Another Incident At Grt Yarmouth I'm Afraid.

[Cheesey69]

After sailing around the east coast you get to know about running aground. 
You also get to know your depth sounder and your draft. 
The broads for at least a hire boat, your unlikely to run aground. 
It does not figure in a hirers calculation. 
There is no notice on draft and I’ve only hired one boat that had a depth sounder. 
I was surprised how shallow The broads are in places

Maybe the answer is to post up draft notices and equip with depth gauges with alarms like my NASA. 

[CambridgeCabby]

39 minutes ago, Cheesey69 said:

After sailing around the east coast you get to know about running aground. 
You also get to know your depth sounder and your draft. 
The broads for at least a hire boat, your unlikely to run aground. 
It does not figure in a hirers calculation. 
There is no notice on draft and I’ve only hired one boat that had a depth sounder. 
I was surprised how shallow The broads are in places

Maybe the answer is to post up draft notices and equip with depth gauges with alarms like my NASA. 

The only place you are likely to run aground is on Braydon or its approaches , on all the shallow areas where there is a risk of grounding there are marker posts clearly marking this , if the hirers or more correctly the helm has read the information provided by the hire company and the BA as he she confirms as such by the signing of the hand over paperwork then there is no need for the expense of retro fitting depth gauges . 
 

[Cal]

20 hours ago, Regulo said:

Thinking about this further, most of these groundings seem to have occurred as boats approach Breydon from the Waveney. I can almost guarantee to see scour marks in the mud every time I come through, where boats have had a "near thing" with the mud. Perhaps on that approach, direction arrows could be called for?

We have almost done it ourselves heading back to Yarmouth!

 

The sun was at an angle where you couldn't tell the colour of the posts easily and we were not really concentrating as we should have been and we almost merrily followed a hire boat onto the mud. It was only at the last minute we took note and realised the error and were able to change course to avoid going aground!

[rightsaidfred]

Is this not just another case of social media hype, for as long as I can remember boats have run aground on Breydon both private and hire, its only the last few years that its become a quiz item on what can we do next game shows.

Fred

[Cheesey69]

27 minutes ago, CambridgeCabby said:

The only place you are likely to run aground is on Braydon or its approaches , on all the shallow areas where there is a risk of grounding there are marker posts clearly marking this , if the hirers or more correctly the helm has read the information provided by the hire company and the BA as he she confirms as such by the signing of the hand over paperwork then there is no need for the expense of retro fitting depth gauges . 
 

You don’t need washer water level alarm on your car but it’s handy. 
All the examples above would have been alerted with a depth sounder. 
The point was you need to draw attention to another dimension of water depth that can be monitored easily. 
And I’ve seen a few boats hung up on the margins down south
loads of people don’t read T and C on this forum or hire sheets. 

[OldBerkshireBoy]

23 minutes ago, Cheesey69 said:

You don’t need washer water level alarm on your car but it’s handy. 

Indeed an empty washer bottle on a car, van or truck can get you 3 points on your driving licence.

(slight drift-sorry)

[Poppy]

39 minutes ago, Cheesey69 said:

You don’t need washer water level alarm on your car but it’s handy. 
All the examples above would have been alerted with a depth sounder. 
The point was you need to draw attention to another dimension of water depth that can be monitored easily. 
And I’ve seen a few boats hung up on the margins down south
loads of people don’t read T and C on this forum or hire sheets. 

I know there are plenty who love 'toys', but depth sounders are notoriously inaccurate over liquid mud, which would pretty fairly describe the Breydon margins.

[SteveO]

Time was, when we saw a boat aground on Breydon we laughed, took a photo and waited for the tide to refloat them. Now we call out a very expensive helicopter and winch the crew off. Presumably then we wait for the tide to refloat the boat in question, hoping that someone had the presence of mind to chuck out a mudweight,  accommodate and entertain the crew until the boat refloats and then ferry them back to their boat, assuming it didn't somehow sink as the tide was coming in. What has changed? Who pays for this nonsense? Who is looking at boat design and construction to make sure that hireboat design and construction leads to a safe failure and recovery in these situations? 

[Meantime]

It strikes me that there are two hot spots or rather were two hot spots for people running aground on Breydon. The first was people going to the right of the green posts having just come under the bridge and not realising that the channel bears so far to the left. For a while John Cressey put temporary cardboard arrows pointing which side to pass the posts and that helped tremendously. Since then the BA have replaced these with more permanent arrows and again I haven't seen so many aground that end. 

The other place that is a hotspot is the top end of Breydon where the Yare and Waveney meet near Turntide Jetty. Either people think they need to go to the left of the Red markers when heading up the Waveney, or they come down the Yare and just plough straight ahead.

