Fuelling Points

[riyadhcrew]

I had a Carousel from Richardsons a couple of years ago in the early season. I used 180 litres in a week and had to pay them 60 quid on top of my 150 quid deposit. Dual heaters were on a lot.

Worth every penny.

[Matt]

When we have a big crew onboard Thunder we generally have a pumpout mid week and then refuel as well- if we are up North then generally southgates as Boulters takes about another 30mins of backwards and forwards!

A few weeks back though we stayed south for the week and used 60litres.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Vaughan]

I went from Stalham to Thorpe, WRC, Salhouse and back in a 44ft boat, used 83 litres and Ricko's gave me more than 50 quid back. I also had to stem the tide on Breydon. Couldn't expect better than that!

It is worth mentioning in all this, that a Webasto diesel heater uses 2.5.litres an hour. That is more than a Nanni engine at 6MPH.

[JennyMorgan]

£2.50 per hour for heating! Wow!! One of my daughters is a 'liveaboard' and her boat has gas heating. Her whole boat is cosy in minutes and todate costs a great deal less than that to run. Three hours a day, about £50.00 whilst on holiday, maybe not an issue. The original poster asked, I think, a reasonable question but in reality he might save £20.00 on his cruising costs by shopping around, whilst I suspect that there is a degree of principle involved I'd suggest it's not worth the agro for one week's holiday. Use the tides, keep the revs down, three jumpers rather than firing up the heating, no problem! 

[MauriceMynah]

Lets just do a few calculations here to put the issue into perspective. I shall convert to metric when it's easiest!

We shall say your boat runs for 1.5 hours to a gallon of fuel. That's not going to be miles off the truth. 3 hours cruising will therefore use 4.5 gallons which is near enough 10 litres.

We shall say that you average 5 hours cruising a day (and that's quite a high average) That's 30 hours (I don't count 'handover day' as you don't do much cruising either of those two days)  30 hours equals 100 litres.

Now, If we say the difference between the cheapest and the most expensive fuel is 25p per litre the absolute maximum you can hope to save is £25..

I've just read Vaughan's post so I'll add 3+ hours heating a day (again a lot) so 50 litres for heating giving a new maximum saving of £37.50

   against that...

I've looked at the boat you've hired and I'd expect it's economy to be better than I've benchmarked. I don't know how much Herbert Woods charge for fuel, but I'd wager that they are not the most expensive.

I don't know who (or where) the cheapest are but you might not find then and therefore you might pay slightly more than the rock bottom price.

I doubt you will cruise or heat for as long as I've estimated.

All of the last three paragraphs will diminish any savings to be made, I'd guess that the most you'd be likely to save is £20 tops.

My advice is ... Save up an extra £20 and say "Hang it all, I'm going to enjoy myself."

Oh, and I very much hop[e yo do enjoy yourselves.

Edited to add that JMs reply came up just as I was posting this. Interesting that we both think £20 :)

[JennyMorgan]

John, we are both wise old sages!

[grendel]

MM I have to question your sums, if you really meant 

1 hour ago, MauriceMynah said:

We shall say your boat runs for 1.5 hours to a gallon of fuel. That's not going to be miles off the truth. 3 hours cruising will therefore use 4.5 gallons which is near enough 10 litres

maybe you meant 1.5 gallons per hour, then your sums add up, but otherwise 3 hours cruising would equal 2 gallons not 4.5.

many years ago I had a VW variant, this had an eberspacer heater as well as the heat exchangers on the exhaust, this was rated at using 1 litre of petrol per hour, the heat exchangers werent too efficient, but if you turned the other heater on you would get the whole car toasty warm in minutes. the only drawback, the heater (in the engine compartment) was prone to catching fire, if not maintained and used at least once every 3 months

[ranworthbreeze]

My biggest fuel & pump out bill was £186.00, we had been all over the Southern & Northern Broads in a week, this April it was under £60.00 for around 10 days.

