Another Incident At Grt Yarmouth I'm Afraid.

[RealWindmill]

6 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

 

If you really want to know, when I was chairman of the technical committee of Blakes Holidays in the 70s, I wrote the original draft of what became approved by the River Commissioners as installation safety standards for all boats on the Broads.  This was later adopted by the NRA for all UK waterways and has now become the present day BSS.  I am pleased to see that in its main detail, it is the same document that I originally presented.

 

In my turn may I say congratulations. I'm sure every boater understands and appreciates how safe the equipment and features are onboard boats today due to the BSS. Thank you for your input to that cause as detailed above (sincerely).

Which is why I'm at a loss to understand your reluctance to push the boundaries even further and go the extra mile to implement more safety into the boating world. My only conclusion is that you say it would be expensive and maybe a bit of a faff to do.

[Meantime]

12 hours ago, FreedomBoatingHols said:

There are many problems with the recovery charge; I fully support the concept as it exists in most other walks of life - screw up and you pay to sort it; it's standard stuff. The BUT is the acceptance of responsibility by whoever is responsible. There will be few people that are totally honest enough to say "Yep, my bad, here's my card". They will say, "It veered of to the left" or "the engine was playing up and in my panic to get safe, we ploughed into the marker post and put a hole in the boat, prove otherwise.". 

 

I fully accept that actually making someone pay the recovery charge, or proving they should pay might be problematic, however if it focus's the mind then it could help. What I mean by that is that the hirers are sitting on their boat and planning their next days trip which will involve crossing Breydon. One of them remembers that if they get stuck they could be liable to a £500 recovery charge, which starts a conversation and they dig out the manual or The Broadcaster and reread again how to cross safely. They refresh their memory and do manage to cross safely and ergo there is no need to even get as far as worrying how or if the hire yard could collect the recovery fee or prove neglect. It won't work for everyone, but if it helped a few stay off the mud.

[MauriceMynah]

@realWindmill

I don't know the profit margins the hire industry "enjoys" but I doubt very much it would cover the costs of employing the number of "training staff" that would be needed to implement your suggestion. IMO

To everybody,   I would say that a layman making a suggestion to a professional in any field, is to be encouraged, but if the professional  does not take it up, the layperson should not take offence, nor (in my opinion) should that layperson expect to hear a reason why.

 

[Meantime]

RealWindMill's suggestions on training have got me thinking about it from a different angle and posed a whole load of questions in my mind that may well open a can of worms, but I shall ask them anyway. Please bear in mind I genuinely don't know the answers and am asking for the best of intentions, so please don't shoot me down in flames, or accuse me of being anti hire yard.

Looking around various hire yards over the years the people doing the handovers seem to range in age from the very experienced older time served mechanic, yard hand or manager, to some that appear to be doing a Summer job whilst on a break from university.

Which got me thinking is there any kind of formalised training or certification for those doing the handovers? If not, should there be? Is the competency of the person doing the handover evaluated from time to time? Is the name of the person doing the handover recorded against the customer being inducted? When incidents are recorded however minor or major, do the BA compile stats that correlate back to the yard who hired the boat, or perhaps to the person who did the induction? This is not a witch hunt, but if a possible area of weakness could be identified, it could be addressed.

[Poppy]

Excellent idea IPA !

[RealWindmill]

 

12 minutes ago, MauriceMynah said:

@realWindmill

I don't know the profit margins the hire industry "enjoys" but I doubt very much it would cover the costs of employing the number of "training staff" that would be needed to implement your suggestion. IMO

To everybody,   I would say that a layman making a suggestion to a professional in any field, is to be encouraged, but if the professional  does not take it up, the layperson should not take offence, nor (in my opinion) should that layperson expect to hear a reason why.

 

My "training persons" would be self employed , a bit like Boat Surveyors doing the BSS checks. They could perhaps negotiate outside of the hire yard charges'

As for professionals,  well remember the old joke, An expert is defined as " A has-been under pressure" ( Ex - spurt).  

edit to put in Jokes section if you like.

[JennyMorgan]

The 'industry' does have influence via the Navigation Committee. The industry is able to put pressure on the Authority.

The navigation posts on Breydon need to be clearly numbered and those numbers maintained. They should also feature clear top marks, cones or cans, traditional shapes.

