Another Incident At Grt Yarmouth I'm Afraid.

[Vaughan]

8 minutes ago, marshman said:

No I am afraid even a weeks study would not improve some punters skills - in any case I believe the dangers are being overexaggerated now!!

I most certainly agree with you there!

[RealWindmill]

9 minutes ago, marshman said:

So far out of the box, I suspect that it is totally impractical IMHO - it would kill the industry overnight but more importantly, would not prevent accidents - by their very nature accidents are entirely unpredictable and good drivers still have accidents - or am  I mistaken??

And worst of all largely unnecessary! Would you include the canals also in your scheme? And worst of all, even a bit a paper does not mean you will not be involved in an incident that you came upon out of the blue. Some novices might cope easily whilst even some "ticketed" skippers would be useless in a similar situation.

No I am afraid even a weeks study would not improve some punters skills - in any case I believe the dangers are being overexaggerated now!!

Impractical - maybe. How do you know ?

Kill the industry - How ?

Of course accidents will still happen, but there are a lot less road traffic accidents because people are taught to drive and have to show in depth knowledge of the Highway Code.

No - just talking about the Broads.

Agree with you the dangers are overexaggerated but the BA are on a mission and a charm offensive to make the Broads safer. I'm just adding my tuppence worth of what could help them in their goals. 

[grendel]

1 hour ago, Poppy said:

So what's stopping the others ?

most dont have sailing boats, marthams also offer sailing tuition.

[Poppy]

1 minute ago, grendel said:

most dont have sailing boats, marthams also offer sailing tuition.

I wasn't refering to just the Sailing yards.

[grendel]

marthams were still doing manuals they were encapsulated and easy to clean.

[grendel]

but the ones you quoted that do skippered sails dont generally have cruisers

[RealWindmill]

5 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

 

A motor cruiser with a skipper (and we have looked into this concept in France) would have to have separate accommodation, presumably aft along with the galley, so that he (or she) could cater for them as well.  You can't just have him bunking down in the saloon!  So you are definitely talking of a cruiser of the size of what you would call a behemoth but in order to provide this layout, would only accommodate about 4 berths for hirers. 

 

Maybe you are forgetting that the boating holiday on the Broads or English canals is an adventure holiday. An activity holiday where half the fun of it is just that?

So be it. If first timer has to have a boat with the extra accommodation then that's how it is. Remember its for one vacation only.

What fun is there in having unpleasant or frightening experiences which may put you off the Broads for good. Learning may be all part of the fun for some. And you you may have a happy customer who comes back for many years to come and help the hireyards profits. (esp with staycation with us).

[WherryNice]

Just adding a few of my thoughts on all this......

If the proposed accompanied tuition model were to be adopted(which does actually sound like a good solid solution - in theory), are there some 300 (40% of 800)odd qualified, self employed instructors available to take up the role?

I would certainly like to see such a scheme offered on a voluntary take up basis for those who wished to really get the best from their holidays but I can see that making it compulsory would likely put off the more casual/last minute holiday maker, which would no doubt have a detrimental effect on the hire industry.

A question for those in the trade, I don't suppose it would be workable but has a Yarmouth/Breydon pilot service ever been considered? 

 

[Meantime]

35 minutes ago, marshman said:

- in any case I believe the dangers are being overexaggerated now!!

That was far from the view that was being put forward at today's Broads Authority meeting. A view put forward by more than just one member. I sensed an appetite for action. I really wish these meetings were recorded, but you might find the minutes interesting when they are published.

[Wussername]

I mentioned several months ago that there needed to be an accreditation for those who conduct trial runs, in the past so often the trial run would  befall those who might well have had the skills to  drive a boat but an inability to teach.

Take the river Ant at Stalham,  a completely different scenario that you will experience at say Reedham, Great Yarmouth, St Olaves and yet I have come across trial run drivers who have never been on the southern rivers or indeed had any real experience of the broads.

Conversely, at some boat yards you will find individuals who are very experienced, knowledgeable, and are able to communicate their skill.

If you care to observe from the quay heading or river bank, engage in conversation you will soon discover that sometimes there can be difference in the quality of the trial run. Perhaps this needs to be addressed.

In the first instance I am not advocating in any shape or form certification for the boat hirer or private owner. It simply would be unworkable and virtually impossible to monitor and control.

But there does need to be an identification and introduction of a basic skill set, common to ALL boat yards and all hirers and in the fullness of time private owners which is taught at an intermediate level. In simple terms everybody is flying information, singing from the same song sheet. Once that has been established it will be a step forward in implementing a defined and disciplined approach to the issue.

There needs to be guidance with regard to the format of this proposal.  We have at our disposal some 26 years of data relating to incidents in order that that should be able to assist in making an informed decision as to which matters take priority for example Embarkation/Disembarkation features prominently amongst  injuries requiring hospitalisation with some 33 admissions last year. There are of course other matters to consider.

