Running Engines Shock Warning Following Tragedy.

[dnks34]

The grill burner on our twin cavity gas cooker triggered our carbon monoxide alarm the other week and its been playing on my mind ever since.  

The carbon monoxide alarm has a digital display which showed between 200-300 ppm when it activated.  We obviously switched the grill off sharpish and opened all the windows and all went outside till the alarm stopped.  There is fixed ventilation in 3 areas of the saloon/galley and the cockpit hatch was also open along with another window and the canopy sides were out because it was very hot outside so in my opinion there was masses of ventilation at that time.   This doesnt seem to happen with the hob or oven even with just the fixed ventilation at play and other windows / hatches closed.  When we use the oven a fan comes on after a while and stays on till the oven cools, i dont think it comes on for the grill. 

Is there something wrong with the grill that ought to be looked at by someone qualified? We dont use the grill very often could that have anything to do with it? 

[ranworthbreeze]

Hi Daniel,

I would get someone to look at the grill if I were you, if the flame is yellow rather than blue it needs regulating/adjusting. The issue with grills is that you tend to have the door open when in use

Our grill is great for drying bread, but it is poor at doing toast, so we like yourself rarely use it, I have fitted new jets to no effect. The oven works great.

Regards

Alan

[dnks34]

Hi Alan thanks for the advice, I will take a quick look at the grill flames quickly next time im there and see what colour they are.  In the meantime we have bought an electric toaster but we dont have a generator fitted so will rely on shore power to use it, fine when we are on our home mooring at least.  

 

[Vaughan]

Grills tend not to light at once, especially if they are electric ignition. does it light by a spark, or do you use a lighter/match? If it does not light at once then the gas accumulated in the grill space will go off with a whoosh, which is "incomplete combustion" and may well set off your CO alarm. Best to light the grill with a match, or long-stalked gas lighter.

1 hour ago, dnks34 said:

Is there something wrong with the grill that ought to be looked at by someone qualified?

If you think so then YES.

[dnks34]

Hi Vaughan, it lights with an ignition switch connected to the 12v so a spark.   Im not going to mess about with it, can anyone recommend a qualified person south broads before I start the google trawl!! 

[ranworthbreeze]

Hi Daniel,

Here is a link to our services section on the forum, but I guess you will need a qualified gas engineer.

http://forum.norfolkbroadsnetwork.com/forum/87-services/

Regards

Alan

[MBA Marine]

Try Will Kirby, Freshwater marine. He's an alright sort of fella with certifications to his name

[Vaughan]

I apologise, dnks34 if my last post sounded grumpy, but I have just seen the BBC Look East report on this incident and they have, sure enough, descended into their usual "doom-watch" journalism. There is no reason whatever for them to insinuate, from a preliminary report, that all hire boats on the Broads must now be made safer (in some way).

This was not a hire boat, it was not even a Broads boat, it was not even, I understand, a British built boat. One would have been better to enter it in the Thursday evening power-boat race on Oulton Broad! It is totally in-admissable, in my view, to now infer that there is something wrong with hire boats and we are all therefore at some previously un-seen peril. They never said a word about private boats.

They did, however, mention the other two cases in the last three years. One was a boat almost the same as this latest one, on Lake Windermere and the other was a fishing boat in Whitby, where the problem was a gas cooker. 

This sort of knee-jerk reaction from the media will do the Broads no more good now, than it has ever done in the past, and I tell you that from bitter personal experience of our "Crusaders for the Truth at All Costs".

I am confident, after all these years, that Broads hire boats are installed and maintained to the highest standards. If they are now to fit CO detectors, fine. It can't do any harm. So long as their customers don't bugger about with them!

By the way, Daniel, as your grill is spark ignition I would guess there's nothing wrong with it; but why not get your boat checked over by a qualified gas fitter? I would recommend that to any boat owner!

 

[dnks34]

Didnt sound grumpy to me Vaughan.

Did anyone else notice the collosal cock up with the on screen text introducing the barnes brinkcraft lady when she was stood talking about them fitting detectors?

text said:. Brink Barnescraft

massive sign in background alonside river bure said.....Barnes Brinkcraft! 

[riyadhcrew]

Very good post Vaughan. Brings it all into reality. 

[ChrisB]

you can not even compare the Windermere incident with Wroxham. 

Given the qualifications of the gentleman concerned it is just unreal.

http://www.itv.com/news/border/update/2015-10-26/windermere-carbon-monoxide-deaths-gas-fitter-found-guilty-of-manslaughter/

 

[Mowjo]

Having been a near victim of blowback with my 1.6 petrol engine running at 850revs to warm it up, all I can say is if making them compulsory saves just one life then it's worth it!

