Another Incident At Grt Yarmouth I'm Afraid.

[RealWindmill]

1 minute ago, JennyMorgan said:

Whilst a few might be put off I am sure a greater number will appreciate the help and advice. How can you be sure that the industry will be destroyed? 

Misquote JM. I never said that. Andy Freedom did.

[DAVIDH]

"As an investor can you please tell me how long staycation will last ?"

I was reading an article in a travel industry paper today, which forecasts just this. It's not just whether consumers can book to go abroad, it's whether they have the appetite for it. According to the survey below, even with 12 months notice, only half of respondents voice any enthusiasm for a trip abroad. Personally, I think next year will be another staycation year, with 2022 seeing a return to overseas holidays.

"Only at six-to-nine months in advance did YouGov record a significant rise in the proportion ‘comfortable’ to book to 26%, compared with 57% who remained uncomfortable – and only at nine months to a year did the proportion of respondents comfortable (41%) match those not (40%).

YouGov UK head of data products Amelia Brophy told Travel Weekly: “People are still reluctant to book trips abroad [and] last-minute quarantine policies and sudden spikes in cases in some countries are likely to have increased this sentiment.

“People slowly become more comfortable as the departure date extends into the future. [But] over half of Brits still find booking a holiday half a year to nine months in advance too precarious.”

The survey found 50% would be uncomfortable visiting a hotel and 45% uncomfortable visiting a restaurant abroad. However, 50% would be comfortable on a foreign beach.

Brophy said: “Many people simply feel nervous about going to a hotel or restaurant abroad.”

YouGov polled 1,652 UK adults on August 18-19." 

The full article is here: https://www.travelweekly.co.uk/articles/386419/britons-still-uneasy-about-travelling-abroad-survey-finds

[Vaughan]

9 hours ago, RealWindmill said:

9 hours ago, FreedomBoatingHols said:

I do take your point about training, but it won't happen. It would destroy the domestic boat hire industry on the Broads, 

Why, or perhaps How ?  ( genuine question )

Well, all that yesterday blew a bit of soot out of the pipes anyway!    

I would just like to take up on the point about driving licences, as I have worked for many years in countries where a skipper's permit is obligatory, for hire as well as private boats.  In fact UK is one of the few places where it isn't.

In France, you have to have a "Permis" to drive a private boat.  This involves half an hour in a class room answering questions on the rules in the "Code Vagnon" and you don't have to step on board a boat to pass it.  So another effectively useless piece of paper with a stamp on it.  Hire boats get round this by issuing a "Permis de Plaisance" which is valid for the dates of your holiday only and certifies that you have had instruction from the yard and are competent.  The yard and its instructors are all licensed to issue these permits and in fact we make them into a nice looking certificate on stiff card, for customers to take home as a souvenir.

This at once means that a hirer, after our trial run and a week's experience, is far more competent to drive a boat than most private owners!  As to how we run our business and how we do our trial runs, it doesn't make the slightest bit of difference to what we have been doing for the last 70 years.  Just another piece of paper, which French Administration dearly loves to see.

In other countries such as Germany and Switzerland you cannot hire a boat without a recognised skipper's licence.  So the Germans and the Swiss are our best customers in France, where they don't need a licence!  It also means there are pretty well no hire boat companies on those countries' waterways.

Perhaps that, in itself, is a salutary thought?

[Vaughan]

21 hours ago, Vaughan said:

One of the main reasons to drop your mud weight when aground on Breydon was that you are then a vessel "at anchor" and cannot be fleeced for salvage by the "longshore sharks" that used to inhabit Cobholm Island.

I am surprised that no-one took me up on this comment as it was meant to show that Breydon has not changed over many years.  The Longshore Sharks were very well known on Breydon, back in the days of the trading wherries.  I am surprised that no-one now seems to have heard of them.

As to the marked channel, well surely you keep all the red posts on one side of the boat and all the green posts on the other, with the yellow post as a "middle ground" marker at the junction of two channels. If you want to go into a little more detail, then you leave the red posts to port when going upstream, but perhaps best not to confuse hirers with too much detail!

