulphur content)

In the future Broads boats will all be using modern 'Clean' diesel engines due to natural wastage / ageing of units designed in the 40's.  The emissions from 'B.A' are not intrusive but then the exhaust is out of the transom away form the communal area and cabins. (And smell way better than me after a night on the ale)

We have two gas monitors onboard that also double up as fire / smoke detectors, situated in the fwd and aft passageways. They are of the type that if the batteries go low they start an annoying beeping. They are fitted with 'Test' buttons.  We know the aft one works fine, coz if we leave the galley to aft passageway door open when doing a full English / toast it goes off regular - most annoying resulting in a crew member frantically waving a tea towel at it to shut it up!  This is a proven scientifically way of silencing the alarm.

Griff

[JennyMorgan]

4 hours ago, ChrisB said:

You have a very valid point Peter. I unfortunately can no longer grip the tiller or hold the main sheet for any decent length of time and my wife has very serious health issues so we have a small cabin cruiser. However maybe it is coming from sail but if it is not raining the canopy is always down but we see folks who never ever put it down, maybe just the side panels out. 

A sailing cruiser with a traditional companion way must be inherently safer than rear cockpit motor cruiser with canopy up.

Thanks for that, Chris. I never fail to be amazed when, on the nicest day possible, I see pallid faces peering  out from the dark, canvas cavern on the stern of a passing cruiser. 

[ChrisB]

The other advantage is the much reduced windage makes a small, light, shallow draft motor cruiser much easier to handle at slow speed and around moorings also hopping on and off easier.

[Viking23]

On the canals we saw many narrow beamed dawncraft, a feature of this design is the petrol outboard engine is enclosed within the hull of the cruiser, protecting the engine from damage and theft, some potential frost damage maybe  and would make stern mooring a doddle, and these are also seen on the Norfolk Broads.

An issue with this set up, is that the engine is sitting in it's own warm plume of CO gas, within the hull, some of this could easily escape into the rear cockpit, or in the case of a rear cabin cruiser, put anyone sitting or playing in the rear cabin at great risk. There is easy access to the engine from inside, so certainly not gas tight. Sometimes the cut out in the stern was so small, it just allowed the engine to tilt. there was sometimes an aluminium vent towards the top, but this was often crushed after contact with lock gates or from other boats sharing locks.

I searched the internet for a generic type picture with no boat name or registration number to demonstrate the point, there were plenty of others showing the smaller cut out in the stern, some broads registered too.

In my opinion, the crew on these craft are very vulnerable,  more especially with a petrol engine giving out huge quantaties of CO.

Also consider that these engines are working in a reduced oxygen area, so less complete combustion, so even more CO. 

In the past when I have spoken to owners of Dawncrafts, they complain of engines overheating, rough running and often run without their engine cover, some run with the rear seat removed more especially if running at some pace. A potential disaster, a case for a rear cockpit dawncraft to have a CO alarm near the helm, or rear seat, in addition to one in each cabin.

 

 

 

[MauriceMynah]

1 hour ago, ChrisB said:

The other advantage is the much reduced windage makes a small, light, shallow draft motor cruiser much easier to handle at slow speed and around moorings also hopping on and off easier.

Which makes me wonder if there may be other reasons why someone might choose to go along with their conopy up. Still, I have to agree, exercising their right to choose how to cruise is no excuse for acting in a manner to which I disapprove.

[Springsong]

Talking of canopies I do smell the old hot diesel from our Parsons Pike a 2.7 litre four cylinder ford D type from the fifties. We have a Hylyard type water silencer under one of the aft saloon bunks. The canopy we often don't have down simply because it takes two reasonably agile crew to get it down, but both drop sides are nearly always down to allow a good flow of air. Our trip to Beccles next week I have the luxury of two crew so the canopy will be down unless it is pouring.

On a wooden boat there always seems to be more natural airflow and to add to that our galley hopper windows wont close either, and none of the doors air airtight fits. 

[MauriceMynah]

Oh really, Again I must protest.

My parents were owners of a Dawncraft 22 as described and with the small gap behind the outboard. We sometimes cruisewd with the hard top up and the canopy attached. Whilst I realise that this explains my own death in the mis 70s I have to say that the overall threat is being over exagerated to the Nth degree..