 

[JennyMorgan]

Perhaps there should be emission testing on all boats, just as there is with the MOT & cars. Just hope that no one has a VW marine engine!!

[vanessan]

There is something else to think about here too. This boat was moored on the Wroxham spit where there is space for only one boat. A lovely spot. BUT, had it been on a mooring with other boats, they may have had a slightly better chance of survival. Presumably the engine was running until it ran out of petrol which I assume may have been a while. Other boaters may well have sensed a problem and been able to do something although I appreciate the fumes would have taken hold quickly. Who knows. But this does add to the  whole circumstances here being unusual.

[ExUserGone]

10 hours ago, JennyMorgan said:

Perhaps there should be emission testing on all boats, just as there is with the MOT & cars. Just hope that no one has a VW marine engine!!

They wouldn't survive testing my twin volvo's, could put any vw to shame, in fact could probably put the london smogs to shame too.

[TheQ]

I was asked to move my boat at the sailing club which had the engine running, due to the smoke cloud,.....

A British seagull 102CC

[Viking23]

Having read the Boat Safety Scheme's position, it still only recommends having a CO detector.

What I cannot understand is why oh why doesn't that become part of the 4 yearly BSS test? 

Let me ask this question, who, reading this forum would object to having CO alarms fitted to their boats, either private or hire, and made a compulsory item to be tested by BSS?

Maybe the hirers should ask the question of the hire yard, is the boat fitted with a Co detector ? maybe an opportunity for some hire companies to put this on their feature list, maybe before bow thrusters or electric anchor winches, or electric shore power.

Prices vary for CO detectors, the ones with the -2 on the approval number are better suited to boats and caravans, mine is a -1 better than nothing, and it does work too. £20 + is only a minor price to pay for safety.

We were cruising towards Wroxham bridge canopy down of our 15 hp outboard powered rear cockpit boat, the engine doing around 1500 rpm.

Wind was slight, about 1 mph above our speed from the stern. The CO alarm in the cabin went off, the hatch on the cabin roof was fully open, and it is said that under these conditions, ventilation works by fresh air entering from the rear cabin door and exiting via the forward cabin roof hatch.

This was proven to be the case. All this time we were sat in the cockpit with a cloud of Carbon Monoxide around us. In fact we were cruising in these conditions for at least an hour, before some CO managed to trigger the alarm. What have we been breathing in all this time? Makes you think.

I will be writing (email) to BSS to see why they are not including the CO detector in their test proceedure. Maybe others should follow.

 

Another issue, short toll licences are issued to anyone, even those without a Boat Safety Certificate, or after any form of inspection. Pay your money, stick a couple of numbers on your hull and away you go. You can stop a week, 2 weeks or 28 days. Now if you can die in a few minutes from Carbon Monoxide poisoning, think how many minutes there are in a week or even a month. It's also not their lives they are risking either.

So should we assume that some boats on short toll licences are a greater risk than others on the Broads? 

 

Many years ago, before the BSS was introduced, my Father regularly trailed his yacht to the broads, on a short visitor toll,  there was no way that would have passed the boat safety certificate. For example a gas bottle connected up, was in the transom locker, no lower drain, if it had, the boat would have sunk. The gas bottle also shared the locker with an outboard fuel tank, several containers of petrol, and .... a 12 volt battery. I was very young at the time, and I was not aware of the dangers he was putting us all in.

Richard

[JennyMorgan]

17 hours ago, ChrisB said:

Maybe the batteries were low, alot of those American sports cruisers like SeaRay, Bayliner etc. are very power hungry sporting fridge, freezer, microwave, electric cookers. As suggested here on their home waters they would be plugged in.

Chris makes a very valid point.

I was talking to a friend yesterday who keeps his boat down at Levington Marina near Ipswich, apparently the same issues exist down there with the sailing fraternity objecting to, what they see, as the unnecessary and excessive run up and run down of engines at moorings. Me, I'd turn the darn things off ASAP, if only for peace & quiet!

[JennyMorgan]

48 minutes ago, TheQ said:

I was asked to move my boat at the sailing club which had the engine running, due to the smoke cloud,.....

A British seagull 102CC

Quite right too!

10 to 1 fuel mix by any chance?

[Vaughan]

Thank you for your post Viking - I think you are talking a lot of sense. Smoke detectors have just been made obligatory in all houses in France, and houses are being inspected by the Prefectures.

Please post us a copy of your letter to the BSS. It will be interesting to see their response, as well.