Regards

Alan

[MauriceMynah]

Thanks Grendel, Yes I meant Gallons per hour, not hours per gallon. :(

[garryn]

We once hired a Pirate of Hearts from Thorpe for a week and on the last morning going back to the boatyard the boat broke down. The boatyard came out and towed us back in. On checking out the boat they informed us we had run out of diesel. We did go south and North in that week which we have done many times and have always got money back on our fuel deposit. We never got anything back this time but were not charged any extra.

[LondonRascal]

What a hot topic this is :)

I take the 'moral high ground' then you look at it like this: All the boatyards exist to make money and that is their motivation - the handy outcome is people have happy holidays and great memories. 

While the cost of hire is variable, even between two yards with an identical boat, the cost of fuel is the same. If Herbert Woods charge £1.20 a litre, then you know that Richardson's will to along with Barnes Brinkcraft. If Herbert Woods reduce their fuel to £1.10 a litre then a week later the other yards will have followed suit.

It would be hard to charge more for an older boat and even new boats can only be let at what the market can support - increasingly money has been made harder to make with the fact car parking charges at many yards have been scrapped. Your gas (should your boat have it) is included in your hire charges too, and no longer do you need take out additional 'insurance' to cover you if your propeller was fouled. So just how can a boatyard make precious extra money?

Two key areas: Fuel and Waivers. You pay £150.00 deposit for your  fuel which at today's prices will 'buy you' 125 liters of fuel - very much less than a full tank.  Now on top of that, you are charged a non-refundable damage waiver and all those waivers and fuel at 20p a litre more than the independent small yard helps the business.

Now lets look at a frugal holiday maker who wants to save big. They should plan to take things slow, use the current to their advantage, and use heating frugally and let us for the sake of argument say they used 50 litres of fuel in a week. When they take their boat back to the yard they would have £60.00 back in their pocket to go home with. However, if they filled up elsewhere and paid £1.00 a litre they of course have paid out of their own pocket £50.00 - but might expect to get all of their £150.00 deposit back - they save £40.00 doing it this way compared to the boatyard - of course the boatyard would not like to see too many customers doing this as each time (you might say on average) is £40.00 for each  customer lost.

There is nothing to stop you doing this contractually and I have done this myself, but it takes thick skin to deal with the chap who has just put a a fivers worth of fuel in when you come back and then have to deal with reception giving you back a wad of notes with other holiday makers thinking 'how the hell did he manage that' - I stopped doing it after that experience.

But, what DOES annoy me greatly is the non-refundable damage waivers. It is the fact that they are almost 'sold' (yet you have no choice in getting them or not) to indemnify you against accidental damage or loss.  This is not insurance not only because the boat is already insured but because the boatyards cannot sell insurance (they would need to register with the Financial Conduct Authority if this was the case).

What these 'waivers' do is just build up for each hire over the year, and their vary a lot between yards - one may charge £30.00 a week another £55.00 and it makes no odds to length of holiday (and thus one may think risk) e.g. weekend break less risky than 1 week as boat is not out as long so not exposed to risk as much. You think how many boats from Richardson's go out over a year and if each one brought in above their hire rate and fuel use £40.00 - that is a lot ion the kitty!

Some say these waivers encourage bad behavior - after all you hit someone, or damage something and your not loosing out financially - equally some may say these waivers add up to cover the cost of the large damage caused at times to some boats. If that is so call it something other than a waiver such as 'fleet maintenance charge'. 

So the best way to save money? Well go back to the old days and a return to the refundable combined fuel and damage deposit. Do no damage, take care on how much fuel you use = get a big pay out when you come back to boatyard.

 

 

 

[Matt]

What's the most fuel you've used in a week, out of interest?

Probably not the best people to ask- even when we go North we tend to go straight there, potter around a little bit and then go straight back.

I can't remember ever topping £100 of diesel. It's normally between £60 - £70 with Easter being a bit more heater heavy.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[MauriceMynah]

Sorry Robin, but your sums don't quite work..