Does it really need new regulation, to make it any more complicated than that?

[grendel]

6 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

I am surprised that no-one took me up on this comment as it was meant to show that Breydon has not changed over many years.  The Longshore Sharks were very well known on Breydon, back in the days of the trading wherries.  I am surprised that no-one now seems to have heard of them.

in fact a great deal is made around this point in Arthur Ransomes Coot Club, with the wreckers as they come down the bure, to the stranding of the margoletta on the mud of Breydon with the Death and Glories putting the anchor down and informing the skipper of the come along that she wasnt for salvage.

[SwanR]

10 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

As to the marked channel, well surely you keep all the red posts on one side of the boat and all the green posts on the other, with the yellow post as a "middle ground" marker at the junction of two channels. If you want to go into a little more detail, then you leave the red posts to port when going upstream, but perhaps best not to confuse hirers with too much detail!

A slight aside from Breydon but relevant to this point. My first hire of recent years was on the southern rivers. So not experienced and a little nervous. Rockland Broad was really confusing! I didn’t know why red and green posts are on the side that they are. Or the significance of a yellow post. And the fact that they change halfway round where the Broad meets the Dyke down to the Staithe meant I had no idea which red and green to keep between.

[grendel]

then there is the yellow post on hickling leading to catfield, that is so far from the next post of any colour i am never sure which side to pass it, is it marking the corner between  green and red going north of south? i always turn after the post coming up hickling or just before it coming down, I know if you start cutting across from the next post either way it gets shallow, so you need to go close to the yellow post, but even i as a fairly experienced boated am unsure on this one?

[RealWindmill]

10 hours ago, FreedomBoatingHols said:

I don't agree with your point at all. A hire boat from 50 years ago handles in much the same way as a boat made last year once you take away all the thrusters, which, of course, make it much simpler. Just because it's new with a new engine doesn't alter the fact that it's much the same. There's also the old chestnut argument that they are so much bigger now (though I note it's not used here), but this is, again, untrue. 44 and 45ft boats have been produced for decades. The one I had was built in 1974 and I still have an Aston Bourne 40 where the hull originated in the 1960s. 

The high-tech in new boats is more about systems than handling. 

I do take your point about training, but it won't happen. It would destroy the domestic boat hire industry on the Broads, Canals and other inland navigation where, frankly, the level of incident is very low. It's much lower than the number of people injured in pub brawls in a single city on a single (old normal) Friday night.   

 

And I in turn am having difficulty agreeing with your point Andy.

Yes there are very few incidents statistically compared to hires and, yes, the modern social media and the hype blow things out of proportion, And yes, a boat is a boat whether new or 50 years old. But the fact is there have been recent tragedies and incidents.  

The  BA are on a mission now to make the Broads safer and are requesting feedback from the boating public about boating incidents and are doing their bit to implement safety features such as marking off of shallow area ( viz. the buoys at Surlingham Broad entrance ).

So why dismiss training.

In my suggestion only complete first timers would get the full-monty approach and need "skippering". What percent of your customers are complete first timers ? Many are i'm sure return customers.  

Charter boat skippered type holidays on yachts have been successful for many years in the Med and Caribbean.

Sure might be a  bit of a pain in the butt to setup in a  boat hire yard but , as mentioned before, think of the job opportunities for local instructors.

[Oddfellow]

9 hours ago, JennyMorgan said:

Whilst a few might be put off I am sure a greater number will appreciate the help and advice. Andy, how can you be sure that the industry will be destroyed? 

The majority of people come for a relaxing break. They don't come to learn how to become a part-time pilot and effectively be part of a week-long training course.  Day hire would be wiped out if you needed some kind of certificate that couldn't be issued in minutes which would render it valueless anyway. This is the very point that Vaughan makes and I stress that I had written this before I had read Vaughan's post. 

What about all those that have been doing it for years? I just can't see it working at all. 

