Another Incident At Grt Yarmouth I'm Afraid.

[Vaughan]

10 hours ago, JennyMorgan said:

RYA prop guard advice:

https://www.rya.org.uk/knowledge-advice/safe-boating/look-after-yourself/equipment-for-uk-pleasure-vessels/Pages/prop-guards.aspx

Thank you very much for that Peter. I have just had a read of that over my morning coffee and I highly recommend it to those concerned by this subject. It is objective, sensible and also well written.

I will quote just this one of their final sentences :

There can be no substitute for the safe operation of a power boat and if you do elect to fit a prop guard this should be seen as nothing more than a last resort.

I would also add that rescue ribs have out board motors. So if the prop guard gets clogged you can clear it in seconds by cranking up the outboard, and without having to dive under the boat or perhaps even haul it out. They are also very easily damaged by grounding.

[JennyMorgan]

MM. there appears to be little doubt that there is an increase in prop related incidents. I can only guess the reasons but statistics are statistics. Personally I'm not in favour of prop guards but I am in favour of more effective education and bankside information. 

On BBC East this morning there was mention of a crew being airlifted off their grounded cruiser on Breydon, injury free I think.

[Vaughan]

1 minute ago, JennyMorgan said:

MM. there appears to be little doubt that there is an increase in prop related incidents. I can only guess the reasons but statistics are statistics.

And the same statistics can also prove two sides of an argument.

There have been two prop related deaths this year. that is if the second one involved the prop which we don't know yet.

When was the last one? There was a serious injury in Acle a couple of years ago but not fatal, I believe.

When was the one before that?  Can't remember.

How many people (to the nearest hundred thousand) have enjoyed injury free Broads holidays in the last 3 years?

[Chelsea14Ian]

Speaking  from experience, accident s can and do happen.My disagreement with Ludham bridge has left a lasting mark on my life.Nearly every day I relive that dreadful day.If I could  turn back time I would.That said it happened and I must get on with Life.Part of the reason concerning many of these accidents is perhaps this year the season , due to Covad has been short perhaps some people are so keen to get out and about that may be they are not taking the care that perhaps they would  do normally.

Let's hope that what remains  of the season,is uneventful and safe for all.

[JennyMorgan]

1 minute ago, Vaughan said:

There have been two prop related deaths this year. that is if the second one involved the prop which we don't know yet.

There has also been a nasty limb loss incident. 

[Vaughan]

6 minutes ago, Chelsea14Ian said:

Let's hope that what remains  of the season,is uneventful and safe for all.

I'll drink to that!

Oh, perhaps that's not the right expression to use . . . 

[JennyMorgan]

Prop related incidents:

https://www.edp24.co.uk/news/warning-over-boat-propellers-water-safety-norfolk-broads-coast-1-6802060

[Vaughan]

Without for a moment trying to pre-empt the findings of an enquiry, I must say I have always been rather anxious about the design of the back end of some new hire boats. The deck is right down at water level (which must only just conform with ERCD regs) and a short adult or child standing there may not be seen by the helmsman at either of the two helm positions, owing to the high seat backrests on the flybridge.

You walk straight out of a full height back cabin door, onto a little aft deck about a foot and a half wide. Rather like walking out of the window of your beach hotel room onto the little balcony.

But you would expect that balcony to have a rail around it.

That said, I don't like "pushpit" rails on rivers or canals as they are an obstruction when mooring and rope handling. Even so, in some designs, maybe they are essential?

 

[Oddfellow]

20 hours ago, JennyMorgan said:

Agreed but facts is facts, there have been some horrendous incidents this year and at least one prop related death. Eventually, perhaps, we shall be told just how many of these casualties involved new comers to boating. 

I have recently been involved in winding up two estates and dealing with banks. In dealing with banks, Lloyds and Barclays. I have had to listen to and view several related video presentations. I have then had to sign declarations to the effect that I had seen the presentations, that I understood them and was offered the opportunity to ask questions. Annoying, perhaps, but wholly understandable in this day and age. 

