Another Incident At Grt Yarmouth I'm Afraid.

[grendel]

16 minutes ago, Happy said:

  Last September myself and four mates hired Absolute Freedom.  It was stated on the booking form that I had

many years boating experience.  On arrival we loaded the boat and Andy Banner showed us the various bits on the boat. 

Thinking there would be no need for a trial, he said 'are you ready? I said yes, expecting to leave and he said 'we'll take her down the river then'!  We went for around ten minutes then turned round and back to the boatyard.  On arrival he said 'lets see how you stern moor then'.  Fortunately I managed without mishap and off we went.  This was the most thorough hand over I had experienced (even though he knew I had had many years of owning my own boats.  He would not let a boat out until he was sure the helm and crew were competant, should be a lesson for some of the other yards.

every boat handles differently, i would only expect not to do a trial run if i had had that boat before, that said not all yards are that thorough.

[NeilB]

4 hours ago, FreedomBoatingHols said:

Heck, we'd probably start making Centreparcs look cheap. 

Having worked in the hire boat industry for 10 years I agree with most of what you and Vaughan have said, I had to draw the line at this part though ! 

https://youtu.be/QrrIRr9arkM

[grendel]

i would also like to ask members to respect each others opinions and experience, and make allowances for poor choices of phrase that may make posts come across in a worse interpretation than intended. that way we can continue this interesting discussion within the scope afforded by the terms of service.

[rightsaidfred]

Is it me or are we confusing high volume holidays and the expectation that goes with them to low volume expeditions and the planning that goes with them.

Fred

[JennyMorgan]

Perhaps boatyards should offer safety training as a selling point, a positive bonus rather than running shy of it. 

[Meantime]

I'm not sure, but listening to The Broads Authority meeting this morning and in particular to John Packman speaking it has been recognised that this season in particular there has been a shift in behavior  for whatever reason and a number of areas need to be addressed.

Unfortunately I cannot seem to find a recording of the meeting, it looks like you can only listen in at the time it is live, so the rest is based upon my memory of the meeting. 

Issues to be looked at include;

Better warning signage on the approach to Yarmouth.

Design of hire boats.

Hire boat hand over procedures.

Large single sex parties on boats.

Alcohol on boats.

General increase in aggression from private and hire boaters.

More rangers to ensure smaller craft such as paddle boarders are tolled and given education.

Wearing of lifejackets.

In short the member responsible for the boating safety audit report said that things had improved slightly for the period the report covered, which is the year up to March 2020, but that things had got significantly worse this year and will be reflected in the next report which will cover April 2020 up to March 2021. John stated that for a number of reason the Authority had a very busy year ahead, and that workload will be increased dramatically by looking into the issues raised above.

[Vaughan]

35 minutes ago, JennyMorgan said:

Perhaps boatyards should offer safety training as a selling point, a positive bonus rather than running shy of it. 

Come off it Peter, you know very well this is what boatyards have been putting across in their brochures and in their arrival procedures ever since the last war. They have always advertised the training that they offer.

I have often said on here that the trial run is the most important part of a boatyard's whole operation. All the other work that you do, all through the year, revolves around getting the customer familiarised, comfortable, and happy with the handling of the boat. That way they enjoy their holiday and that way they come back and book again, year after year.

A good trial run means less damage, less breakdown call-outs, less winter maintenance, less engine wear and fuel consumption, less wash and hopefully, better customer behaviour.

There are those on this thread at the moment who are far too keen to try and make our traditional hire fleet and boatbuilding businesses look as though we came down with the last shower of rain.

 

[CambridgeCabby]

On 23/09/2020 at 22:49, Broads01 said:

I don't agree. There's a time for staying north or staying south and indeed last month I had a brilliant week staying north. However, I don't find crossing Breydon stressful in the least, albeit with many years' experience and it's part of the tapestry of fun that makes up a Broads holiday. For every incident like this, thousands of Breydon crossings are made without issue. 

during our hiring years we found huge differences in “the hand over” ranging from in depth and impressive (Russell Craft) to here’s the keys ((Kingfisher) ,and everywhere in between.

