Bad Form To Fly An Ensign On A Hire Boat?

[JamesLV]

Hi all,

Firstly, I hope you've all had an amazing weekend, shame we're at the witching hour for the working week, but something has to pay for these holidays!

Secondly, is it bad form to want to fly a red duster on our hire boat? I've done a bit of research and it seems that it most likely isn't, but I really don't want to upset anyone by flying a flag I shouldn't be.

Worst case I'll put St. Petroc's flag on the back (at least I know I'm entitled to that!)

Have a great week guys, just think, not that long to the next trip!

James, Ems and Jangles

[dnks34]

Part of my thinks theres been a thread in the past about Ensigns and im sure theres a reason they shouldnt really be displayed on hire boats....but someone please correct me if im wrong.

Whats wrong with the traditional skull and crossbones anyway?!

[JennyMorgan]

If the person flying the 'red duster' is a British citizen then surely they are entitled to fly their national, maritime flag.

[Polly]

It's more likely to be a question of 'how'? Lots of hire boats don't have anything like a flagstaff on them, you may have to improvise.

 

[JennyMorgan]

Regarding the Devon flag, 'tis rather colourful! Think if we had a similar 'ensign' for Suffolk then I'd fly that, despite having a huge respect for the 'Red'.

 

[JennyMorgan]

1 minute ago, Polly said:

It's more likely to be a question of 'how'? Lots of hire boats don't have anything like a flagstaff on them, you may have to improvise.

 

Where there is a will there is a way!

[dnks34]

I must be wrong then!! Could have sworn Id read something but obviously not. 

[jeffbroadslover]

How very thoughtful of Hearts Cruisers.

Fitted a second motor run by clockwork (hence the big key on the roof) and if that fails they supply loads of sails as well.   lol

Jeff

[JennyMorgan]

11 minutes ago, dnks34 said:

I must be wrong then!! Could have sworn Id read something but obviously not. 

Probably you did but I've had a quick bash on Google and can find no suggestion that a hire or charter boat can't wear the national colours of the hirer. Nevertheless an interesting question. 

[Timbo]

I've been researching ensigns of various descriptions after a daft idea I had, but that's another topic, and after a conversation with a very nice lady at the Admiralty last week I can give you the basic simple rules...and I mean basic.

Any British citizen ON LAND may fly the union flag.
The Royal Navy may fly the Union Flag on a vessel if it is moored, at anchor, or underway if masthead ensigns are flown, the Queen or the Admiral of the fleet is on board or a court martial is in progress. That flag will be flown as a jack (on the bow).
The red ensign may be flown from any vessel at sea or inland water if the OWNER of the vessel is British.
The white ensign is for Royal Navy vessels only.
The Blue Ensigns both dark and light may be flown by CURRENTLY commissioned officers of the Royal Navy or RAF either active or reserve. Blue ensigns may also be flown by government vessels.

Red, White and the Blue Ensigns that are defaced or carry a badge in addition to the union flag are flown by vessels registered with certain yacht clubs or organisations. It is the vessel through its registration that is 'entitled' not the owner or skipper. A prime example of this is boats registered with the historic fleet who wear a defaced red ensign...where poor old Royal Tudor is 12" too short and therefore on the historic small boat register and wears the plain red ensign. Who says size doesn't matter?

If you wear a red ensign on your vessel then it should be hoisted at sunrise and lowered at sunset, unless thee is a RN warship near by and then you take the time from the warship.

An interesting tidbit...or I found it so...the UK government prefers it's citizens abroad, if they must fly a flag, to fly the red ensign. The red ensign is much easier to spot if flown in distress or upside down. 
 

[tjg1677]

Just as a slight addition to the great info from timbo, I am fairly certain that to qualify to fly a red ensign, the vessel has to be registered on the Lloyds register of shipping as a british vessel. When I was in the merch, the company I worked for decided to flag out all of its coastal tanker fleet. Originally they were looking at Liberia or Nassau but decided that as they would no longer be entitled to fly the red duster, not to do so.