I have produced a short series of videos this year that discuss safety, general things and look at three vessels in depth to shorted our handover times. EVERY customer is told to watch the relevant videos for their vessel (and where I haven't made a video for a vessel, a full handover remains in place). Every customer is asked whether they have watched the videos prior to them arriving and is the answer negatively, the will not have a handover until they have. The also sign to say that they have. 

This has not stopped the occasional customer from totally ignoring the videos. For example, one caused a breakdown and great frustration and delays because they ignored the video or thought that it said something that it didn't. Of course, the video (only about 15 minutes) is always available on-line to watch again, but ignorance is clearly easier until it causes humongous problems which, all too often is what happens. 

The key points are: 

• you can't make people read documentation (RTFM)
• you can't make people watch videos
• you can't make people remember everything you tell them

For sure, the videos have massively streamlined our comprehensive handover - for a boat that have the safety and introduction video. we now get on board, clarify again that they have seen the video and invite initial questions and then get the customer to start the boat and leave the mooring - within 2 minutes generally, we are into the boat handing which will take 20 minutes plus and includes holding a straight line, turning in the river and finding a straight line again, mooring side on, leaving that mooring safety and mooring stern on plus discussion about handing a strong current / wind. 

But we simply can't MAKE people do things. Still, despite the videos being highlighted in emails prior to arrival, people say they haven't watched them because they haven't been made aware of them. They were, they just didn't read the email. It's fair to say that most are more likely to watch the videos than ever read the skipper's manual and I suspect if we continued with the business and made more videos, our processes could be streamlined further and we would get more information out to more people because they generally prefer to be spoken to rather than have to read something and the growth of YouTube must be testament to this. 

But, you can't MAKE people do something. I would feel that sitting people down in a room to watch a presentation would be problematic. I think that Caley Cruisers do this, but this is a tiny operation by comparison to our main yards and, of course, social distancing won't allow this for some years.

Perhaps the answer is some shock and awe tactics; i don't know. What I do know is that whilst the incident rate seems high this year, it's also perhaps because the reporting of every broken fingernail and stubbed toe is reported and commented on instantly on social media. It's brought to people's attention faster than Trump can say "it's a beautiful thing".  And then it's shared and shared and commented on and shared and belittled and shared and so it goes on. 

We're now air-lifting people off boats on Breydon that can't follow the channel. People have been unable to follow the channel for literally decades, often not because of vessel deficiencies or a lack of information but because they haven't paid attention to the briefing, the manual, the video, the Broadcaster paper that has an entire and indepth look at the area, a map, telephone numbers, tide times and every possible bit of essential information you need for a safe, incident-free passage. 20 years ago, we might have taken photos and they went in holiday albums. Today we take photos and shove them on facebook for everybody gawp at and ridicule.

This is progress? 

 

[Vaughan]

5 minutes ago, FreedomBoatingHols said:

We're now air-lifting people off boats on Breydon that can't follow the channel. People have been unable to follow the channel for literally decades, often not because of vessel deficiencies or a lack of information but because they haven't paid attention to the briefing, the manual, the video, the Broadcaster paper that has an entire and indepth look at the area, a map, telephone numbers, tide times and every possible bit of essential information you need for a safe, incident-free passage. 20 years ago, we might have taken photos and they went in holiday albums. Today we take photos and shove them on facebook for everybody gawp at and ridicule.

I particularly like your last paragraph Andy!

[RealWindmill]

12 hours ago, grendel said:

but the reality is that if you introduced these measures into new designs, in 50 years time there will still be boats on hire and private that wont have these features, you have to remember the working lives of these boats, Marthams fleet are all 60 years old at least, and i wouldnt be at all surprised to see them still under hire in 50 more years.

But you have to start somewhere and all forms of transportation evolve and newer versions will have the latest safety features to minimise tragic occurances.  As all point out though ... the human factor will always be there.