Im an avid reader and actually made a point of reading the captains manual back to back our first evening aboard again the information contained within varied greatly .

currently due to covid the yards (as I am led to believe but stand to be corrected) have removed these manuals and replaced with an online version .

the information is there for the hirers , sadly not so the inclination to absorb it 

[vanessan]

4 minutes ago, CambridgeCabby said:

currently due to covid the yards (as I am led to believe but stand to be corrected) have removed these manuals and replaced with an online version .

Are you actually saying that you understand there is no Skipper’s Manual on board any hire boat at present? That can’t be right surely?

[tim]

We had one on Pacific Princess this year

[Meantime]

29 minutes ago, CambridgeCabby said:

currently due to covid the yards (as I am led to believe but stand to be corrected) have removed these manuals and replaced with an online version .

 

Surely if that were the case they would just print another set of copies and rotate them at handover and leave one set in storage for the week to sanitise? No different to the policy of quaranting returned books to the library where they are set aside for three days.

[Poppy]

19 minutes ago, EastCoastIPA said:

Surely if that were the case they would just print another set of copies and rotate them at handover and leave one set in storage for the week to sanitise? No different to the policy of quaranting returned books to the library where they are set aside for three days.

Oh but the cost

[CambridgeCabby]

A Herbert woods boat told me that they had removed them and put them online 

[Vaughan]

19 hours ago, RealWindmill said:

I learnt to sail on a dinghy sailing holiday in the Greek Islands when a teenager. It was a course but also still a holiday. Next time I went I was competent and licensed to be solo.

 

Agreed this is not aimed at the large high tech behemoths that you mention but it shows how involved Blakes were in training and in tutored holiday courses, as long ago as 1975.

In fact, the first inland waterway courses of this kind were run by John Loynes, before WW1 and before the turn of the 20th century.  He hired out groups of half deck yachts which went out together on a planned itinerary every day, accompanied by a large cabin yacht, which would do the catering, on the river bank, store all the clothing and bedding and accommodate the instructors.  The hirers would sleep two to a boat, in sleeping bags on the floorboards, under an awning over the half- deckers.  A wonderful way to see the Broads and true "flotilla sailing" almost a century before the modern expression was invented.

Could we still do this now on the Broads?  Of Course!

If someone wanted to create a market for it . . . 

[Poppy]

30 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

 

Agreed this is not aimed at the large high tech behemoths that you mention but it shows how involved Blakes were in training and in tutored holiday courses, as long ago as 1975.

In fact, the first inland waterway courses of this kind were run by John Loynes, before WW1 and before the turn of the 20th century.  He hired out groups of half deck yachts which went out together on a planned itinerary every day, accompanied by a large cabin yacht, which would do the catering, on the river bank, store all the clothing and bedding and accommodate the instructors.  The hirers would sleep two to a boat, in sleeping bags on the floorboards, under an awning over the half- deckers.  A wonderful way to see the Broads and true "flotilla sailing" almost a century before the modern expression was invented.

Could we still do this now on the Broads?  Of Course!

If someone wanted to create a market for it . . . 

It is still done on the Broads. Some have more interest in developing the market responsibly than others !

https://www.eastwood-whelpton.co.uk/training/introductory

RYA training is also offered here.

[Meantime]

Hunters also do a range of training courses.

https://www.huntersyard.co.uk/learn-sailing/cabin-conversion-course/

https://www.huntersyard.co.uk/sailing-holidays/

 

[Poppy]

So what's stopping the others ?

[NeilB]

We had a skippers manual on a Herbert Woods boat this summer, had a week from 1st August.

[SteveP]

1 hour ago, CambridgeCabby said:

 

currently due to covid the yards (as I am led to believe but stand to be corrected) have removed these manuals and replaced with an online version .

 

We had one with Silverline last month

[marshman]

Hunters punters and indeed EW are not necessarily all the better for it, as it is optional. My guess is that if you were to ask them, they still have as many incidents as previously, before the courses were available.

Tuition is no guarantee to stopping accidents and incidents sometimes beyond their control.

