Broads Future

[Roy]

I’m reading through everyone’s holiday posts and the thing that I keep thinking is what will be broads be like in 40 years time already boats are struggling to reach coltishall and impossible to pass ph bridge unless you are in a day boat or a Martham boat. 
 

I’ve also been looking at the Broadland memories site at all the old pictures I wondered if anyone who had a holiday in the 60 s on the broads would have thought passing  under wroxham bridge would be tricky 

Roy 

[MauriceMynah]

No. Only Potter heigham bridge was the northern rivers tricky one, and back in the 60s you didn't have to have a pilot.

My first holiday on the Broads was 1965. I still remember it quite well. I was 11 and most of my efforts went into fishing.

Many things have changed, some good, some not.

[CambridgeCabby]

You also have to remember that the air draught on the majority of hire boats is higher compared to the 60’s .

B.A. proved on her last outing that Wroxham bridge is “doable” with the correctly designed boat , that said Potter Heigham seems to thwart even the best designed boats nowadays 

[rightsaidfred]

Wroxham Bridge wasn`t a problem most of the time for boats with  a 7`0" airdraft just a few years back let alone the 1960s, unlike Potter Heigham the problem at Wroxham is fairly recent but becoming a progressive issue year on year.

Fred  

[dom]

Wroxham bridge has always been tricky, but largely because of the shape of the arch and the fact it's angled slightly towards the Wroxham side heading downstream. I can remember sitting in the Bridge Restaurant in the very early 1980s watching a couple who'd managed to get the approach wrong and jammed themselves in slightly sideways. When they finally managed to free themselves, they somehow managed to spin the bow around in such a way that it went straight through the big, plate glass window between the restaurant and its kitchen - which as a kid I found highly amusing, but which was probably pretty dangerous for those sitting nearby who got showered in broken glass. The bridge becoming inaccessible to traditional height boats due to low air draft is a different issue though and one which appears to be getting much worse fairly quickly.

1 hour ago, CambridgeCabby said:

You also have to remember that the air draught on the majority of hire boats is higher compared to the 60’s .

Wroxham has been around 6' for part of this week, which causes a problem for the majority of Broads boats. Offhand, I think spring tides were last week, so possibly worse then. It should be nearer 7'3" (probably 7' on the "new" gauge). Something is making a big difference and rain levels have eased, so water recession is clearly being hindered somehow.

Issues with dredging, moorings, quay headings, etc have always been a feature in documents and tales relating to the Broads - but BA was in part introduced to address these. The fact that, if anything, the issues seem to be getting worse is a major concern and just goes to show the manner in which all too often public sector organisations just become bloated cash vacuums. I think if the Broads as we know them are to survive, there needs to be a concerted effort to put pressure on BA to fund works, and to highlight and put them under scrutiny when they fail to carry them out. A private sector business would fail if it lacked the funds to meet its demands. We need to try and put the BA into a similar light and to highlight every time they fail. I'm not sure anyone's doing this particularly effectively at the moment.

[Mouldy]

19 minutes ago, dom said:

 A private sector business would fail if it lacked the funds to meet its demands. We need to try and put the BA into a similar light and to highlight every time they fail. I'm not sure anyone's doing this particularly effectively at the moment.

Hmmm.  Like a certain Water Authority, recently in the news, who are pleading for a 40% increase in charges to their customers to put right the neglect of an antiquated system that is no longer fit for purpose, whilst paying dividends to shareholders and inflated bonuses to their directors?

 Not all private companies are run properly, sadly and it does seem to me that the way the BA is going currently, emulates the path of the aforementioned water authority.  We are already more than half way to a 40% increase in tolls inflicted over the past two years and no guarantee that we won’t be subject to more bending over with our trousers down next April.

What is needed is an authority answerable to their stakeholders, who are prepared to respond to issues and not hide behind the Notional Park ideal.

[dom]

30 minutes ago, Mouldy said:

What is needed is an authority answerable to their stakeholders, who are prepared to respond to issues and not hide behind the Notional Park ideal.

Personally, I think the best proposal for resolving this to date is NSBA's attempt to raise funds to hire a King's Counsel to review how BA is operating. Annual membership of NSBA only costs a tenner. I'd urge people to consider joining (even if also supporting BRAG) to try and help support this.

I suspect a King's Counsel would find that the Norfolk and Suffolk Broads Act and the Broads Authority Act actually provide a perfectly reasonable structure for managment. My view is that the original intent of these was that the authority would manage by committee, with the chief executive simply filling a legally required position, to enact the desired actions decided by the various committees. The problem seems to be almost exclusively that Dr.Packman has decided he holds ultimate control, but doesn't appear to have the commercial acumen to manage finances and the organisation efficiently. I think it probably needs someone at the highest possible legal level to state this in order for things to start changing.

[BroadAmbition]

What would be the cost of a Kings Counsel to look into this?

Griff

[dom]

When I get a reply to an email later, I'll try and find out for you. I want to try and find out more anyway, as I get the impression NSBA aren't blessed in terms of technology, so it's an area where those of us more savvy might be able to help out with a crowdfunding effort.

[marshman]

You should be  members - its all been in their newsletters and in their blogs.

[rightsaidfred]

55 minutes ago, BroadAmbition said:

What would be the cost of a Kings Counsel to look into this?

Griff

They are trying to raise 10K

Fred

[dom]

2 hours ago, rightsaidfred said:

They are trying to raise 10K

Tenner from each BRAG member would equate to £14k.

[marshman]

Trouble is, the opinion of a KC is just that - an opinion! Another KC, or barrister may, and indeed often does, give a differing view and if the BA went to the trouble of doing the same thing, with that money coming out of the toll account, it would still be just that - an opinion!