Two charts could be carried by every hire boat crossing Breydon. Those charts should feature the numbered posts. One chart would be from Yarmouth, the other to Yarmouth. The hirer would be advised to tick off each post as they pass it. Clear instructions should indicate on which side of the boat the post should be. This should be promoted as a fun thing to do as well as being a safety activity. 

There would be an initial cost but subsequent costs would be minimal.

[marshman]

I think this is disappointing to say the least that some people seem unable to accept that whatever precautions you take, accidents will happen!  Sadly.  Eventually officialdom will stick its oar in, and will "interfere" and produce  recommendations that cause a lot of angst and in the overall scheme of things, make little or no difference - simply because people will find their way round them or indeed they are not really fit for purpose, or more probably, that they are in effect impractical! Just listen to those who probably know better than you, Andy and Vaughan especially!

I am minded to point you towards the stability requirements that came in following the sad incident concerning the day boat on the Bure - has that improved anything? Not a jot! Even the wherries had to submit themselves to extraordinary testing to prove they couldn't capsize, yet we happily hire canoes still which can capsize at the drop of a hat!

I read talk on here of "guided convoys" across Breydon - can you imagine the dangers of forming a convoy up in the constrained channel above the Yacht Station or down near the yellow post? 

One thing however we need to do is for the Forums to always respond to people asking advice on Breydon, to NOT continue to give out information that is misleading! Yes crossing Breydon is easy - but follow the advice given! Cross at slack or slackish and you will come to little harm, nor will you go aground! Listen to the old rules - they are frequently the best! No - its not a doddle as some here profess - as .."all you need is to open the throttle more, it will cost you more.." but you can still do it!

 Lets reintroduce the measure of caution that even the old hands still observe - just cross when it is best advised. Its not your schedule thats important but occasionally, lives. Remember the advice to cross at slack - that advise is for a reason.

[RealWindmill]

6 minutes ago, Poppy said:

Excellent idea IPA !

Agreed.

[JennyMorgan]

18 minutes ago, MauriceMynah said:

I don't know the profit margins the hire industry "enjoys" but I doubt very much it would cover the costs of employing the number of "training staff" that would be needed to implement your suggestion. IMO

There could actually be a cost saving to the industry as just one training advisor could instruct several dozen hirers at a time thus overall change over times, thus costs, could be reduced. 

[marshman]

I like JM's idea about charts but add to it the advice to cross at slack, and that will help!!!!!

Any additional verbal instruction at takeover will be a waste of time, or additional qualifications of those giving them, will be ineffective simply because it depends entirely on the person receiving the instruction. If he is not listening, he is just not listening however crucial or whoever gives it!

[Poppy]

3 minutes ago, marshman said:

 

I am minded to point you towards the stability requirements that came in following the sad incident concerning the day boat on the Bure - has that improved anything? Not a jot! Even the wherries had to submit themselves to extraordinary testing to prove they couldn't capsize, yet we happily hire canoes still which can capsize at the drop of a hat!

 

But there are those of considerable influence who greatly adore canoes . ( Would that hat to which you refer be anything like this ? )   

[JennyMorgan]

1 minute ago, Poppy said:

But there are those of considerable influence who greatly adore canoes . ( Would that hat to which you refer be anything like this ? )   

Surely it would be a battered leather cowboy hat?

[RealWindmill]

3 minutes ago, marshman said:

I think this is disappointing to say the least that some people seem unable to accept that whatever precautions you take, accidents will happen!  Sadly.  Eventually officialdom will stick its oar in, and will "interfere" and produce  recommendations that cause a lot of angst and in the overall scheme of things, make little or no difference - simply because people will find their way round them or indeed they are not really fit for purpose, or more probably, that they are in effect impractical! Just listen to those who probably know better than you, Andy and Vaughan especially!

I am minded to point you towards the stability requirements that came in following the sad incident concerning the day boat on the Bure - has that improved anything? Not a jot! Even the wherries had to submit themselves to extraordinary testing to prove they couldn't capsize, yet we happily hire canoes still which can capsize at the drop of a hat!

I read talk on here of "guided convoys" across Breydon - can you imagine the dangers of forming a convoy up in the constrained channel above the Yacht Station or down near the yellow post? 

One thing however we need to do is for the Forums to always respond to people asking advice on Breydon, to NOT continue to give out information that is misleading! Yes crossing Breydon is easy - but follow the advice given! Cross at slack or slackish and you will come to little harm, nor will you go aground! Listen to the old rules - they are frequently the best! No - its not a doddle as some here profess - as .."all you need is to open the throttle more, it will cost you more.." but you can still do it!

