Electrifying The Broads

[DAVIDH]

This is taken from the NBN Facebook page. Surprised it's not been debated on here. I'm sure the initial reaction would be to put it to the back of our minds, but there's a comment in the report which made me think: "Aside from the climate mitigation needs, the biggest risk of not decarbonising the boating sector comes from the loss of the supply chain – small diesel engines are rapidly going out of fashion, and in the absence of a viable supply chain the Broads Boating industry may cease to be viable." 

[ChrisB]

The future of us all is in clean electric, across the whole spectrum of life, work and leisure.

I think, however, that we would be light years ahead of where we now find ourselves if there had been a willingness to embrace nuclear in the past.

 

[Mouldy]

23 minutes ago, ChrisB said:

The future of us all is in clean electric, across the whole spectrum of life, work and leisure.

I think, however, that we would be light years ahead of where we now find ourselves if there had been a willingness to embrace nuclear in the past.

 

I actually don’t think that the future is electric.  Where are all the rare metals etc, required for the batteries going to come from, for a start?  Also, when is the recycling of batteries going to be able to deal with the volumes that are going to be produced?

I watched something on TV just a couple of weeks ago, where the timescale versus environmental impact of producing a vehicle with an internal combustion engine (ICE) was compared to that of an electric vehicle.  Assuming that the EV only had one set of batteries through its lifespan, it wasn’t carbon neutral until it was over twenty years old.  Compare that to an ICE powered car, which became carbon neutral after fifteen years.

There’s currently a lot of hype directed at using electric for everything, but it’s certainly not the best way forward at the moment.  Sadly though, there appears to be little investment in any alternatives.  Once again, a knee jerk, quick fix to something that needs a better thought out solution.

[marshman]

Smaller diesel engines MAY temporarily be going out of fashion in Western Europe but tell that to the rest of the world!!!

 It requires little imagination to see this as nothing short of fanciful - tell that to the farmers in India and almost all of Africa and the remainder of Third World economies. After, and probably indeed during, the forthcoming worldwide recession the benefits of modern diesel engines may well be reassessed - after all pollution from them is minuscule compared to that to be produced by the many coal fired power stations still being built and planned!!! Australia is still planning on expanding its coal exports and its all going to go up in smoke!!!

Don't worry chaps, it won't happen in your lifetimes.  There will always be a few who think PHEV's are the way forward for boats, but even that won't happen anytime soon. Miraculously all these so called deadlines will moved on.

I remember from my school days that we had 3 Ice Ages that reached Norfolk before they retreated again - I wonder what caused the warmer temperatures to do that?

[DAVIDH]

Just got the email: Brinks Prelude, their shortly to be finished, hybrid powered addition to the fleet
https://www.barnesbrinkcraft.co.uk/hire-boats/prelude/?mc_cid=fc0c2637fa&mc_eid=eb82ea0ec7

[Tempest]

An infrastructure that can support mass electric cars, trucks, buses and boats is many years away

All the very best to those who wish to be pioneers, but it's not for me at this time as I believe they are not a viable option and certainly not as great for the environment as the glossy adds try to portray...

 

 

[Vaughan]

I would suggest that you can take their power requirements and charging estimates and double them.  They also make no mention of the shaft horsepower required for a cabin cruiser to safely navigate Yarmouth and Breydon.

They seem to think that an electric boat will cruise for a couple of hours a day and spend the rest of the time plugged into the bank.  It will have to, of course, so that they can power up the microwave oven, electric hob, IR heaters, electric blankets, instant hot water taps, recirculating showers and all the other gadgets.

Sorry, but if this is what a Broads cruising holiday is supposed to be like in future, then it won't work out in practicality and it won't sell to the cruising public.

[Wussername]

1 hour ago, Vaughan said:

I would suggest that you can take their power requirements and charging estimates and double them.  They also make no mention of the shaft horsepower required for a cabin cruiser to safely navigate Yarmouth and Breydon.

They seem to think that an electric boat will cruise for a couple of hours a day and spend the rest of the time plugged into the bank.  It will have to, of course, so that they can power up the microwave oven, electric hob, IR heaters, electric blankets, instant hot water taps, recirculating showers and all the other gadgets.

Sorry, but if this is what a Broads cruising holiday is supposed to be like in future, then it won't work out in practicality and it won't sell to the cruising public.

Basically, it is simply not achievable and will not be for a long, long time. 

[grendel]

the costings they have placed on the electricity supply are all based on an existing supply to the site with sufficient capacity to expand.

as soon as you try to put in electric points at the more remote moorings (and they are saying 2-4 hours cruising time apart) especially down south where the electrical infrastructure may be miles from a mooring, and you are then starting to talk serious money.

then there is the 22kW per boat required at hire yards, say you have on turnaround day 100 boats to be charged, that is 2.2MW (2 and  a bit substations) required, then you will need to obtain an additional 2.2 KW from the local electrical supplier (UKPN), all the while competing with everyone else who wants that capacity for electric car charging.

in rural areas the spare capacity might well be more available than in the more congested (and power hungry) city centres.

the costs for all these infrastructure upgrades will need to be met somewhere, upgrading for a trial may be possible using the current infrastructure, but the conversion of the entire broads to electric is going to be in 10's of millions, if not 100's of millions to achieve.

the only bonus will be that the electric cars of the customers can be charged from the chargers at the boatyard while the customer is away.

by staggering start days they may well be able to manage a bigger yard on a smaller number of charge points, but as they recover the installation costs and energy charges the yard will be facing, i dont see the cost of fuel changing in the downward direction.