In the end they opted for Douglas ( IOM ) which weirdly had more relaxed rules than the Dept of Transport ( now the MCA ) but yet allowed the ships to still fly the red ensign and be sort of british registered but not fall under the auspices of the DOT, all very odd.

Being ex RN too, I would love to fly a white ensign on GK but sadly that would be rather frowned upon. I think I will get the Lincolnshire flag which is nice and colourful or even design my own house flag, and no, not open suggestions thanks, I know what you lot are like....lol  

trev

[JamesLV]

I thought there probably was a reason behind it, I remember an ex brother in law being very insistent we had it out when we were underway on his parents broom ocean 37.

 

Thanks for all the info though!

[JawsOrca]

Although I can't argue with the admiralty, I think there is a bit more to it.  I believe it goes something like this. If the boat is registered with the government then it should fly that countries ensign (this will explain why on the canal shows we saw a swedish hireboat flying a swedish flag and why my friends boat in greece flys a greek ensign), if it's not then it should fly the ensign of its owner, if the owner isn't present then it should fly the ensign of it's captain. There is nothing overly special about an ensign it's just used as to understand the boats and crews nationality. At sea you most wear an ensign as if you don't and authorities you will be boarded, you are also under the navy of the countries ensign you are flying at that time so it's best to fly it! if you don't fly it you are a , so you don;t actually need to fly a pirates flag  

Inland (well the broads) it don't overly matter as it's a playground, those that want to follow tradition, do, but no one is going to stop anyone or say anything, so if on a hire boat you want to go for it.. although it's a bit uncommon to see. (use a cheap flagstaff... brian wards do.. 10% discount mentioning NBN - http://www.brianwards.co.uk/chandlery/flags-staffs/stainless-steel-pulpit-flag-staff.html).  Y

[Polly]

I was thinking broom handle myself...... 

[NeilB]

Going back quite a few years several hire yards used to have a red ensign on their boats, Loynes even had them on their day boats.  I would scan a picture but they are 100 miles away at my mums and also show a 3 or 4 year old NeilB !!

[MauriceMynah]

38 minutes ago, JawsOrca said:

Inland (well the broads) it don't overly matter as it's a playground, those that want to follow tradition, do, but no one is going to stop anyone or say anything,

Thank you Jaws, I think that this says it all.

 Whilst I fully agree that certain flags should not be flown (white ensign etc.) I see no reason for anyone to lose sleep over such a faux pas.

I for one dislike seeing the Jolly Roger being flown, except when all the crew are dressed as pirates and fun is being had. Under those circumstances it's all part of the dressing up. To fly it as a standard is largely pointless and if anything cheapens the whole appearance of the boat, That is however just my opinion.

I suppose my own view is... Fly what you like, how you like, but fly it with pride.

[Chelsea14Ian]

I understood it as others have said our boat is ssr which gives us the right to fly the red ensign. WE will be supported  by the Royal  Navy if need be!

Ian

[Timbo]

James the long and the short of it as Alan says if you want to fly the red ensign on the Broads, then do it! Its all part of the fun. My Dad used to play at 'pirates' with kids on passing holiday boats in true Arthur Ransom fashion. Shouts of 'Avast you scurvy dogs' would often erupt from the old boy wearing his 'sailor cap' with much waving of his newspaper quickly rolled up as a telescope or cutlass. Whilst the parents on board the hire boats often looked dubious and slightly alarmed the kids thought it was great fun running out imaginary canon to fire on us as we passed. As Polly says there's nothing wrong with a skull and crossbones either!

 Just like Trev we also fly the Lincolnshire flag from Royal Tudor...amongst many others my Dad collected. But you see all sorts of flags on The Broads flown for many different reasons than those that they are meant for out on the 'High Seas'.