As for documenting previous experience then a system is already in place. After the trial run has been completed a tick sheet is filled in for the boatyards record. Simply hand a copy to the hirer, signed by both parties and date stamped. Such a document could be filed by the recipient as a record to be shown on a future occasion. A log book if you will giving confirmation of previous experience.

In conclusion it must always be recognised that when compared with many recreational pursuits boating on the broads has an enviable safety record despite the dreadful incidents over the last few weeks.

A few days ago the Broads Authority stated that Mr Packman in consultation with the hire industry and the boating community in general will be seeking ways to improve on a range of issues for the benefit of us all and in this respect the hire boat industry together with the private sector will once again demonstrate their ability to make a positive contribution.

But as in all things we must be careful not to "over egg the pudding"

[marshman]

We have now gone from one extreme to the other - not so long ago, and I have commented on this before today, anyone who preached caution about going through Yarmouth at anything other than slack was frequently overridden by others saying not a lot can happen if you go through other times.

Now we have swung to the other extreme - its not a dangerous waterway (Cat 2 I believe) but that does not mean you do not treat it with respect. By all means offer a piloted service if you think it necessary (who is going to bring him /her back?) and how many trips should be done a tide? ) to those who want it but remember during a normal season, the number of days where a pilot would be useful even to those who are scared witless, is probably relatively limited  - perhaps 15/20 at the most?

So lets put on our realistic hats please - by all means provide better charts and perhaps a Breydon pack as suggested by JM, and encourage people to cross as always was, at slack, and see if that has an impact. Make wearing of lifejackets easier by encouraging ALL yards to include auto inflates as standard and suggest wearing of said aids is recommended especially for those less experienced, and especially for mooring up. It has improved but not by enough, sad to say.

But please, no bits of worthless paper, no more silly rules not helping one iota, and accept, reluctantly that their will always be idiots who you just cannot cater for , let alone advise! Unfortunately!

[Mouldy]

40 minutes ago, RealWindmill said:

 . . . . . .Of course accidents will still happen, but there are a lot less road traffic accidents because people are taught to drive and have to show in depth knowledge of the Highway Code. . . . . 

Which, judging by the general standard of driving on the roads of the UK, is forgotten as soon as the successful candidates leave the test centre.  Despite their ‘in depth knowledge’ accidents still happen and lives are lost every day on the roads.

Whatever you try to do to mitigate the potential for RTCs, they still happen and will continue to happen, in the same way as something unexpected will happen on the rivers which will result in tragic consequences, however stringent you make the training.

[MotorBoater]

Listening to John Packman this morning I was left with the impression that they have a firm idea of safety areas to research but left me wondering from the proposed approach if they had actually done it before.

I have been following this thread with great interest but am now growing tired of the carping about what the boatyards should be doing and their qualifications for doing it.

Hire boats may be a major source of incidents, I don't know, but are we saying private owners are blameless ?

Nearly fifty years of dealing with Joe Public face to face leaves me in no doubt that even if you chain him to a desk watching videos, writing test papers and issue fancy certificates at the end of it, all you are doing is delaying the inevitable.

All he wants is to do his own thing. When he bumps the boat next door pulling out from the yard mooring, bangs his rear end against something, or somebody, when turning and runs aground ignoring posts and signs all the pretty paper certifies is that it is their fault, they've been taught otherwise but decided they know better.

The yards don't send people out to be injured or to die, and to even imply otherwise should, not could, result in them looking up solicitors phone numbers.

The First Motorboater Law Of Consequences says More = More.

More traffic on the roads means more accidents, more covid testing means more positive results and more boats on the broads means more idiots.

The boatyards have many years of handing boats over to punters and have evolved their current methods due to that experience. I, for one, will not presume to know better. If they are required to change tack it will have to come from on high and the question has be from whom.

The marine investigation people have decided to investigate one fatality but not another, this should not be right.

All accidents, lethal or otherwise, should be reportable and investigated thoroughly. The boatyard handover checklists could easily be compared to what the punter says he was told, or not.

The Broads Authority are doing their thing, local councils often like to stick their oar in, the marine investigators are deciding what they will or will not do. Just who exactly is responsible for legally enforceable safety guidelines on the water in the manner of the Health and Safety Executive ? Maybe they should have a marine branch too, just to complicate things further.

Maybe Wussername has valid arguments for accredited trial run instructors, once you sort out who they are accredited to. Maybe over time, on the quieter days in the yard,  that could morph into day courses for anyone interested in learning about boating on the broads. They would however have to be cheap enough to make people want to travel to the experience.

In the meantime anyone in the La-La land of skippered boat hire is of course at liberty to put their money where their mouth is and start their own yard. 

On the subject of Boat Manuals I offer the following from Richardsons 2020.  85 pages of pretty solid info and not a difficult read at all.

