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Davydine

The Rights And Wrongs Of Rights Of Way

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If I had the remotest suspicion that a boat was possibly intending to cross my bows, I would hang back and let him go.  You can't rely on anyone knowing the "rules of the road" whether hirers or owners, and so prudence is the safest policy.

 

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I remember many years ago I used to drive down to Devon for holidays. Initially I'd see how often other cars would give way to me on the narrow twisting country roads. It didn't take very long for me to realise that it was far more relaxing and friendly to give way as often as possible with friendly waves and smiles.

I suspect boating on the broads is the same. Newbies comer along and try to use their "rights of way" wherever they can (whilst pushing their luck a bit with sailies,  but after a while learning to relax.

I have been boating in one form or another since I was ten, so can't really remember when I started "chilling out" on the water, but I do realise that this "chilling" doesn't come quickly or easily to someone who spends most of his life driving a car either aggressively or defensively, working for perhaps a less than easy going boss, and returning home to the domestic stresses to be found there.

Those of us who have boating experience, know and enjoy the pleasures of giving way, assisting others, and generally living life below the speed limits. Sometimes I think we need to have more patience for those still getting the hang of it.

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I find it mildly irritating when someone takes over the helm and straight away increases the speed from the, for example, 4.6 mph you've been pottering along at to bang on 5mph because that is the speed limit :default_icon_e_surprised:

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I hire from Martham boats, they dont even have rev counters, so its find a setting where the engine sounds happy, I might even consider a gps app on my tablet, I do have an external gps antenna for it that increases the accuracy a fair bit.

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8 hours ago, MauriceMynah said:

I remember many years ago I used to drive down to Devon for holidays. Initially I'd see how often other cars would give way to me on the narrow twisting country roads. It didn't take very long for me to realise that it was far more relaxing and friendly to give way as often as possible with friendly waves and smiles.

I suspect boating on the broads is the same. Newbies comer along and try to use their "rights of way" wherever they can (whilst pushing their luck a bit with sailies,  but after a while learning to relax.

I have been boating in one form or another since I was ten, so can't really remember when I started "chilling out" on the water, but I do realise that this "chilling" doesn't come quickly or easily to someone who spends most of his life driving a car either aggressively or defensively, working for perhaps a less than easy going boss, and returning home to the domestic stresses to be found there.

Those of us who have boating experience, know and enjoy the pleasures of giving way, assisting others, and generally living life below the speed limits. Sometimes I think we need to have more patience for those still getting the hang of it.

I totally agree about the driving. My job involves a lot of driving and it is enormously relaxing to stay out of the way of all the stressed and angy people out there who chose to drive aggressively.

I sort of agree about boating and chilling out. In the example I gave, it was the private boat that was doing the shouting, so I am assuming they weren't a newbie, but you never know.

I suppose I have done quite a lot of boating over the years, several broads holidays, but most of my miles have been done sailing on the east coast, between the rivers Colne, Orwell, Deben and Crouch, with the occasional trip further afield. Nothing better than anticipating where other people are going and staying out of their way, likewise helping others and accepting help is one of the great joys of boating. Being afloat is a great leveller, regardless of being in a boat worth a few hundred quid or a super yacht worth severl hundred thousand.

Having said that, I was always taught that I should know who had right of way and that the stand on vessel had a duty to do just that and keep going, particularly when a small boat (like mine was!) is crossing the the path of something much bigger, because stopping suddenly could cause bigger problems.

It was all of the shouting coming from one boat that stuck in my mind. Such aggresion is rare on the Broads, which is why I asked the question. The moral of this story for me is that life is easier if we chill out and stay out of each others way, but if you do get a bit too close to another boat and you are going to shout and wave your hands about, you should be sure you actually had right of way, otherwise you look a bit daft.

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I find it's far better to keep calm, smile sweetly, wave gently, and carry a battery drill and holesaw, they have to moor somewhere..... :default_icon_twisted:

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Sorry, but I can't agree that vessel A is the stand on vessel. Vessel A is leaving the River Bure and turning to port into the Thurne. You should never cross the bow of another vessel, when not safe to do so. Neither is B the stand on vessel, as Coll Reg 15 says the vessel that has the other on her Starboard side, shall keep clear.  Obviously the best course of action is for A to slow down and let B pass clear ahead. Under no circumstances where collision is possible. should you ever turn to port as one post suggests, this is strictly against the Coll. Regs. and whilst hirers may not know them, insurance companies do. If vessel A did turn to port and the other vessel knew the Regs, and turned to Starboard, a collision would still result.