The international law on ship registration changed in 1914, 1955 and most recently in 2012 when Lloyd's became a 'company' as opposed to a charitable organisation. Your vessel needs to be registered if you intend to take her into International Waters. Your vessel is said to sail 'under the flag' of the country of registration. Different countries have various regulations regarding safety and construction of vessels and the nationality of the crew. In the UK if your pleasure vessel is under 23 meters and you wish to enter international waters you need to register under section 3 of the UK register which will cost you £49 every five years. Some countries are legally obligated to 'fire upon' unregistered vessels.

But there is one flag you HAVE TO FLY ON THE BROADS! Your NBN members flag! Hand sewn by virgins (Griff and I get sore fingers from all that tapestry) and made from the remnants of Gracie's trousseau the NBN pennant is the must have flag for all Broads Craft to avoid international incident, kidnap by 'pirates' and income tax. _{Terms and Conditions Apply subject to time of day, how much I've drunk, how much you've drunk and whether I've taken my medication or not.} Get your NBN flag here!

Can we have the link to the shop back please?

[JennyMorgan]

Re Timbo being twelve inches too short in the boat length department there is a simple and not unheard of solution, lengthen the boat, sprout a counter stern on Royal Tudor, or, heaven forbid, an elaborate bowsprit. Perhaps nail one of Grace's twelve inch stilettos to the stem head, where there is a will there is a way!

As for me, when I consider the actions of the British merchant fleets both at the Falklands and in two World Wars then I feel quite humbled and proud just to be able and indeed entitled to fly the Red Duster.

[JennyMorgan]

Originally Brinkcraft was owned by a Mr Brinkoff, or however it's spelled. A gentleman of Swiss origin who advertised in his home country and from where many of his customer came from. It was something of a standing joke on the Broads that when his Swiss customers were onboard that his boats would proudly fly the Swiss ensign, supplied by Mr Brinkoff, thus his fleet was widely referred to as the Swiss Navy by the denizens of the rhond.

[Gracie]

We have often flown a skull and crossbow flag much to the delight of our children, many a time has been spent having sword fights with plastic swords and a pretend game of walk the plank for the loser. We've often had passing boats call out  related things, I wonder if at any time it was Uncle Albert, I like to think so

As for my heels being used as a bowsprit, I really don't think so  lol

Grace

[JennyMorgan]

Re lengthening Royal Tudor then perhaps Timbo should consider a clipper bow as well as a counter stern:

[smellyloo]

Gracie Blackbeard & Clipper Morgan the most feared pirates in the East!!

[Vaughan]

No-one is wrong about what has been said here, but you have all missed the main point! The reason hire boats don't fit ensign staffs is because the hirers keep breaking them off, with mooring ropes or tree branches. For an ensign to look any good, its staff will protrude above the aft cabin, so one time under Thorpe bridge and that's it! If this happens to rip the flag socket out of the deck at the same time then you are left with a considerable repair.

In other word, ensigns are not "hirer proof"!

[Vaughan]

8 hours ago, tjg1677 said:

Being ex RN too, I would love to fly a white ensign on GK but sadly that would be rather frowned upon.

Yes indeed, but if Trev wants to wear the un-defaced blue ensign, he can do so by joining the RNSA or RNVR sailing club, for which he is eligible as ex Navy. He can then apply for a warrant from the club, to wear the ensign on his boat. For this, the boat must be British registered and the ensign can only be worn when he is on board, or ashore in the same harbour.

There is another rule which may apply - If Trev is a passenger on another boat, he may not wear his ensign, but if he is the charterer of a British registered boat, although he is not the owner, then he may. Quite a lot of hire boats are British registered, in order to obtain a Marine Mortgage, so in theory, this would be possible, if you hold a warrant, and by checking with the boatyard.

I am sorry, but the flying of the England flag on a hire boat just shows you up as not only a soccer hooligan, but totally ignorant of our maritime traditions. The "England Flag" is actually the Banner of St George, which was the Royal Naval ensign up until Tudor times. So flying it as in Peter's photo is about as bad as flying the white ensign! To fly it on the bow is definitely illegal, since this is an honour granted by the Queen Mother to the Little Ships of Dunkirk.