Too Sensible By Half

[MauriceMynah]

Golly gosh, the Mynah's going to post something sensible !

A friend of mine asked one of the rangers if it would be possible to put a 3mph limit at the start of the 24hr moorings at Sutton Staithe.

He was told that this would require an act of Parliament. 

This strikes me as a little odd, but have no idea how to verify it, and even if it did, would it not still be a worthwhile thing to do.

However, and I'm probably mistaken here, I have it at the back of my mind that a 3mph limit used to exist here some years ago. Can anyone verify that?

I agree that enforcement might be tricky  and I do see the irony of telling some people off for not moving then having another go at them for moving too fast, but that's another thing. 

Dear reader, what think you ?

[ExSurveyor]

Maybe speed humps might work

[grendel]

or make the river narrower and plant a little garden on the side where they have narrowed it?

[NeilB]

I'd like the same 3mph on entering Stalham, often being bounced around and often by local private boats.

Whether it would work or not I don't know!

[Meantime]

39 minutes ago, MauriceMynah said:

Golly gosh, the Mynah's going to post something sensible !

A friend of mine asked one of the rangers if it would be possible to put a 3mph limit at the start of the 24hr moorings at Sutton Staithe.

He was told that this would require an act of Parliament. 

This strikes me as a little odd, but have no idea how to verify it, and even if it did, would it not still be a worthwhile thing to do.

However, and I'm probably mistaken here, I have it at the back of my mind that a 3mph limit used to exist here some years ago. Can anyone verify that?

I agree that enforcement might be tricky  and I do see the irony of telling some people off for not moving then having another go at them for moving too fast, but that's another thing. 

Dear reader, what think you ?

Speed limits are covered by the 1992 byelaws attached. Page 17 defines the speed limits for the river Ant and I cannot see anything regarding Sutton Staithe being 3mph, so by default it would be 4mph. However as well as speed limits reasonable care and wash also applies so if you're too close to another boat or in danger of hitting another boat then 3mph is too fast!

As far as I'm aware modifying the byelaws or creating new byelaws does not need an act of Parliament. It needs the Authority concerned to draft the amendment and then place them before the relevant Secretary of State who has 30 days to respond.

I would have thought it could be handled under the Byelaws (Alternative Procedure) (England Regulations 2016)

The first step would be to canvass the Broads Authority and show there is a need for a change. If enough people contacted them and they felt a change was warranted then they could initiate the process culminating in approval from the Secretary of State.

This all probably means that in reality it won't happen unless a number of serious incidents are reported which are a result of people going through there too fast.

Speed_Limit_Byelaws1992.pdf

[Smoggy]

If you are being bounced around I'd say they are over 4mph anyway, I Don't have the best hull shape but at 4mph there's sod all wash to bounce anyone about.

Small dinghies are another matter at 4mph.

[Jbx5]

I’m sure there was a 3mph sign at the end around 2006 when we had a cottage and day boat at Sutton Staithe.

John 

[CambridgeCabby]

This is like the numerous 20mph limits now in most Cambridge villages , a few years ago local councils were given powers to lower a 30mph to a 20mph limit if they felt it were warranted ; stupidly though they didn’t give the same local councils the power to reinstate a 30mph limit if the 20mph was proven to be problematic for this they would indeed need an act of parliament , “you couldn’t make it up!!”

[CambridgeCabby]

In response to lowering the limit to 3mph at Sutton , all they need is to follow a strange mellow green boat which fires only on three cylinders and emits the aroma of fish and chips from its bio diesel propulsion , worked for me in the past 

[Bikertov]

4 hours ago, ExSurveyor said:

Maybe speed humps might work

Isn't there allegedly one of those on the lower reaches of the Bure ?

[grendel]

1 hour ago, Bikertov said:

Isn't there allegedly one of those on the lower reaches of the Bure ?

one certainly slowed me down a bit on one corner, and I was two boat widths from the bank.

[PCL023]

How about a “SPEED: dead slow beyond this point” sign? That gets around the speed limits issue. No one really knows what 3mph or any other speed really is on a boat anyway, as it is just not relative to some, the ones that get it right check their wash, the minority just don’t care and nothing will reach them anyway, unless you get you own back a pour your dinner over them to see how they like it. Instead of speed limits, wash hight 🌊 signs would probably be more effective or both? 

kind regards 

Paul 

 

[MargeandParge]

It will cost all and sundry a tenner to moor there as they will need volunteers to police it. I would like to see them approach some of the skippers that  moor and use those facilities. 

Kindest Regards Marge and Parge 

[YnysMon]

6 minutes ago, MargeandParge said:

It will cost all and sundry a tenner to moor there as they will need volunteers to police it. I would like to see them approach some of the skippers that  moor and use those facilities. 

Kindest Regards Marge and Parge 

Don’t give ‘them’ ideas! 

[rightsaidfred]

There are already 3mph stretches at Belaugh and Dilham so dont know why it would require any special measures.

Fred 

[Meantime]

30 minutes ago, rightsaidfred said:

There are already 3mph stretches at Belaugh and Dilham so dont know why it would require any special measures.

Fred 

Because those two areas are already covered by the Speed Limit Byelaws. Sutton Staithe is in a 4mph area and would need a change of the byelaws if the speed limit is to be changed.

Under the section for River Ant. Dilham Dyke from Brick Kiln Bridge to its confluence with the River Ant. 3mph, that covers Dilham.

Belaugh is not up the Ant, but on the Bure, however from 229 metres (250 yards) upstream to 229 metres (250 yards) downstream of Belaugh Staithe 3mph.