Surely it's not rocket science that the arrows have helped at the other end of Breydon, and therefore will help at this particular hotspot. Arrows pointing into the channel as  you approach the top end of Breydon would really help and seems to me to be a low cost low tech approach.

[Chelsea14Ian]

12 minutes ago, SteveO said:

Time was, when we saw a boat aground on Breydon we laughed, took a photo and waited for the tide to refloat them. Now we call out a very expensive helicopter and winch the crew off. Presumably then we wait for the tide to refloat the boat in question, hoping that someone had the presence of mind to chuck out a mudweight,  accommodate and entertain the crew until the boat refloats and then ferry them back to their boat, assuming it didn't somehow sink as the tide was coming in. What has changed? Who pays for this nonsense? Who is looking at boat design and construction to make sure that hireboat design and construction leads to a safe failure and recovery in these situations? 

Think you find the coastguard  decide what action to take,as I've said they attended  my accident and decided  that Ambulance was the best option.If it was more urgent then they would  have called in the helicopter. 

[Cheesey69]

If It can go wrong, it will eventually. 
That’s the nature of everything we do. 
Try to plan and get experience but things happen. 
Even with gps ships run aground. 
The best plan then is prey it don’t happen to you. 
But if it does, have a plan 

[JennyMorgan]

8 minutes ago, Chelsea14Ian said:

Who pays for this nonsense?

You and I do, as tax payers who directly finance the Coastguard.

 

10 minutes ago, Chelsea14Ian said:

Think you find the coastguard  decide what action to take,

Unless things have changed since I was an auxiliary Coastguard then you are absolutely right. The action that a Coastguard might take could include delegating decision making to a suitable, on site, alternative. 

[Broads01]

10 hours ago, CambridgeCabby said:

a holiday should be relaxing remove the stress and spend your week either South or North , there is plenty to fill a week either side .

I don't agree. There's a time for staying north or staying south and indeed last month I had a brilliant week staying north. However, I don't find crossing Breydon stressful in the least, albeit with many years' experience and it's part of the tapestry of fun that makes up a Broads holiday. For every incident like this, thousands of Breydon crossings are made without issue. 

[Broads01]

9 hours ago, grendel said:

Perhaps a better option would be for an escorted service across Breydon, whereby half way through slack the escort boat could escort a convoy of hire boats from North to South, whilst a similar boat performed the service the other way around.

That sounds like an unnecessary and very expensive luxury. 

[BroadAmbition]

Perhaps a better option would be for an escorted service across Breydon.

That sounds like an unnecessary and very expensive luxury.

Not to mention downright insulting to ones common sense / intelligence

Griff

[CambridgeCabby]

1 hour ago, Broads01 said:

I don't agree. There's a time for staying north or staying south and indeed last month I had a brilliant week staying north. However, I don't find crossing Breydon stressful in the least, albeit with many years' experience and it's part of the tapestry of fun that makes up a Broads holiday. For every incident like this, thousands of Breydon crossings are made without issue. 

And in your case you are totally correct not to agree , my full posting alluded to new members who were concerned about making the crossing and in their case I feel it is a valid opinion , enjoy their first boating holiday afloat , gain the experience (and confidence) and stay North or South till they have .

Its no coincidence that this year with the much higher percentage of first time hirers holidaying on The Broads  that we have seen a recent surge in mishaps .

The passage through Gt Yarmouth and Braydon is safe for a compétent helm those with no experience find it daunting and in many cases confusing .

[RealWindmill]

One thing the BA do really well is instruction and information.

The excellent full page spread about crossing Breydon  they give in their Broadcaster rag should be more than enough to allay anyones fears, novice or not, about making the Breydon crossing.

Only problem they may have is some clown in a high power boat screaming past at speed with a big wash.

[Oddfellow]

20 hours ago, EastCoastIPA said:

Edit... Surely there should be at the front of the manual a page on crossing Breydon and what to do if you do happen to get stuck. Put the mud weight down and turn the engine off seem like the basics surely.

 

As has been said here many times, including by me, and perfectly well illustrated by your comment: 

PEOPLE DO NOT READ THE INFORMATION THEY ARE GIVEN
PEOPLE DO NOT LISTEN TO THE INFORMATION THEY ARE GIVEN
PEOPLE WILL IGNORE THE INFORMATION THEY ARE GIVEN 
PEOPLE WILL FORGET THE INFORMATION THEY ARE GIVEN

IF PEOPLE IGNORE THE INFORMATION THEY ARE GIVEN, THEY WILL COME UNSTUCK (OR PERHAPS THE OPPOSITE)

[Vaughan]

You can take a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

I have long ago lost count of the number of trial runs I have given, when I could see very well from the clients' attitude that I needn't have bothered to open my mouth.  That applies to the "experienced" as well as the novice first timers.

