Independence - Updates | Maintenance & Care

[Guest]

30 minutes ago, LondonRascal said:

Just a note on extinguishers: I have two fire blankets in the Galley and 4 powder fire extinguishers in the accommodation areas but I think it would be nice to have one in the saloon, and area between the forward and twin cabin. I have fitted two smoke alarms and a CO alarm.

I have been on a boat when it began to spew smoke out from under the floor - and at the time I did not know what was causing it but smelt electrical, my first instinct was not fire extinguisher but turn on the camera and then get the boat moored up and find out what was causing it, all was ok then but if it had suddenly ignited I dont think I would have just let it burn without giving things at least a go at putting out the fire I like to think that while that was going on you would have the sense to know when enough was enough.

That sounds to me like an electrical fire and given that GRP is likely very close to the said over heating cables / components etc , if you have ever seen just how fast a GRP boat can go up then I doubt very much you'd be doing anything with a camera , fight the fire if its safe to do so but opening hatch's can make things a whole lot worse , the object of the exercise is to moor if possible but prepare to abandon ship if the situation escalates there is no place in a situation of any form of fire on a boat for filming anything , video it if you must  but bear in mind it might just be the last video make .

[Polly]

Our first boat had the cooker right next to the cabin entrance and no forward hatch. I wouldn't turn it on unless everyone was in the cockpit! It really was a dreadful place for it to be.

[LondonRascal]

" That sounds to me like an electrical fire and given that GRP is likely very close to the said over heating cables / components etc , if you have ever seen just how fast a GRP boat can go up then I doubt very much you'd be doing anything with a camera..."

Ahh, but that is just what I did...

Just as I was cruising past 'Ranworth Island' there was this terrible burning smell, initial reaction hit record on camera and leave it rolling. I first thought it was a passing boat but seconds later released it was indeed my boat. I quickly checked the obvious - was it the hob or oven - even the fridge compressor? No. The engine was running perfectly fine and there was no warning lights but the smell was not that of a mechanical/rubbery/oily smell it was a deeper plasticy or resin burning smell.

Then smoke began to come into the saloon, low level creeping along the floor coming in through cracks and ventilation holes - despite being told since how bad a move it was, I lifted by a couple of inches the engine cover which was in the saloon but despite a lot of smoke it did not seem that it could be the engine. The smoke grew more and the smell too - really unpleasant so with heart racing, adrenaline pumping I had to moor the boat. Despite it all, I still did things as should for some odd reason I did not want to speed too much to the shore, and I stern moored the boat - which was all done rather rapidly and in a cross wind.  A chap was on the shore and gave a hand and you hear me say "I have a problem with the boat" and he is replying about the wind blowing the boat.

Engine off, I lift up the hatch which is outside the accommodation and where the fuel tank and batteries are - smoke now pours out - but it does not smell like batteries overheating, but being electrical I want to isolate everything I can but I was not told and cannot see where the battery idolators are so in a bit of a panic I close the trip switches for all the 12v loads at the helm (I later found the idolators for the batteries under the hatch just next to the batteries). Clearly something serious had happened, insulation melted off of wires leaving them bare - it was the Victon Energy Argo FET that had gone - spectacularly. It is designed to isolate charge to where it is needed from one Alternator and you do not connect the actual batteries together, they go to the unit instead.  Equally, if you run down your domestic bank it will prevent you also running your engine cranking battery flat too. It is a bit more fancy that a diode based idolator in so far as it has virtually no voltage loss.  Somehow it had diverted the high amperage output from the Alternator not down the large gauge battery wires but down a far small gauge wire which had soon overheated, melted off its installation and then created a dead short on the unit which in turn had 'exploded' bending the mental of the unit and melting the potting compound inside which then oozed out. It also knocked out the expensive Victron inverter since current was able to flow down cables connected to it 'the wrong way' so I was only able to have 240v when connected to shore power.

I am pretty sure that had I kept going much longer with the engine running supplying all this 'fuel' in so far as amps to continue heating all these cables what was melting and smouldering would have finally ignited. It did not, but it took a good 24hrs for the smell of the smoke to subside inside the boat. Despite it all, I never felt like jumping off the boat or once moored rushing away from it - neither did I feel the need to immateriality grab a fire extinguisher.

[Hockham Admiral]

20 hours ago, SueH said:

Going slightly off topic.

Hi Jay.  Many years ago when I was in the WRAF we used to have a small red extinguisher used solely for electrical fires which was 'abolished' under 'Elf & Safety'  For the life of me I can't remember what it was called.  Any ideas?

Sue

Sue, Hi. I first came across these as avery young AEO on Vulcan Mk1's.

They were BCF... Bromochlorodifluoromethane... I had to learn to spell that for the safety exam! (Also known by the trade name Halon 1211, or BCF, or Halon 1211 BCF, or Freon 12B1, is a haloalkane with the chemical formula CF2ClBr).

[Hockham Admiral]

Robin hi and what an excellent quality new video system you have!     

Did you all discuss that sudden drastic heel you mentioned at 25 mins 45 secs and what was the assumed reason, please?