When a collision is possible a vessel or both vessels must turn to starboard as required by the Coll Regs (Red to Red and it's safe ahead), then alter to the desired course once safe to do so.

The International Rules for Preventing Collisions at Sea, apply to Rivers and Harbours as well a the sea, unless altered for local waters by Governments, again as stated in the Coll Regs.

Having said all that, if I were vessel A, I would just slow down and let vessel B pass safely head.

Happy Boating

Paul

 

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I suppose in a river it might be difficult turning to starboard as you dont have the sea room to necessarily do that, on the rivers common sense should reign, and people should just slow down and give and take a bit.

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Hello my prefix is CaptDave that's because for 40 years I was Captain in the Merchant Navy and the sector I worked was the Offshore Supply Vessel where I manoeuvred vessels from 50 meters to 90 meters and lived my life by the sailing rules.

The answer to this post is very simple and very clear.

If to Starboard Red appears it is you duty to keep clear

If upon your Port is seen a Steamers Starboard Light of Green there is not so much for you to do as Green to Red keeps clear of you.

I was taught that in 1968 and it stands true today therefore the vessel coming down the Thurne should have slowed down and let the other vessel cross its bow and proceed up the Thurne on the right side of the channel.

But and there is always a but as far as rule of the road is concerned the stand on vessel should have monitored the situation and if a close quarter situation was developing then they should have turned to Starboard (right) so they are turning away from the danger.  If a collision had occurred with a possible fuel spill the MCA would have given a large proportion of the blame to the boat coming down the Thurne but a percentage would have been given to the other vessel as they did not follow the rules correctly.  If it could be proven that those in charge of either boat did not know the rules then the insurance could be in jeopardy.

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And I repeat - hirers (and most private owners, myself included) have no idea of all that, and why should they? They're on holiday, not navigating the English Channel. Lighten up, and relax, everybody. Spring is a-coming, and all will be right with the world!

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I agree with Capt Daves interpretation  but not so much Paul N's - If on the Broads we followed that interpretation can you imagine the chaos? Take where the Ant meets the Bure.  Any vessel proceeding down the Bure would have to give way to vessels coming out of the Ant.  In fact same goes for any vessel leaving a dyke / Broad / Tributary river.  We would all end giving way to to any vessel on the Port bow - It ain't like that - Thank goodness.

Most if not all users of the Broads use the common sense approach in that if you are joining a main river from a tributary / dyke etc, then the main river has right of way - It works - Lets leave it that way without confusing all and sundry with colregs and the like

Griff

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PS broads regulations  16, 17, 18, and 19 apply in this situation.. 

 

 

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Surely number 16 says it all.     "When two vessels whether power-driven or manually propelled are crossing so as to involve risk of collision the master of the vessel which has the other on its own starboard side shall keep his vessel out of the way and shall, if the circumstances of the case admit, avoid crossing ahead of the other vessel."

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1 hour ago, TostockTimonier said:

Surely number 16 says it all. 

No it doesn't. Think on Griff's point about boats coming out of the River Ant. 16 implies that boats coming down the River Bure have to give way to them.

In fact, I am of the opinion that all the Col Regs AND the Broads regs do, is confuse the issue.   and really that's why this thread was started!

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Indicators and flashing headlights, that’s the answer! Mind you, there are too many on the roads that forget they have indicators so that wouldn’t work. How about roundabouts? Drivers don’t always use those properly either. And there’s the rub, drivers have been taught the rules of the road and still don’t abide by them. How can someone who has stepped on a boat for the first time be expected to know all the rules and regulations when even those of us who have been on the water for years don’t really know them inside and out? The Broads is a leisure area, we all use the rivers etc for fun (with exceptions of course) so common sense has to apply. That common sense should tell us when there is a first-class p**t at the helm so we can apply caution, roll our eyes and smile sweetly. That’s my view anyway. 

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Quite right too - lets just get on with it as before! No wonder there is such confusion with everyone thinking they are right - shame in reality its resulted in 3 pages of pretty much squit!

Lets all go on holiday on the rivers and have a nice time and use commonsense - although given some posts that might be really difficult!!!

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6 minutes ago, marshman said:

shame in reality its resulted in 3 pages of pretty much squit!