Although I doubt a Skippers Handbook is a guarantee either, I would suggest that HW revisit their approach to just putting it online, if that has actually happened. It may not happen every time but perhaps some may wish to refer to the book whilst afloat after they have had the handover so then what do they do given the erratic mobile signal etc etc. In fact I would think that it would be prudent of them to revisit that decision if that has resulted in the change of policy - seems retrograde to me!( Apologies to HW and others if it has not happened )

[vanessan]

1 hour ago, CambridgeCabby said:

A Herbert woods boat told me that they had removed them and put them online 

I wonder how many hirers will actually bother to look at them online whilst on the boat! I think I would prefer to have something I could guarantee I could pick up and look at at the drop of a hat rather than rely on getting a decent enough signal to look online. 

[vanessan]

Sorry marshman, just read your post, we think along the same lines.

[RealWindmill]

 

 

1 hour ago, Vaughan said:

 

Agreed this is not aimed at the large high tech behemoths that you mention but it shows how involved Blakes were in training and in tutored holiday courses, as long ago as 1975.

In fact, the first inland waterway courses of this kind were run by John Loynes, before WW1 and before the turn of the 20th century.  He hired out groups of half deck yachts which went out together on a planned itinerary every day, accompanied by a large cabin yacht, which would do the catering, on the river bank, store all the clothing and bedding and accommodate the instructors.  The hirers would sleep two to a boat, in sleeping bags on the floorboards, under an awning over the half- deckers.  A wonderful way to see the Broads and true "flotilla sailing" almost a century before the modern expression was invented.

Could we still do this now on the Broads?  Of Course!

If someone wanted to create a market for it . . . 

Yes Vaughan , that's pretty similar to my overall suggestion of guided tuition on your first time Broads cruise.

Some have misunderstood my talk of a Trainer Skipper disturbing the yard H/O and costing the yards money. Not at all, my version is the trainer Skipper being onboard the WHOLE holiday of a very first time boaters hire - esp on a large powerful motorboat. Exactly as Charter Yachts operate in the Med.

Next holiday on the Broads the hirers are then considered competent and have a piece of paper to say so, after some real in depth  hands on tuition first time round. Well able to go out 'solo' now.

No H/O disruption and as the Charter Skipper is a free agent he has negotiated his own rate with the hirer, so no cost to the yard. 

People have to do this if they want to fly planes or scuba dive. What's the difference with large motorboats.

( i also realise its impossible at present due Covid )

Far from provoking controversy I like to think i'm thinking 'outside the box' here.

[marshman]

So far out of the box, I suspect that it is totally impractical IMHO - it would kill the industry overnight but more importantly, would not prevent accidents - by their very nature accidents are entirely unpredictable and good drivers still have accidents - or am  I mistaken??

And worst of all largely unnecessary! Would you include the canals also in your scheme? And worst of all, even a bit a paper does not mean you will not be involved in an incident that you came upon out of the blue. Some novices might cope easily whilst even some "ticketed" skippers would be useless in a similar situation.

No I am afraid even a weeks study would not improve some punters skills - in any case I believe the dangers are being overexaggerated now!!

[Vaughan]

7 minutes ago, RealWindmill said:

Some have misunderstood my talk of a Trainer Skipper disturbing the yard H/O and costing the yards money. Not at all, my version is the trainer Skipper being onboard the WHOLE holiday of a very first time boaters hire - esp on a large powerful motorboat. Exactly as Charter Yachts operate in the Med.

So you need to take your thinking into the next stage.

Charter yachts in the Caribbean or Med, which I have crewed on in the late 60s, are big enough to have accommodation for the owner and his wife in an aft cabin, the crew in the fo'csle and the charterers in 3 double cabins amidships! Translate that onto the Broads and you are talking about a wherry yacht. 

A motor cruiser with a skipper (and we have looked into this concept in France) would have to have separate accommodation, presumably aft along with the galley, so that he (or she) could cater for them as well.  You can't just have him bunking down in the saloon!  So you are definitely talking of a cruiser of the size of what you would call a behemoth but in order to provide this layout, would only accommodate about 4 berths for hirers. 

In France we didn't find this idea to be commercial, so we left the concept to the large converted hotel barges, which glide down the canal offering their exclusively American clients all the possible luxuries and services without having to lift a finger to help themselves.

Maybe you are forgetting that the boating holiday on the Broads or English canals is an adventure holiday. An activity holiday where half the fun of it is just that?