I experienced just such a happening crossing the Alderney Race in full flood many years ago but in a 30 ft sailing boat you tend to have everything lashed down!

[Vaughan]

Jayfire, among others, will know what I mean by the "triangle of fire". This means that a fire has to have three elements: 

Fuel, oxygen and heat.

If you have these three in the right proportions, you have a fire. If you remove any one of them, you will put the fire out. It is then a question of deciding which element is the best one to attack.

The big difference with modern products such as Halon and dry powder is that they also attack the fire chemically, by knocking down the flames. On helicopter  fire fighting courses I have seen how you can wave a dry powder extinguisher in front of you and walk right through a fire. The flames will come back in a few seconds but it gives you time to get to the door and get out.

So for me, I like to see a dry powder extinguisher on a boat, preferably in each cabin.

[LondonRascal]

42 minutes ago, Hockham Admiral said:

Did you all discuss that sudden drastic heel you mentioned at 25 mins 45 secs and what was the assumed reason, please?

So what happened was...We had come out of the worse of the Race - and indeed were making our turn to port (to heard towards Weymouth Bay) and things were calming, when all of a sudden a rather large rouge wave caught us beam on and and flung the boat right over. At the time this was pretty alarming because it just kept on going over, then paused and went back the other way and carried on.

Before I bought the boat I had read numerous people who owned these boats how bad they roll in beam seas, even slight ones. I had also been told I should invest in stabilizers to stop this being so apparent - especialyl because of the additional weight loading I have up top of the sun deck. However, such a system would cost north of £70,000 to have  and nobody could tell me it was 'safety critical' but 'comfort related'. Just because she is rate RCD A 'Ocean' does not mean she has been tested in such conditions but might 'meet the criteria' but delivery trip proved even if the crew were thoroughly worn out and tossed about, the boat took all that nature gave and came out the other side with remarkable little issues to put right. She is a sturdy, safe boat but there are some very bad design issues like having a sliding window that has a 240v socket situated beneath it and a bilge pump where the float switch is higher than the bilge pump base.

Right after this had happened (Simon was on the helm) I went over to him  and noticed that the aft and engine room bilges pumps were active and a quick open up of the engine room door showed a bunch of water ion the central bilge area (which was soon pumped overboard) which meant the list into the swell on our port side was enough to have caused water to flow up and into the air intake vents on the side of the hull, come down behind the fuel tank and enter the bilge area.

Fast forward to when she was heading to Great Yarmouth from Dover, the north easterly and swell on her starboard board moved as she crossed the Thames Estuary and continued on her journey to an easterly with the swell adn waves right on her starboard beam. Charlie reported "You know that rouge wave when we were coming round Portland Bill - well, we have been having moments like that every few minutes" this continued hour after hour which is why it was so wearing on the crews legs. As far as the boat went however - well the fact she took that hour after hour says it all.

I had a lot of cleaning up to do in the engine room with salt water in some areas which do not readily drain into the bilge and certain areas covered with salt marks - I have got a wet vac on order now to make all this easy to suck out in future and also make short work of carpet cleaning.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, LondonRascal said:

Ahh, but that is just what I did...

I'm well aware of what you did Robin but what's bothering me is you seam to believe that its the correct cause of action , in a boat fire which you had no idea of how bad it was , time is of the essence and the object exercise is to get everyone off the boat including yourself as quickly as posable .

, nothing else just that .

Anything other than that puts yourself and others in danger , had that fire spread you could have easily found yourself in s position where the only option left is to abandon ship regardless of where you are in the river , that leave's a boat on fire wandering about and is a danger to all in the vicinity , besides if you have to enter the water how are you going to keep your phone dry so you can alert the emergency services ? .

I hope I'm making my point clear here in that a camera is not the correct course of action in those circumstances .

[Hockham Admiral]

Words literally fail me, Robin......... your crew choices must certainly have had "Bravery" and "Determination" near the top of the list of qualifications. In our 7 ton long keeled yacht with 3.5 tons of encapsulated pig iron in the keel I wouldn't have fancied that journey of theirs.

We had an angle-meter on the bulkhead, which is probably not a good idea for you, and the worst we ever saw was coming out of Scheveningen with a strong tide against wind just outside the harbour wall.... we reached 60 degrees and didn't like it too much. 

[LondonRascal]

I don't want to go on over fires and extinguishers, but at the end of the day I was on my own and did what I did and it has been talked about at length at the time. People can say that lifting the engine hatch was a terrible move, for if there was flames there the in-rush of oxygen would have fueled the fire even more. I had nobody else on the boat with me, I was not close to others at the time (open water) and elected to more at the island to asses things not leap off and run.

I might have changed my plan if there was visible flames, or a lot more smoke - but the type of smoke and smell told me a lot about what may be going on. I have seen boats on fire and how rapidly the resin in the GRP layup fuels such fires but even so you've still got time to make a choice - grab a life jacket say, take your phone with you to call for help. But I was not in that position. It of course was a big worry at the time - water coming into a boat you have time to see - how much is it, where does it look like it is coming from, but smoke and fire on a boat makes you feel much more vulnerable until you are able to get to dry land.