I saddens me that you respond this way to a genuine enquiry about what is right and what is wrong if going by the book.

Yes I agree that common sense should, and usually does prevail, but sometimes, just sometimes, knowing what's right is helpful. I also agree that we all (or at least the vast majority) rub along happily without sticking to the rulebook, yet it's kinda nice to know what that rulebook says.

Some may remember that I had cause to ask about a sailing craft who changed course to starboard to start a tack, I proceeded past him on his port side, only to have him turn about suddenly and head on a collision course. I went full ahead to avoid contact. The skipper of the sailing craft shouted at me that I needed to get more patience. I wondered who was in the right.

I remind you of this incident purely to illustrate that … a/ we all get it wrong sometimes,... b/ we all learn from our, and others mistakes,  … and c/ we need to know who was wrong so we can learn!   

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37 minutes ago, MauriceMynah said:

a/we all get it wrong sometimes,... b/ we all learn from our, and others mistakes,  … and c/ we need to know who was wrong so we can learn! 

All very true but remember that there are some who never make a mistake and then there are those who are never wrong. There are also those who will never learn so really you can’t win! 

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14 minutes ago, vanessan said:

All very true but remember that there are some who never make a mistake and then there are those who are never wrong. There are also those who will never learn so really you can’t win! 

Yes, but for those of us who either always make mistakes, always wrong or are always learning, this thread is interesting, valuable and instructive.

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1 hour ago, MauriceMynah said:

Yes, but for those of us who either always make mistakes, always wrong or are always learning, this thread is interesting, valuable and instructive.

I’m one of those you mention (all three actually!) so I entirely agree with you. Trouble is I sometimes have difficulty remembering instructions when they are given, particularly if they are a bit confusing anyway. I suppose I am a bit like Mr Spock (not the ears I hasten to add) in that I am happier when things seem logical and so often they aren’t. I bet I’m not alone there. :default_gbxhmm:

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So come on MM, what did you really learn from all of that??? I have been pottering around the Broads for years in motor boats and often sailing boats, and not once have I ever considered in any situation that I was either the stand on boat, or even the stand off boat!! Neither, for what its worth, do I suspect that many others have.

What I do know, is when in doubt slow down and pass behind the other boat with a cheery wave!

 

 

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1 hour ago, marshman said:

So come on MM, what did you really learn from all of that???

I have learned that the regs are not as clear cut as I would have expected, and that they are written in such a way as to require a solicitor to sort them out in the event of an insurance claim.

I have learned that you take the same chilled attitude to meeting other boats that I do.

and I have learned that sometimes peoples contributions to a discussion, however well meant, might be thought of as "Squit" by those who know best... but then again, I'm still learning. :-)

I have never shouted at anybody on the roads or rivers, however tempted, though I have been shouted at, something I found personally rather distressing.

This thread, in my opinion still has something to offer to those who wish, as I do, to continue reading it, but I bow to your superior knowledge and experience in the certain knowledge you have much you could teach us all.

That's what I've learned.  :default_beerchug:  

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8 hours ago, MauriceMynah said:

No it doesn't. Think on Griff's point about boats coming out of the River Ant. 16 implies that boats coming down the River Bure have to give way to them.

In fact, I am of the opinion that all the Col Regs AND the Broads regs do, is confuse the issue.   and really that's why this thread was started!

19 would come first, that gives boats on the Bure, right of way. 

16,17,18 only then come into play as the boat from the other Dyke or river has failed to observe that rule and caused a possible collision.  Rule 16 then comes into place in avoiding  that collision. 

 

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13 hours ago, TheQ said:

19 would come first, that gives boats on the Bure, right of way. 

16,17,18 only then come into play as the boat from the other Dyke or river has failed to observe that rule and caused a possible collision.  Rule 16 then comes into place in avoiding  that collision. 

 

So, are you  saying that according to the Broads regs, the boat on the Bure had right of way over the boat on the Thurne?

I rather think that most here thought that would be the case. All the business about giving way to boats coming from the starboard just fogs the issue, given that there is no defined line dictating when a boat has come onto the Bure or is still on the Thurne.

The fact remains (ok, my opinion remains) that given the nature of the broads, the regs have been presented in the wrong order, are full of "notwithstanding"s, and are designed to ensure that wherever possible, nobody can be held responsible for anything.

They are a fine example of the work of Sir Humphrey Appleby. 

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