 

[marshman]

Glad to see all of that - shame some cannot read!!!!

[Poppy]

23 minutes ago, marshman said:

Glad to see all of that - shame some cannot read!!!!

Or won't read !

[RealWindmill]

38 minutes ago, MotorBoater said:

 

In the meantime anyone in the La-La land of skippered boat hire is of course at liberty to put their money where their mouth is and start their own yard. 

 

That's actually quite an offensive comment - you're right to hide behind that sofa.

Nobody needs start a new yard. The Charter Skipper contract would be between hirer and skipper, no yard involvement needed except to approve the extra person onboard and, again, for one holiday hire only - in the hirers entire life.

[RealWindmill]

 

 

1 hour ago, Mouldy said:

Which, judging by the general standard of driving on the roads of the UK, is forgotten as soon as the successful candidates leave the test centre.  Despite their ‘in depth knowledge’ accidents still happen and lives are lost every day on the roads.

 

And however much more road carnage do you think there would be if there were no driving test or licensing at all ?

[rightsaidfred]

Sorry but we are now getting way out of the bounds of reality, how many families or groups would want  a stranger sharing a broads boat with them, the whole point of a boating holiday is the freedom it allows.

Listening to some we are now just one step away from requiring every hirer to undertake a health and safety risk assessment, people on holiday are just that they don`t want the restrictions they face the rest of the year, instruct, regulate, legislate all you like something somewhere will go wrong it only takes a moments lapse of concentration or misjudgement, accidents happen because that`s what they are, tragedies that happen because of stupidity will still happen because some totally disregard what most regard as responsible behaviour.

Fred

[YnysMon]

I don’t think I would ever have discovered the Broads if the extra expense of a Skipper was necessary. Are you proposing to make the Broads the exclusive preserve of those who can afford such things?
Anyway, I doubt that those who can afford it would bother with the Broads. They are probably hiring boats abroad.

[RealWindmill]

5 minutes ago, rightsaidfred said:

Sorry but we are now getting way out of the bounds of reality, how many families or groups would want  a stranger sharing a broads boat with them, the whole point of a boating holiday is the freedom it allows.

Well , you are obviously not aware of how Charter Boat operations work .

You, the hirer, charter the Skipper, he works for you on the boat. You decide your itinary, which pub to stop at et cetera. He works for you on your boat and follows your orders. His role is to impart to you his nautical knowledge and skills so you can have a chilled and relaxing holiday. Nothing more. He is as big or small a part of your crew as you decide.  And learn along the way for your next 'solo' boat hire.

[RealWindmill]

11 minutes ago, YnysMon said:

I don’t think I would ever have discovered the Broads if the extra expense of a Skipper was necessary. Are you proposing to make the Broads the exclusive preserve of those who can afford such things?
Anyway, I doubt that those who can afford it would bother with the Broads. They are probably hiring boats abroad.

So does it all just come down to money in the end ?

[Mouldy]

16 minutes ago, RealWindmill said:

And however much more road carnage do you think there would be if there were no driving test or licensing at all ?

No one mentioned that there shouldn’t be licensing or tests for drivers, but the point is that we all go through the process and remember what we want to.  When I drive at the National speed limit, I am not surprised at the number of other drivers that overtake me.  It’s fair to assume that the vast majority of them have taken and passed a driving test and have read the Highway Code in order to answer the questions.  If any proof were needed that they have chosen to ignore the law, that is surely it.

It follows that even if mandatory instruction on the rules of the waterways and boat handling were to be introduced, there would be an element of their number who would ignore the instructions and do it their way anyway.  
 

[Cheesey69]

Yes it does come down to money. 
You be an idiot if you think it didn’t. 
You could make any activity safe if you throw enough money at it but would you want to do it?

 

[Cheesey69]

I’m RYA qualified off shore sailer don’t make me any good. 
Just means I can describe my accident better. 

[Mouldy]

36 minutes ago, RealWindmill said:

Well , you are obviously not aware of how Charter Boat operations work .

You, the hirer, charter the Skipper, he works for you on the boat. You decide your itinary, which pub to stop at et cetera. He works for you on your boat and follows your orders. His role is to impart to you his nautical knowledge and skills so you can have a chilled and relaxing holiday. Nothing more. He is as big or small a part of your crew as you decide.  And learn along the way for your next 'solo' boat hire.

So, if I wanted to be a Skipper, what would the appropriate cost to the hirer be, given that he or she would already have faced additional costs to hire a craft with additional facilities to accommodate me?  
Let’s say £15 per hour based on a 10 hour day, as I’m self employed and would have to arrange my own accounts, tax and National Insurance payments.  So £150 per day for six days.  Who would pay for my food?  The hirer.  
I think almighty holes are appearing in your argument already, in the same way as your arguments for the introduction of electric powered hire craft.  Time to retire gracefully from the discussion, I think.  It is unworkable.