 

[Vaughan]

It occurs to me that last year the BA employed a Sustainability Officer (if that was the actual title) to look into such matters and this report is perhaps the result of his efforts so far.  I am afraid I get the impression that he is working from a basis of what he has heard rather than what he knows from experience in the boat business.

Remember what they always used to say about the difference between the expert, and the "man in the street" :

The expert is a man with extensive specialist education, who starts his career knowing a great deal about a very little.  As time goes on he learns more and more about less and less, until he knows anything about nothing.

The man in the street, (such as you and me) relies less on education but more on experience.  So he starts his career knowing a very little about a great deal.  As time goes on he learns less and less about more and more, until in the end, he knows nothing about anything.

 

[rightsaidfred]

What's happened to what started as a compulsory roll out of smart meters that the majority still wont have.

Why is there still a demand for the diesel cars that many of us own and wont get rid of.

Because simply in the real world most  of us live in practicality over rules ideology.

Fred

 

[grendel]

Fred, smart meters have never been compulsory (no matter what the electricity company try and tell you) it is compulsory for them to offer them to you, but its not compulsory for you to accept one.

As an example I am on an economy 7 meter, meaning I get cheaper electricity overnight for 7 hours,

if I were to change to a smart meter, then this tariff would no longer be available to me (though there are other tariffs that are available, I have not found one that offers rates as low as the economy 7 night rate).

Thus the energy company want me to change to a smart meter, so they can get me off of the economy 7 tariff.

If I was able to fit a car charger, I could make full use of that tariff to charge the car at cheap rate overnight. and this would be at a cheaper rate than i can get for a car charging tariff, that the smart meter can control when it charges the car to account for demand, thus overnight if a lot of people plugged their cars in to charge the system would stagger the loads to balance the network, in an extreme case this might leave someone, lacking a full charge, if there has been a large demand overnight (this is one of the factors i personally dislike about the new smart meters, they hand control of your energy consumption over to the energy company.) even if your car had been plugged in for 8 hours, the energy company may have decided not to allow charging for 4 of those hours, and the situation would only get worse the more car chargers were attached to the existing networks.

thus at present I will happily stick with my economy 7 meter, and forgo a smart meter.

 

[Woodie]

I had an email from my energy provider a couple of weeks back stating that from next March the radio signal that controls the dual tariff economy 7 meter will cease!

Consequently they say my meter will be obsolete and I will have to have a smart meter, would I like to book an appointment now!!

No thanks-will hold out as long as possible.

[ranworthbreeze]

Nobody in their right will accept a smart meter and all the previous hype of saying a smart meter will save you money is utter rubbish.

 

[annv]

Hi David Boat engines are derived from agriculture engines not car engines, i cant see electric taking over small digger's and tractor's ever. John 

[Bytheriver]

2 hours ago, Woodie said:

I had an email from my energy provider a couple of weeks back stating that from next March the radio signal that controls the dual tariff economy 7 meter will cease!

Consequently they say my meter will be obsolete and I will have to have a smart meter, would I like to book an appointment now!!

No thanks-will hold out as long as possible.

I had the same info but did change as don't want the hassle of having to submit readings every quarter ( note to self to read water meter)

[Smoggy]

Electrifying the broads is a fantastic idea, would make wild swimming and paddleboarding much more fun to watch as they thrash around with sparks flying....

[rightsaidfred]

Grendel while I agree meters were never legally enforceable the point was the  Government did set target dates for the industry to convert consumers over  which came and went, just hoping I am still around in 2030 to see what happens then.

Fred 

[RS2021]

2 hours ago, Woodie said:

I had an email from my energy provider a couple of weeks back stating that from next March the radio signal that controls the dual tariff economy 7 meter will cease!

I used to be responsible for those signals for one Regional company. When we we planning to switch off its predecessor - a mains-born signal, it was years before the Board would sanction the final switch off. No one wanted to be responsible for the publicity of an elderly person freezing to death because their meter had been missed and their heating no longer came on!

If I remember correctly. The current system which uses Radio 4 will still work without the signal, but it will get out of sync and the time may drift.

[ChrisB]

And...I had smart meters installed ages ago. However they have never been serviced and I can only assume that the batteries are US, because for the last 18 months I have had to submit readings.

When I log into my BG account it says that I am on their waiting list for a smart meter.

 

[grendel]

3 hours ago, Woodie said:

Consequently they say my meter will be obsolete and I will have to have a smart meter, would I like to book an appointment now!!

they are trying every trick to get people to change. I have even had phone calls where I had to quite forcefully tell them I do not want a smart meter.

and remember, if you change suppliers then you will need to change to the new suppliers meter as not all meters can be read by all companies, they each have a different brand read by different software, they cant even seem to standardize that yet.

 

[Cheesey69]

My company uses electric 4x4's.

You be surprised how much range you lose in winter running heating, battery warmers and lights.

This might be an issue with our boats. The batteries suffer badly near freezing conditions.

so it might not be a case of leave the boat over winter without a power source

[Popeye]

I have told my suppliers to stuff their smart meters where sunlight does not penetrate!

They tell me how easy it would be for me than not scrambling under the stairs with a torch etc. My meters are easy to access and I send them a reading once a month, simples! If they want to come and check my readings they will be welcome, I have nothing to hide. My house is fully insulated in the walls and loft and with modern K Glass double glazing and my heating thermostat is in my sitting room and set at 20 degrees, measured by a separate thermometer and not on the thermostat.  

My system is that I have a smart finger, if I am not using something I switch it off, I don't need a sometimes suspect piece of electronic wizardry to tell me what I am spending on my energy.

Now, If they offered me a substantial discount on my fuel prices I may reconsider my situation. Until then the smart finger rules.