Again on the Bure Coltishall - from Horstead Mill to 914 metres (1000 yards) downstream of the Rising Sun public house and from Coltishall Lock to the confluence of the Lock Cut with the River Bure 3mph.

[MargeandParge]

Only a thought but in those locations I think the residents do their own monitoring. 

Kindest Regards Marge and Parge 

[Smoggy]

Loddon has a 3mph stretch between pyes Mill and the staith,  I don't think I ever get down to it at idle but no one has ever given me a second glance just friendly waves (no not shaking fists) as there's barely a ripple,  I'm convinced 4mph is adequate and the problem boats are well over that.

[Wussername]

How one expects a holiday skipper or indeed a private skipper to be able to differentiate between 3mp and 4mph escapes me. What a nonsense.

[MauriceMynah]

Some interesting points made, thank you. One thing I would mention is that in those conditions, it's not the wash as such, it is the action of several tons of boat moving in  a highly limited amount of water. This causes the moored boats to move backwards and forwards rather than up and down.

The suggestion of a sign saying "dead slow please" strikes me as a good one, probably better than a 3mph speed limit.

I wonder if the sign at Irsted works. I certainly comply as I suspect do most of you.

[Vaughan]

4 hours ago, MauriceMynah said:

it is the action of several tons of boat moving in  a highly limited amount of water. This causes the moored boats to move backwards and forwards rather than up and down.

This is called squat effect and has nothing to do with a speed limit.  It is caused because the dyke has become far too shallow and will almost disappear if they ever get around to dredging it.

9 hours ago, Wussername said:

How one expects a holiday skipper or indeed a private skipper to be able to differentiate between 3mp and 4mph escapes me. What a nonsense.

I agree and I think speed limits on the Ant in general are too low.  There are many occasions when I have found the need to actually come into neutral and drift, almost half the time, in order to stay behind someone dribbling along at what they think is 4MPH.  That's fine for me but to expect new customers out from Richo's in one of their big boats, to be able to control it in neutral, in a cross wind, when coming into a narrow, dead end mooring dyke, is asking too much.

And in my opinion, for nothing achieved except more damage.

[Mouldy]

2 hours ago, Vaughan said:

I agree and I think speed limits on the Ant in general are too low.  There are many occasions when I have found the need to actually come into neutral and drift, almost half the time, in order to stay behind someone dribbling along at what they think is 4MPH.  That's fine for me but to expect new customers out from Richo's in one of their big boats, to be able to control it in neutral, in a cross wind, when coming into a narrow, dead end mooring dyke, is asking too much. . . . . . . . . . 

I suspect that to many people, both hirers and owners, speed limits are only there as a guide, much the same as on our roads.  A small percentage have no regard for them whatsoever, some folk know they’re there but think that adding an extra 10% (or so) won’t matter, some conscientiously control their speed using an app on their phone and some have no idea and potter about at whatever speed they feel appropriate.

Do we honestly think that imposing a speed limit on a short stretch of river, when so many craft are not even fitted with a GPS speedo, just a guide stuck to the dash using Dymo tape (remember them?) based on engine revs, will have any effect whatsoever?

 

[Meantime]

I think the speed limit itself is somewhat irrelevant, it is the change in speed limit downwards that attracts your attention. When travelling up to Coltishall I see the 3mph sign at Belaugh and adjust my speed down to the point where drive is just about engaged. I see the change in speed limits as more of a reminder to slow down, than to actually try doing 3mph. On leaving Coltishall if it has been raining heavily and the current is ebbing then it is impossible for me to do 3mph through belaugh with drive just engaged.

Going back to what actually started this thread, Sutton Staithe I rarely go thru there with drive constantly engaged, it feels too fast and too close to the other boats. I enter just on tick over and depending on how many boats are already moored will knock it into neutral and back into drive as needed.

Commonsense says that you just need to be careful, you don't need a speed limit sign. Lets be honest the dyke up to Neatishead is 3mph, but who would attempt to get into  and down the length of the mooring at Neatishead at 3mph. It's just not possible if its busy, yet we don't ask for a 2mph sign there.

[Vaughan]

18 minutes ago, Meantime said:

I enter just on tick over and depending on how many boats are already moored will knock it into neutral and back into drive as needed.

Perhaps you would like to try teaching that to the first time hirers of one of Richo's new "Admiral Benbow" class aircraft carriers, on their first attempt at a solo mooring since leaving the yard at Stalham.

Incidentally, my boat does 4MPH at 1400 revs, checked on the measured quarter mile above Horning.  No, I was not affected by the tide as I did two runs, one each way, and took the average.

Going back to squat effect, it follows that a boat at 1400revs on Barton will be going slower at the same revs, when it gets into the shallow narrow waters of the lower Ant. 

edited to add : 4MPH is known as a brisk walking pace.  So if you are going down the Ant and get overtaken by someone walking their dog on the rhond, you are going too slowly!

Edited June 24, 2023 by Vaughan
line added

[Meantime]

2 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

Perhaps you would like to try teaching that to the first time hirers of one of Richo's new "Admiral Benbow" class aircraft carriers, on their first attempt at a solo mooring since leaving the yard at Stalham.

At the risk of stating the obvious, why should I, that's the hire yards job to teach the hirers to be respectful of the boat they've hired and other peoples property. If 4 or 3mph seems to fast, or your too close to another boat then slow down!!!!! It is largely plain commonsense.

If you see people walking across the old bridge at Potter do you stick to the speed limit or do you slow down and be prepared to stop! It's the same principle!