Some of you may think I am a bit scathing of CO detectors. Actually I am not, it is just that they only tell you when the problem has already arrived. I am satisfied that if a boat has a proper gas installation with adequate ventilation, then the risk of CO is minimal to negligible. Exhaust fumes, however, are another matter as sometimes they are not even coming from your own boat, in which case a CO detector becomes a first line of defence.

But I am still trying to treat the disease, and not just its symptoms and the disease is the running of engines on moorings to charge batteries.

I am sorry to bang on but the only real way out of this in future will be shore power. It took me 5 years to get all our hire boats fitted in France and several years also to persuade the local ports to fit the power points. Now it is done, the difference is amazing. Less engine wear, lower fuel consumption, peace and quiet, and no exhaust fumes!

Excuse me saying so but it is becoming ever clearer that the Broads must come up to date on this.

 

[TheQ]

18 minutes ago, JennyMorgan said:

Quite right too!

10 to 1 fuel mix by any chance?

yep although I later converted it to the much? less smoke producing 20 to 1

[LondonRascal]

Consider this – you are in your car and sat in stationary or slow moving traffic in a busy town centre. Your windows are up and you have your heating or air-conditioning on, drawing air from outside into the vehicle. All around your car are sources of Carbon Monoxide being pumped out from other cars and lorries and you have a device that is physically sucking the air and other pollutants inside your car.  But, nobody seems to take much notice of this or gets overly worried, but then we don’t have CO alarms inside our cars.

 

As to the BSS not requiring the fitment of CO alarms to boats, the issue is a great number of people would likely be opposed to being forced to buy something they may not consider to be important (regardless of if it is actually). 

 

Looking at rented homes, from the 1st October 2015 regulations changed which require Smoke Alarms to be installed in rented residential accommodation and Carbon Monoxide alarms in rooms with a solid fuel appliance. My how some of our client’s who are Landlords have complained about this with the cost of fitting them over their property portfolio and why they wonder, is it only Landlords that must and not private home owners also required to do the same across the country.

 

It all is about cost and risk. 

 

If there was deaths caused from CO poisoning from engine exhausts on boats happening for example, 5 times in 2014, 8 times in 2015 and so far in 2016 10 times then there would be all types of debates, pushing for the statutory implementation of CO alarms on boats,  boat exhaust systems to be changed in design - you name it. But it does not happen enough to warrant this.   

Goodness knows how many people over the years have died from faulty boilers, gas fires and hobs in rented homes but it only is from 2015 something has been done about trying to prevent it, so I don’t think much will change with boats anytime soon

[Mowjo]

We had a similar type of boat moored next to us at Womack last week, every now and then he would start his engine, then the wife would appear with a cup of tea, then he would run it for an hour I pressume for hot water, I can only think this type of boat has no gas and relies on the engine to power electric cookers, microwaves and water, for me not a problem in an open mooring, but thinking about the above comments I can see how easily accidents like this happen, he was moored stern on with part of the canopy open, making blow back as the fumes hit the quay heading more likely, my fear is with more of these no gas boats on the Broads are we going to see more accidents like this??  as it seems they can't do anything without running the engine,,

[Viking23]

Hi Vaughan, just to let you know, I have emailed the BSS regading CO alarms, I will not publish my letter just yet, as I have asked their permission to publish their comments following their reply.

Their auto reply says to expect to hear a reply within two working days. 

As some of you know, regarding my Prostate Cancer, I have  tried to advise people to get them selves checked out, hopefully I have made a difference, if only one life has been saved, or people's lives extended, then my efforts have been worthwhile.

I will be taking the Carbon Monoxide issue as seriously, but in the mean time, I suggest that we all fit these devices, you don't even have to be on a boat with fuel burning appliances to die from Carbon Monoxide poisoning. 

The Broads Authourity are encouraging double mooring, but do we have to check where their central heating flues are, or their generator, or gas fridge flues are?

You and you alone are responsible for your own and families safety.

Sorry to go on, but this is a serious issue.

Richard

[Matt]

6 hours ago, Vaughan said:

 

I am sorry to bang on but the only real way out of this in future will be shore power. It took me 5 years to get all our hire boats fitted in France and several years also to persuade the local ports to fit the power points. Now it is done, the difference is amazing. Less engine wear, lower fuel consumption, peace and quiet, and no exhaust fumes!

Excuse me saying so but it is becoming ever clearer that the Broads must come up to date on this.

 

Agreed.

I never understand why at mooring such as Bramerton and Somerlyton they to go the (presumably) large expense of getting electric to the mooring and then only put in a couple of posts at one end of the mooring rather than carry on down the whole mooring (like they have at Ranworth). And more often than not a boat moors in front of the post and does not use it despite moorings without electric access being available 50yards down the river!