[MauriceMynah]

1 hour ago, JennyMorgan said:

MM. there appears to be little doubt that there is an increase in prop related incidents. I can only guess the reasons but statistics are statistics.

Agreed but if there was one incident between 2016-2018 and two in the period 2019-2020 That's an increase of one, or a 100% increase. That's stats for you!

[Timbo]

6 minutes ago, MauriceMynah said:

That's stats for you!

I'm 110% behind you on that issue!

[Oddfellow]

41 minutes ago, MauriceMynah said:

Agreed but if there was one incident between 2016-2018 and two in the period 2019-2020 That's an increase of one, or a 100% increase. That's stats for you!

I think this is all a blip. It's a blip associated with an attitude shift due to the current situation, lockdown and so on. The attitude, incidentally, is increasingly one displaying a sense of entitlement, a lack of patience and a dearth of responsibility acceptance.  Of course, the accidents are tragic and accidents happen anywhere and I have no intention of downplaying this,  but I know of other situations where people have done some very stupid things and managed to get away without injury probably more though luck than anything else. One jumped in the river to get a rope off a prop because he couldn't be bothered waiting for professional help, for instance. 

 

[grendel]

56 minutes ago, MauriceMynah said:

Agreed but if there was one incident between 2016-2018 and two in the period 2019-2020 That's an increase of one, or a 100% increase. That's stats for you!

actually a 50% increase as the first time period was double the second (or does that make it 200&, statistics cant get my head round how they are supposed to work)

[Vaughan]

I have always been taught that 23% of Damn-all is still Damn-all!

[JennyMorgan]

46 minutes ago, FreedomBoatingHols said:

One jumped in the river to get a rope off a prop because he couldn't be bothered waiting for professional help, for instance. 

Guilty as charged!

Done it for myself and done it for others, I must be a real idiot!

[NorfolkNog]

Looks like another one caught out on Breydon Water. Wonder if they read/listened to the guidance. We shouldn't speculate of course. 

 

I 

[vanessan]

36 minutes ago, JennyMorgan said:

Guilty as charged!

Done it for myself and done it for others, I must be a real idiot!

The difference being you knew what you were doing. Hopefully! 

[vanessan]

51 minutes ago, NorfolkNog said:

Looks like another one caught out on Breydon Water. Wonder if they read/listened to the guidance. We shouldn't speculate of course. 

 

I 

I hope ‘t’other side’ won’t mind me mentioning that the write-up for this incident is worth a read. The full story shows just how much effort the emergency and rescue services put into their tasks. Thank goodness they are there and geared up for all eventualities!

[NorfolkNog]

Looks like a Ferry one? Must have been well outside the channel. To be fair it could have been engine failure. We will probably never know. 

[Cheesey69]

I’ll keep saying this, water is a killer with a gentle face but it’s still a killer. 
Your boat still has mass and inertia and gravity still effects you. 
Things happen in slo mo but they happen 

[JennyMorgan]

3 hours ago, NorfolkNog said:

Looks like a Ferry one? Must have been well outside the channel. To be fair it could have been engine failure. We will probably never know. 

https://www.edp24.co.uk/news/holiday-makers-rescued-from-hire-cruiser-breydon-water-norfolk-1-6849480

[Regulo]

Another dose of hyperbole. No, it won't capsize. No, there was no danger to life. No, there was no need for a rescue helicopter. Just wait for the next tide. And if you can't understand "Keep the green posts one side and the red posts the other", then you shouldn't be in charge of a boat. Tin hat on. 

[OldBerkshireBoy]

8 minutes ago, Regulo said:

Another dose of hyperbole. No, it won't capsize. No, there was no danger to life. No, there was no need for a rescue helicopter. Just wait for the next tide. 

Easy to say from the armchair, not so easy to say that to women, children and some gentleman on board when the boat was at such an angle and I am sure whoever made the call for the helicopter had experiance. Show some compassion.