Ok they can carry some weight, but then what? Its not binding on anyone, least of all the BA and to my, perhaps illogical thinking, it doesn't really take the case much further forward.

[ChrisB]

3 hours ago, BroadAmbition said:

What would be the cost of a Kings Counsel to look into this?

Griff

I had to use a specialist QC back in 87. Back then I calculated about £750 per hour. For advice. Then of course you have the risk, should you take it further of having the other party costs awarded against you. The desire for litigation is a great way to go skint.

[dom]

I think it's potentially a bit different in this case, as it's not necessarily Entity A vs Entity B.

It could well be a QC expressing an indepedent legal opinion which gets taken to parliament by an MP. I suspect in that case, it'd carry a lot of weight.

[Wussername]

14 minutes ago, dom said:

I think it's potentially a bit different in this case, as it's not necessarily Entity A vs Entity B.

It could well be a QC expressing an indepedent legal opinion which gets taken to parliament by an MP. I suspect in that case, it'd carry a lot of weight.

Dream on Dom. I do not fear our legal system. I just feel insecure. Surely you have reservations. 

However wish you well.

[Tempest]

8 minutes ago, Wussername said:

Dream on Dom. I do not fear our legal system. I just feel insecure. Surely you have reservations. 

However wish you well.

I have worked in our legal system for over 30 years and can say categorically that it is broken!

It is now focused solely on money and has NOTHING to do with justice

If justice was the case all courts would be a forum for TRUTH

But sadly they are just a vehicle for the judicial system to eeek out as many funds from the system as possible

Mr Bates and the Post Office is a fine example and just the tip of the iceberg of the priorities of the judicial system in the UK

Over £40 million initially awarded with very little for the victims!

TRUTH and JUSTICE are irrelevant to the majority in this broken system!

 

[Wussername]

5 minutes ago, Tempest said:

I have worked in our legal system for over 30 years and can say categorically that it is broken!

It is now focused solely on money and has NOTHING to do with justice

If justice was the case all courts would be a forum for TRUTH

But sadly they are just a vehicle for the judicial system to eeek out as many funds from the system as possible

Mr Bates and the Post Office is a fine example and just the tip of the iceberg of the priorities of the judicial system in the UK⁸

Over £40 million initially awarded with very little for the victims!

TRUTH and JUSTICE are irrelevant to the majority in this broken system!

 

I felt somewhat vunerable with regard to making my opinion. 

However, a wonderful post.which i endorse without reservation.

[rightsaidfred]

As I understand it the intention is not about litigation,  more a sound argument based on legal definition regarding the misuse/ misappropriation of navigation funds and the failings of the members to properly oversee and control the excesses of the executive, this would then be presented to the authorities (DEFRA).

I stress this is my interpretation of the appeal for funding not a verbatim account of the NSBA presentation.

Fred

[Wussername]

45 minutes ago, rightsaidfred said:

As I understand it the intention is not about litigation,  more a sound argument based on legal definition regarding the misuse/ misappropriation of navigation funds and the failings of the members to properly oversee and control the excesses of the executive, this would then be presented to the authorities (DEFRA).

I stress this is my interpretation of the appeal for funding not a verbatim account of the NSBA presentation.

Fred

Nevertheless an opinion, many have fallen on that belief.

[BuffaloBill]

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On 03/04/2024 at 10:50, MauriceMynah said:

No. Only Potter Heigham bridge was the northern rivers tricky one, and back in the 60s you didn't have to have a pilot.

 

Back in the sixties, there was a height gauge just inside Herbert Woods entrance which you swung out and could check for yourself if it would pass under the bridge.

This was us on September Dawn in '66 (from Dawncraft Wroxham). The gauge is the wooden post on the right of the photo which when swung out, was a bit like a 'hanging scaffold' which you could then pull your boat along with ropes to check the clearance. As Maurice said, no pilot in those days but there usually was more clearance.

 

[Bikertov]

2 hours ago, BuffaloBill said:

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Back in the sixties, there was a height gauge just inside Herbert Woods entrance which you swung out and could check for yourself if it would pass under the bridge.

This was us on September Dawn in '66 (from Dawncraft Wroxham). The gauge is the wooden post on the right of the photo which when swung out, was a bit like a 'hanging scaffold' which you could then pull your boat along with ropes to check the clearance. As Maurice said, no pilot in those days but there usually was more clearance.

 

So in other words a "loading gauge", as used on railways etc ?

[PaulN]

On 03/04/2024 at 12:40, dom said:

I think spring tides were last week, so possibly worse then. It should be nearer 7'3" (probably 7' on the "new" gauge). Something is making a big difference and rain levels have eased, so water recession is clearly being hindered somehow.

 

Spring tides should give a better air draft clearance, they produce the lowest low tides.

There is no doubt in my mind that the clearance under Wroxham is getting worse year on year. Our air draft is only 6'2" and we are getting more and more limited.

[Smoggy]

32 minutes ago, Bikertov said:

So in other words a "loading gauge", as used on railways etc ?

More like a "didyoutwatyourheadornotometer".

[dom]

8 minutes ago, PaulN said:

Spring tides should give a better air draft clearance, they produce the lowest low tides.

They give the largest tidal range, but the larger spring drop is coming at a time when average levels are remaining high, so it's not translating into a meaningful increase in air draft. I've yet to see much over 6'3" on the "new" gauge, which is nearly a foot off what a normal spring should look like. The more time passes, the more it feels like something is restricting the ebb.

The opposite is however happening - higher spring tidal flow on top of record levels seems to be resulting in ever lower clearance.