 Lets reintroduce the measure of caution that even the old hands still observe - just cross when it is best advised. Its not your schedule thats important but occasionally, lives. Remember the advice to cross at slack - that advise is for a reason.

Which is exactly why I postulated several posts back that people should always be referring to the excellent page in the Broadcaster about Breydon. Should be tattooed onto their foreheads. One thing the BA get right and do very well IMO is information and advice.

If people can't or won't listen then train them. I would guarantee that in many cases it would improve and enrich their whole boating experience and enjoyment.

[Poppy]

7 minutes ago, JennyMorgan said:

Surely it would be a battered leather cowboy hat?

I couldn't find a picture of one of those 

[marshman]

Sadly, despite your assertions to the contrary, RM, that won't "guarantee" much. People still make basic mistakes after passing their driving tests and have tragic accidents! The driving test is much more difficult than it used to be - is the standard of driving better? Most would say no so its not as simple as you would suggest I fear!!

[Poppy]

7 minutes ago, RealWindmill said:

Which is exactly why I postulated several posts back that people should always be referring to the excellent page in the Broadcaster about Breydon. Should be tattooed onto their foreheads. One thing the BA get right and do very well IMO is information and advice.

If people can't or won't listen then train them. I would guarantee that in many cases it would improve and enrich their whole boating experience and enjoyment.

Sadly that's not what so many come for

[RealWindmill]

6 minutes ago, marshman said:

Sadly, despite your assertions to the contrary, RM, that won't "guarantee" much. People still make basic mistakes after passing their driving tests and have tragic accidents! The driving test is much more difficult than it used to be - is the standard of driving better? Most would say no so its not as simple as you would suggest I fear!!

You're right of course MM . Nothing can completely eliminate mistakes and accidents.

My guarantee comments was more to improve their enjoyment in much the same way as anyone with a new task or skill to master will get great job satisfaction in doing the job successfully.

[RealWindmill]

15 minutes ago, RealWindmill said:

Which is exactly why I postulated several posts back that people should always be referring to the excellent page in the Broadcaster about Breydon. Should be tattooed onto their foreheads. One thing the BA get right and do very well IMO is information and advice.

If people can't or won't listen then train them. I would guarantee that in many cases it would improve and enrich their whole boating experience and enjoyment.

 

6 minutes ago, Poppy said:

Sadly that's not what so many come for

So what do they come for - to have a bad time.

[Smoggy]

I would never have hired a boat years ago if it involved a lengthy course and a test before I could take off, and had I not hired I wouldn't be boating now 20 years later.

[JennyMorgan]

11 minutes ago, Poppy said:

I couldn't find a picture of one of those 

I could, with the face of a well known proponent of the dreaded BNP beneath it! 

[Poppy]

4 minutes ago, RealWindmill said:

 

So what do they come for - to have a bad time.

The popularity of 'Pub' moorings should tell you the answer to that !

[JennyMorgan]

12 minutes ago, Poppy said:

Sadly that's not what so many come for

Perhaps if the Authority would go back to marketing Broads holidays as Broads holidays.

[Poppy]

3 minutes ago, JennyMorgan said:

Perhaps if the Authority would go back to marketing Broads holidays as Broads holidays.

Which particular clause of the  Norfolk and Suffolk Broads Act 1988 covered that ?

[grendel]

the thing we have to look at is the perspective of risk/cost analysis, is the cure a financially viable option?

many years ago due to a number of incidents using stanley knives, they were banned by my company, at the time i used one to cut foamboard to make up signs - mostly safety signs.

i questioned what would i now use to cut this, and was told to go find a safe alternative.

i went away and the cheapest safe alternative was a mechanically interlocked guillotine, at a cost of £14,000.

two days after submitting this option i was issued with a pair of kevlar gloves and a stanley knife and told for goodness sake be careful.

upon seeing the kevlar gloves a colleague put them on and proceeded to test them by stabbing his hand with the stanley knife, upon which he was heard to proclaim ow, as the point went straight through the kevlar knit, you cant legislate against sheer idiocy.

what can we learn from these two incidents, dont go swimming behind a boat with the engine running, and when mooring up, take it slow and if you are deck crew, always hang on to something.