One of the first rules of sales is "Make it easy to buy". The moment you start putting barriers in the way of a holiday purchase is the moment someone says "You know what? It's cheaper to fly to Spain" and it's not as if this argument isn't used ad nauseum without that barrier being imposed. 

What *MIGHT* work on Breydon is a convoy system with a few ranger vessels monitoring movements front and rear of convoys which take place only at slack-low. But where's the money to pay for this?

[RealWindmill]

2 minutes ago, FreedomBoatingHols said:

The majority of people come for a relaxing break. They don't come to learn how to become a part-time pilot and effectively be part of a week-long training course.  Day hire would be wiped out if you needed some kind of certificate that couldn't be issued in minutes which would render it valueless anyway. This is the very point that Vaughan makes and I stress that I had written this before I had read Vaughan's post. 

What about all those that have been doing it for years? I just can't see it working at all. 

 

Which is why Andy I referred to large boats and their handling issues and training of first timers .They are are the ones doing real damage to other moored boats and quay headings and getting stuck on the pud.

Small dayboats can still be used for relaxation and i'm sure your current excellent H/O's cover their usage perfectly well.

[Oddfellow]

3 minutes ago, RealWindmill said:

 

And I in turn am having difficulty agreeing with your point Andy.

Yes there are very few incidents statistically compared to hires and, yes, the modern social media and the hype blow things out of proportion, And yes, a boat is a boat whether new or 50 years old. But the fact is there have been recent tragedies and incidents.  

The  BA are on a mission now to make the Broads safer and are requesting feedback from the boating public about boating incidents and are doing their bit to implement safety features such as marking off of shallow area ( viz. the buoys at Surlingham Broad entrance ).

So why dismiss training.

In my suggestion only complete first timers would get the full-monty approach and need "skippering". What percent of your customers are complete first timers ? Many are i'm sure return customers.  

Charter boat skippered type holidays on yachts have been successful for many years in the Med and Caribbean.

Sure might be a  bit of a pain in the butt to setup in a  boat hire yard but , as mentioned before, think of the job opportunities for local instructors.

There have been some high-profile tragedies this year. Two associated with novice boaters, two associated with seasoned and experienced boat owners and there has been a HUGE influx of first timers who have no appetite to go abroad or have had holidays cancelled. This scenario is likely to continue well into next season and possibly beyond until there is some kind of effective inoculation and/or treatment for Covid-19. I am not aware of any report that suggests that those who now take staycations rather than fly around the world will not return to flight once they feel it's worth it again. However, I would suggest that 40% of our holiday makers were always newcommers to boats and that many who had been coming for years couldn't handle a boat for toffee either because they had never received any more than 10 minutes actual instruction anyway. 

Training costs money because to be effective, it involves 1-1 interactions in close quarters (already a challenge with the Virus) and needs to be carried out over a decent period of time in various conditions. How could any yard provide this? How could Richardsons, tucked away at the end of the Ant with the current flow of a dripping tap hope to demonstrate how to turn a boat at Yarmouth? 

Think of the job opportunities? Few, because the take-up would be negligible as people opt for Motorhome hire, cottages and so on. Heck, we'd probably start making Centreparcs look cheap. 

[RealWindmill]

1 hour ago, Vaughan said:

 

In France, you have to have a "Permis" to drive a private boat.  This involves half an hour in a class room answering questions on the rules in the "Code Vagnon" and you don't have to step on board a boat to pass it.  So another effectively useless piece of paper with a stamp on it.  Hire boats get round this by issuing a "Permis de Plaisance" which is valid for the dates of your holiday only and certifies that you have had instruction from the yard and are competent.  The yard and its instructors are all licensed to issue these permits and in fact we make them into a nice looking certificate on stiff card, for customers to take home as a souvenir.

Perhaps that, in itself, is a salutary thought?

If I have read this paragraph correctly Vaughan, you seem to be saying that it's just really paying lip-service to the whole Permis situation which ,I agree, is probably no good to man nor beast.