When matey returns the boat at the end of the holiday, the tank is filled (in your example with 50 litres) The cost of that fuel is then deducted from the fuel deposit if the deposit was £150, they would get back £150, less the cost of the fuel used.  This is measured  at the pump on filling

If the price of fuel at the hire yard is Xp per litre more expensive than the "outside supplier' and the total fuel used was 50 litres, then the money saved will be 50 times X. I reckoned that the maximum value of X would be 25p. With 50 litres used, the maximum saving would be £12.50

[LondonRascal]

My maths are bad sorry. Let me try again

I worked matters out this way:  You pay a deposit of £150.00 - the boatyard you hire from charges £1.20 per litre for its fuel. Thus your £150.00 deposit has 'bought' you 125 litres of fuel from them for your holiday.

If you used 50 litres of fuel and had the boatyard you hired from fill your tank upon return @£1.20 per litre, this would mean £60.00 in fuel going to the boatyard since this would be deducted form your £150.00 deposit. You'd go home with £90.00 but the yard made £60.00 off you.

If you however you stopped off at another yard and filled up with 50 litres of fuel @1.00 a litre (£50.00) this would be deducted from your own wallet. Upon return to the yard you hired from they cannot fill you up since your tank is full. You are refunded the full £150.00 from them.

While you actually are only 'quids in' by £10.00 in your own wallet, the yard you hired from are £60.00 down in revenue from the fuel sale. So perhaps this is a good reason morally why this is not a good thing to as the saving to person is small but the cost to the business of the hire yard large.

Now I hope i got the math right this time.

 

[Matt]

That's pretty much the sort of figure I was expecting.
She seems very economical given her length, certainly the newer boats of that size can use quite a lot more fuel than that in a week. Not being on hydraulics does help, of course.

Rarely above 2000 revs- you have to look after the old girl!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[VetChugger]

So, the yards don't charge excessively for fuel then? Have to make a bit on fuel because margins are so narrow?? I reckon that's all Hans Christian Anderson stuff. The majority of yards appear to charge at least 20p above the sort of cost you would see at the likes of Boulters and Goodchilds. Thats in the region of 20%!

I've been holidaying on the Broads for some forty years plus now and experienced all manner of devious behaviour regarding fuel. Often you don't get to know what the actual charge per litre/gallon is until you return. Even when you return its not obvious. I once queried my refund against the price shown on the pump. Oh, that doesn't work was the response, we only use the quantity reading! That is a VERY common experience.  I'm pretty sure that there is something illegal just in that!

I once asked why the yard charges so much for fuel! "Because we can" was the curt response! This was one of the occasions I had topped up and they noticed. "Why did you top up" they asked on my return. How surprised would you be to hear my response?? "Because I could"!

As for the suggestion that "worrying about the cost of fuel" can stress my holiday! Not a bit. Once away from the yards I've always enjoyed every minute of my time on the Broads. Although I've rambled on a tad and it may seem I'm obsessed with fuel prices, I'm not at all. I'm just your normal everyday sort who doesn't like being taken for a ride. Being a boat owner as well as a hirer, I am well aware of the difference in fuel cost.

[Wildfuzz]

I will stick to my 15hp 4 stroke outboard, using it most weekends throughout the year to pootle about, 50l of quality unleaded is all we ever use....... Wouldn't mind some heating in the winter though............ oh and a hot shower/running water

[BrundallNavy]

I once went all the way from Wayford to Beccles and back with a 5hp 2 stroke outboard on 10 ltrs of petrol 

[LondonRascal]

While you may be annoyed that the fuel charged by a large yard is £1.20 a litre but a smaller independent yard charges £1.00 - the smaller independent only does this to try and attract custom (most often from privately owned boats) who may then want to get some extras (maybe a pump out, maybe ask 'could you have a look at that oil leak') and thus gain some more meaningful business down the road. 

All yards big or small are making a mark up on fuel, considering  that for every 100 litres purchased, 40 litres will be subject to a rate of duty at 5% VAT (heating use) and 60 litres will be subject to full duty at 20% VAT (propulsion use). This is opposed to road fuel prices which are taxed 100% at 20%  VAT.

The only reason why the likes of Tesco charge less than a boatyard despite the fact you pay full VAT on each litre partly because of the sheer volume that Tesco can buy fuel in at and also the fact the boatyards large or small choose (as is their right) to make a profit on each litre sold. No rip off here, after all Imagine the cost of the tank and pump costs that the likes of LBBY had to pay out to get installed. They then sell the fuel at £1.05 per litre (it not going to be in thousands of litres a week so their 'buy in costs' are not going to be as cheap) so  it is only fair George makes some money to pay back his original outlay and once that is  done make a living.