I think this is another good example where I was ok with myself at the time and would not change anything if it happened again I get what rules are about and 'best practice' but in the situation as it unfolds you do what you do and I did what I did and was pleased I recorded it.

 

 

[grendel]

Robin - Re fire blankets, I seem to recall that Griff at Dover found the fire blanket had popped out of its housing in the galley due to the weather, he did put it back in, but you might want to check it is in with the two straps dangling down, or it might not pass the BSS, if the dangly bits are not dangling as they ought.

[Polly]

I hear you Robin, but for all that, Jay has to face up to these situations and outcomes daily, he is giving hard won advice as I am sure we all appreciate.

[Gracie]

I agree Polly, Jay has been through and seen things a lot of us wouldn't be able to cope with and couldn't possibly imagine, we should all take notice and appreciate the advice

Grace

[ExSurveyor]

Unfortunately,  even with the best training,  the general public will be guaranteed to forget everything we know and not follow best practice.

I did smile that Robins first reaction was to hit record.

 

[Siddy]

From a early video doesn't the engine room have a fire system, I thought I saw the large red tank and the smaller pressure cyl which sets it off. Looked the same and what we use in comms rooms to remove oxygen. Better than the 180 bar cylinders we used to have.

Could also put in a dead weight fire wire system, fusible links over the engines so around 70c the link melts and shuts the fuel valve off via the weight stopping flow to the engines. Then again on a boat with dual helm you'd be up top flat out to shore. Not silly prices.

 

[Meantime]

Robin,

I see elsewhere (where I'm not a member) that you mention installing sockets that can monitor temperatures and turn equipment on and off etc. Do you have a link to them please? I have been doing some research myself and found a company in Finland that make a product called iSocket, but would be interested in others for comparison.

Good luck with the test on Monday. Hope it passes, or at least any rectification is minor.

 

[KaptinKev]

On ‎12‎/‎02‎/‎2018 at 01:02, BroadAmbition said:

So to the doom mongers and those so badly hurt because Robin did it his way and ignored their advice he never asked for (Mainly over on the YBW) I have a grown up response

Griff

 

 

 

 

So from one fellow tradesman to another, I do have a lot of respect for you, as I have heard how you are good at your respected trade and seen what a good job you do of BA, but I think you might be missing a little thing from your post!

If Robin wasn't up to adverse advice or criticism, he wouldn't have gone the youtube route. I do tend to think Robin likes the attention he gets from his adventures on the seas and the Norfolk Broads and if he wants to make his boat adventures open to all, he will have to take the rough with the smooth.

[BroadAmbition]

Hi KaptinKev,  thanks for the complements re respected trade, though in my line of work, one is only as good as the last job I did!

he will have to take the rough with the smooth.

Agreed, he does too

Griff

[FairTmiddlin]

I think Griff was alluding to the people who, when Robin said he was taking her to the Broads by sea. The Ybw had a lot of sucking of teeth and shouting, that OOh they pitch and roll and you should dig deep into your pockets and have stabilisers fitted.

[BroadAmbition]

Thanks FTM - Spot on

Griff

[Guest]

2 hours ago, FairTmiddlin said:

I think Griff was alluding to the people who, when Robin said he was taking her to the Broads by sea. The Ybw had a lot of sucking of teeth and shouting, that OOh they pitch and roll and you should dig deep into your pockets and have stabilisers fitted.

I think that  someone needs to read the thread , it was stabs were suggested but not one person said they were essential  ,  not too too much in the way of sucking of teeth either but more of alot of people actually wishing well and a safe trip , if you read the thread entirely you can see this over and over again ,   remember a lot of the membership on there go a lot further and have vastly more experience , OK there were some that thought different but they are in no way in the majority as is being proclaimed , one or two posters does not constitute a majority and should anyone wish to read it is is in a public section of the said forum and there's no need to become a member to so .

There are a few extra details on there too that have not been on this forum in regards to the trip etc  as I found out only this morning .

[Stuart]

Hi Rob,

I've posted two replies to your query about water pressure in the galley, here and on YBW, but not sure either of them reached you. In any case, please ignore them because I've now downloaded the schematics of your boat and see that the plumbing system is very different from the standard Trader layout. On the standard layout, which my boat has, the galley outlets are much closer to the freshwater pump whereas yours are at the end of the circuit. Diagram of mine hopefully attached. My Jabsco ParMax 4 pump cuts in at 20psi and cuts out at 40psi and there are no pressure problems, even at the end of the circuit which, in our case, is the stern cabin washroom. Provided the pump is a high pressure type and all the valves are open the only other issue could be a blockage. Does the loss of pressure apply to both hot and cold taps?

All the best, and well done so far!

Stuart

Trader 535 - Plumbing System.pdf

[ranworthbreeze]

Hello Stuart,

Welcome to the forum.

Regards

Alan

[Hockham Admiral]

Welcome to the NBN, Stuart. Good to have you onboard.  

[riyadhcrew]

aboard Stuart. Enjoy.