Or have I misunderstood your post.

[Oddfellow]

5 minutes ago, RealWindmill said:

Which is why Andy I referred to large boats and their handling issues and training of first timers .They are are the ones doing real damage to other moored boats and quay headings and getting stuck on the pud.

Small dayboats can still be used for relaxation and i'm sure your current excellent H/O's cover their usage perfectly well.

Define a large boat and define it's handling issues. There are few real differences in the handling of a 27ft boat or a 44ft boat aside from perception and length when turning in a narrow channel. This is perception (yours) not real fact. Often, the larger boat is more poised and controllable. 

Day boat handovers are, in general, little more than "stay to the right, push it this way to go forward, that way to go back". Excellent is not a word I would use. It's also true that many day boats handle like total pigs. 

[RealWindmill]

1 minute ago, FreedomBoatingHols said:

Training costs money because to be effective, it involves 1-1 interactions in close quarters (already a challenge with the Virus) and needs to be carried out over a decent period of time in various conditions. How could any yard provide this? How could Richardsons, tucked away at the end of the Ant with the current flow of a dripping tap hope to demonstrate how to turn a boat at Yarmouth? 

Think of the job opportunities? Few, because the take-up would be negligible as people opt for Motorhome hire, cottages and so on. Heck, we'd probably start making Centreparcs look cheap. 

Thanks for your info on customer stats, interesting stuff.

As for training costs money. Well, the hire companies are quite happy to take money from the customers and use the Broads as a way to make money. Possibly not too much to ask to put a bit back in and make the Broads safer.

Richardsons and Yarmouth - my suggestion had a Charter Skipper onboard.

(point taken about interaction and Covid though - not easy)

[RealWindmill]

2 minutes ago, FreedomBoatingHols said:

Define a large boat and define it's handling issues. There are few real differences in the handling of a 27ft boat or a 44ft boat aside from perception and length when turning in a narrow channel. This is perception (yours) not real fact. Often, the larger boat is more poised and controllable. 

Day boat handovers are, in general, little more than "stay to the right, push it this way to go forward, that way to go back". Excellent is not a word I would use. It's also true that many day boats handle like total pigs. 

But there are handling differences. I'm more likely to side swipe a moored boat with my stern in a 45 footer than in a 20 footer.

(not me personally of course )

[Vaughan]

4 minutes ago, RealWindmill said:

Or have I misunderstood your post.

No, I don't think you have.

Part of what I am saying involves Sod's Second Law of Engineering : If it is running well, then you don't need to mend it.  In other words, (and in my own experience) the method we have always used to instruct our customers in boat handling is not made in any way better by a rubber stamp on a piece of paper.

The other part is that if you want extra training, such as an RYA ticket, this would take about 3 days (I believe) and I doubt someone would want to dedicate 3 days, out of only a week's holiday.

Third point is that at least the French have a specific inland waterways licence category.  Their "yacht masters" is a different licence.  I don't believe an inland waterways licence, or course, exists in UK at present.

By the way, an RYA yacht masters is not valid as a French waterways permit!

 

[Vaughan]

9 minutes ago, RealWindmill said:

Well, the hire companies are quite happy to take money from the customers and use the Broads as a way to make money. Possibly not too much to ask to put a bit back in and make the Broads safer.

Please try to avoid throwaway remarks such as that as they simply show ignorance of the subject and are insulting to those of us who know the real figures.

[Bytheriver]

There will no doubt be a "Live" update here at 10am (or soon after)

 https://www.broads-authority.gov.uk/about-us/committees/broads-authority/broads-authority-25-september-2020

[Poppy]

22 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

No, I don't think you have.

Part of what I am saying involves Sod's Second Law of Engineering : If it is running well, then you don't need to mend it.  In other words, (and in my own experience) the method we have always used to instruct our customers in boat handling is not made in any way better by a rubber stamp on a piece of paper.

The other part is that if you want extra training, such as an RYA ticket, this would take about 3 days (I believe) and I doubt someone would want to dedicate 3 days, out of only a week's holiday.