[Oddfellow]

14 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

You can take a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

I have long ago lost count of the number of trial runs I have given, when I could see very well from the clients' attitude that I needn't have bothered to open my mouth.  That applies to the "experienced" as well as the novice first timers.

I like my version:

You can give someone all the information, but you can't make them think...

[Meantime]

33 minutes ago, FreedomBoatingHols said:

As has been said here many times, including by me, and perfectly well illustrated by your comment: 

PEOPLE DO NOT READ THE INFORMATION THEY ARE GIVEN
PEOPLE DO NOT LISTEN TO THE INFORMATION THEY ARE GIVEN
PEOPLE WILL IGNORE THE INFORMATION THEY ARE GIVEN 
PEOPLE WILL FORGET THE INFORMATION THEY ARE GIVEN

IF PEOPLE IGNORE THE INFORMATION THEY ARE GIVEN, THEY WILL COME UNSTUCK (OR PERHAPS THE OPPOSITE)

So perhaps the answer is to ask people to read the most pertinent information during the handover and get them to sign that they have read and understood it. If they have signed the handover sheet and later need to be rescued from Breydon and don't have a reasonable enough excuse for getting stuck, such as a mechanical breakdown they are expected to contribute £500 towards their rescue costs.

Or perhaps there might be a Breydon recovery waiver fee much like the fouled prop waiver fee. You are given the choice at time of handover to pay £20 to cover you should you need to be recovered from Breydon for any reason. If you don't take out cover you get charged the full amount should you need to be recovered. The waiver fee could then be used to fund EMS to be on standby to recover any boats stranded on the mud.

[Oddfellow]

Just now, EastCoastIPA said:

So perhaps the answer is to ask people to read the most pertinent information during the handover and get them to sign that they have read and understood it. If they have signed the handover sheet and later need to be rescued from Breydon and don't have a reasonable enough excuse for getting stuck, such as a mechanical breakdown they are expected to contribute £500 towards their rescue costs.

Or perhaps there might be a Breydon recovery waiver fee much like the fouled prop waiver fee. You are given the choice at time of handover to pay £20 to cover you should you need to be recovered from Breydon for any reason. If you don't take out cover you get charged the full amount should you need to be recovered. The waiver fee could then be used to fund EMS to be on standby to recover any boats stranded on the mud.

You think that their signature at the end of a handover doesn't already include a declaration that they have read all the documents, understood the relevant stuff and all that? If so, you've probably very hired a boat or you've never read the forms you've signed. 

I would say that 95% of people asked to sign a sheet at the end of a handover that has a 10pt, two paragraph declaration above it that would take 30 - 60 seconds to read DO NOT READ IT. They just sign, put their name, the time and the date, OFTEN in the wrong places. 

It's easy to sit there and critique this if you've little or no experience of it. 

 

[Vaughan]

I am just off shopping (which I loathe) but I will leave you with the thought that all this is nothing new.

One of the main reasons to drop your mud weight when aground on Breydon was that you are then a vessel "at anchor" and cannot be fleeced for salvage by the "longshore sharks" that used to inhabit Cobholm Island.

[Meantime]

2 minutes ago, FreedomBoatingHols said:

You think that their signature at the end of a handover doesn't already include a declaration that they have read all the documents, understood the relevant stuff and all that? If so, you've probably very hired a boat or you've never read the forms you've signed. 

I would say that 95% of people asked to sign a sheet at the end of a handover that has a 10pt, two paragraph declaration above it that would take 30 - 60 seconds to read DO NOT READ IT. They just sign, put their name, the time and the date, OFTEN in the wrong places. 

It's easy to sit there and critique this if you've little or no experience of it. 

 

Stop right there. I'm not criticising, just trying to come up with solutions. No wonder this country never moves forward with people always ready to jump down your throat. Three posts back after a self imposed break from the forum and I'm already wondering why. Good day to you.

To answer your first point I last hired in 2004. I did read what I signed at the time. We always looked after the boats we hired and never got stuck on Breydon, but sorry if I cannot remember a 16 year old disclaimer and haven't seen one since.

[Wussername]

If people do not listen, or seem to understand the trial run with regard to its importance then it would seem to me that it may be time to revisit the procedure.

Is it working?

Is the literature working, the DVD’s, or perhaps the actual way the trial run is presented?

Andrew