Earlier in this thread it was asked if anyone objected to having a CO alarm on board, I quote...

" Let me ask this question, who, reading this forum would object to having CO alarms fitted to their boats, either private or hire, and made a compulsory item to be tested by BSS? "

Let me answer that question. I DO. Why? Well lets take two statements made on this thread. First from the Boat Safety Scheme.

" No fatalities are recorded whereby the source of CO came from a next-door boat. "

and second, paraphrased from various people replying on this thread...

"The alarm went off from fumes from a nearby craft"

Put those two together and remembering how often we read complaints from members about hire craft running their engines at unsociable hours and you start to get the picture.

Add to that my overwhelming dislike of occasions where the nanny state orders me to do something to protect me from my own choices and you have the basis of my objection.

I have done my own risk assessment and concluded that there is no risk unless I do something stupid.

 

CO is referred as the silent killer No taste and no smell (and ok yes it doesn't make any noise either) BUT exhaust gasses DO SMELL, and engines/heater units DO MAKE A NOISE.. There ARE warning signs.

Of the millions of visitors to the Broads over many years only two (and one dog) have died from CO poisoning where as yet it seems it has not be their own fault. You stand more chance of winning the national lottery jackpot than you do of dying this way.

I have done my risc assessment and find that no action is necessary, so I'll be bloody furious if the BA or the BSS, order me to do otherwise.

 

[ranworthbreeze]

When we are on the boat and cruising we normally have the canopy fully down or the sides rolled up or zipped out if it is raining. With the canopy up it acts almost like a sail makes mooring difficult. 

We do have a CO alarm but this is the choice of our syndicate, we also have procedures such as not having aft cabin windows open when starting the engine or in motion. We also have plenty of ventilation when using the oven or hob.

I do not know what warning notices are on hire boats on the Broads, but on the canals there are notices on the doors regarding the vents that they should not be blocked, also on narrow boats they have many roof vents.

I guess many of us would be temped to block up those those draughts especially that are found on the sliding canopy boats. All I can say is put up with the fresh air.

Regards

Alan

[alexandlorna]

Having read this topic and being amongst those who have recently chosen to upgrade their CO protection , I was wondering if anyone has had the same problems with detector sighting

We have just bought a "Fire Angel " unit which seems to be very good at its job

However I am wondering if anyone else has had problems with seemingly "false" alarms

I define false as when we are running no CO producing devices of ANY kind and are nowhere near other vessels

We have a desicant (or wheel) type dehumidifier which also includes and ioniser and I suspect this may be setting the unit off , so can anyone who really knows the answer , comment on this ....

Also we are told , put the unit where you sleep : but for the life of me I cant see how you can sleep with a green led flashing brightly when trying to get some kip , but that's only a minor detail

My issue is that a "false" alarm if such it is , will result in loss off faith in the protection device and its swift consignment to Davey Jones's locker - hence my wish to have a clear understanding of what can trigger this unit other than CO

I have also tried a different detector which did the same

Alex

[ranworthbreeze]

Hi Alex,

We sited ours in the galley which to me seemed the most logical area to cover, no false alarms, I test it at the Season Start and every time we are on the boat. Like everything on board that uses batteries is replaced at the Season Start in late February.

Regards

Alan

 

[alexandlorna]

Hi Alan, we have tried about 5 locations including that area , but still these annoying "false" alarms

It was ok three nights running then one wet evening last week ,went off again ,(coincidentally?) when we had the dehumidifier on

I got up and moved it sitting it on top of a very large vent grille , two hours latter was up again and it was showing its highest ever reading of 158 ppm which frankly astounded me !

[vanessan]

I have never understood the need to block all forms of ventilation. Even when it is cold, wet and windy I still have to have windows open to an extent, especially at night. (There is nothing quite like snuggling down in a warm bed but your nose tingles in cool air!) We do have a CO alarm on board but always have fresh air circulating too.

[vanessan]

And before anybody mentions it, yes I know open windows can let in fumes etc from outside. As I understand it, the boat in which the poor people perished had no ventilation whatsoever.