Third point is that at least the French have a specific inland waterways licence category.  Their "yacht masters" is a different licence.  I don't believe an inland waterways licence, or course, exists in UK at present.

By the way, an RYA yacht masters is not valid as a French waterways permit!

 

Not a licence as such, but a qualification does exist !

https://www.rya.org.uk/courses-training/courses/inland-waterways/Pages/inland-waterways-helmsmans-course.aspx

[RealWindmill]

18 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

No, I don't think you have.

Part of what I am saying involves Sod's Second Law of Engineering : If it is running well, then you don't need to mend it.  In other words, (and in my own experience) the method we have always used to instruct our customers in boat handling is not made in any way better by a rubber stamp on a piece of paper.

The other part is that if you want extra training, such as an RYA ticket, this would take about 3 days (I believe) and I doubt someone would want to dedicate 3 days, out of only a week's holiday.

Third point is that at least the French have a specific inland waterways licence category.  Their "yacht masters" is a different licence.  I don't believe an inland waterways licence, or course, exists in UK at present.

By the way, an RYA yacht masters is not valid as a French waterways permit!

 

Well the BA want to mend it. They want to make the Broads safer.

Obtaining your RYA ticket or whatever cert was decided upon would be an integral part of your holiday, not an encumbrance and may actually add to the hirers overall enjoyment and satisfaction with the holiday experience.

I have an ICC ticket which allows me on French waterways, (actually I got it for Dutch canal boating) , It was obtained as an extension to one of the RYA courses I had done - I don't remember which.

[Vaughan]

2 minutes ago, Poppy said:

Not a licence as such, but a qualification does exist !

I had a horrible feeling someone would pick me up on that!

All the same, it is a 2 day course, taken in one of their centres or "on your own boat".  Does that also mean a hire boat on the Broads?

[RealWindmill]

24 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

Please try to avoid throwaway remarks such as that as they simply show ignorance of the subject and are insulting to those of us who know the real figures.

 

35 minutes ago, RealWindmill said:

 

As for training costs money. Well, the hire companies are quite happy to take money from the customers and use the Broads as a way to make money. Possibly not too much to ask to put a bit back in and make the Broads safer.

 

So the hire companies ARE NOT in the business  of making money and taking money out of the Broads holiday business.  That's novel.

[Poppy]

8 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

I had a horrible feeling someone would pick me up on that!

All the same, it is a 2 day course, taken in one of their centres or "on your own boat".  Does that also mean a hire boat on the Broads?

It certainly could do .

[Vaughan]

3 minutes ago, RealWindmill said:

Obtaining your RYA ticket or whatever cert was decided upon would be an integral part of your holiday, not an encumbrance and may actually add to the hirers overall enjoyment and satisfaction with the holiday experience.

This has been available as a suggested adjunct to a holiday, for several years now. Funnily enough its popularity does not seem to have taken off!

5 minutes ago, RealWindmill said:

I have an ICC ticket which allows me on French waterways, (actually I got it for Dutch canal boating) , It was obtained as an extension to one of the RYA courses I had done - I don't remember which.

Congratulations.

 

6 minutes ago, RealWindmill said:

Well the BA want to mend it. They want to make the Broads safer.

Again I resent your implication, as you stated earlier, that the boatyards don't care to make things safer.

If you really want to know, when I was chairman of the technical committee of Blakes Holidays in the 70s, I wrote the original draft of what became approved by the River Commissioners as installation safety standards for all boats on the Broads.  This was later adopted by the NRA for all UK waterways and has now become the present day BSS.  I am pleased to see that in its main detail, it is the same document that I originally presented.

Perhaps you may now understand why I resent throwaway remarks about hire boat safety.

[HEM]

10 hours ago, DAVIDH said:

Brophy said: “Many people simply feel nervous about going to a hotel or restaurant abroad.”

Personally I feel nervous about going to a hotel or restaurant within the bounds of the country that I live in.
The virus danger is everywhere.