Where things get interesting is you would be perfectly within the law to buy a 40 gallon drum of red diesel and have it delivered to you the following day and only pay 5% VAT on it.  You'd just have to declare to the company you bought this from that 100% of this fuel was being used for the likes of heating. What you do with it then on is up to you.

Now, I am not saying people should consider it, but let us face facts that once this is in your tank and since the onus is on you to declare its use (should you ever be asked by HMRC) who would know some of your 'heating fuel' was being used to drive the boat along?

[Matt]

It is worth mentioning in all this, that a Webasto diesel heater uses 2.5.litres an hour. That is more than a Nanni engine at 6MPH.

Not wishing to disagree with someone who knows far more about boats than I ever well the specs seem to suggest a much lower rate of consumption: https://www.webasto.com/gb/markets-products/marine/heating-solutions/air-heaters/air-top/

Even the 5kw one only uses up to 0.7 litres an hour. Apparently.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[BuffaloBill]

Our boat uses approximately 1.6ltrs per hour over a 1 week period

using the tides when possible, or if going south then it's having to

use the tides! If it used MM's amount of fuel, then something would

be seriously wrong! 

As for heating, we have an Eberspacher D5LC which uses

around 0.6ltrs per hour on full chat and 0.4ltrs when in tickover

mode. It is fitted with the Eber 24/7 timer and their temperature

control monitor. Once it reaches the temperature I set, it reduces

to a tickover to keep the temperature correct. During this period, it 

goes back on full power every so often to keep the burners clean. So

far we have had no issues with it at all, and we use the boat during

the winter months too.

[Bound2Please]

2 hours ago, LondonRascal said:

While you actually are only 'quids in' by £10.00 in your own wallet, the yard you hired from are £60.00 down in revenue from the fuel sale. So perhaps this is a good reason morally why this is not a good thing to as the saving to person is small but the cost to the business of the hire yard large.

Now I hope i got the math right this time.

Robin the yard is only down the £10 plus the amount of profit they would have made on the 50l maybe £10, so the yard looses £20 not £60 mate.

Charlie

[NorfolkNog]

I bet the OP wonders what he has started! 

[LondonRascal]

10 minutes ago, Bound2Please said:

Robin the yard is only down the £10 plus the amount of profit they would have made on the 50l maybe £10, so the yard looses £20 not £60 mate.

Charlie

Goes back to school to do maths again

[Vaughan]

2 hours ago, Matt said:

Even the 5kw one only uses up to 0.7 litres an hour. Apparently.

What I have quoted seems a lot, doesn't it? What manufacturers quote is often a lot less than what actually happens in practice. If you believe what it says in the manual for your electric fridge, you would only fit half the batteries that you actually need!

In Crown Blue Line all the boats have hour meters and I can always recommend these on a boat. They give you a great deal of information about your boat's performance. In my case, looking at over 400 hire boats, it gave me the chance to look at a boat's performance in the summer as well as the winter, doing the same cruise, in the same conditions. As the fuel consumption was significantly greater during the off season, I was able to put this down to the extra consumption of the heater.

On one occasion, I had to take a boat from my base in Chateau-Thierry, on the Marne, right up through the canals as far as Brussels, in order that it could be used by a film crew. A memorable journey for Susie and I, in mid winter, in freezing temperatures day and night, so we needed the Webasto simply to stop the diesel freezing in the pipes! As this was one of my own boats, I knew exactly what its  fuel consumption was, and I knew exactly what it was using, as I was having to carry the fuel from local garages in plastic cans! I also kept note of the number of hours I ran the Webasto. So at the end of the journey - almost a week - the extra fuel used by the heater worked out at 2.5 litres an hour.

I admit I am talking about one of the older HL32 Airtop units and hopefully more modern ones are more efficient but I can assure you that sitting in the warm comfort of the saloon of your hired craft does not come cheap!