Running Engines After Dark.

[Bikertov]

I think part of the issue is that there are new and occasional boaters who genuinely don't have a clue that their actions can cause annoyance. 

They might work out that an engine running late at night to charge batteries can be an issue, but may not realise at all that a heater would cause any noise. They might also not appreciate how much sound travels in the quiet surroundings of a Broads mooring, compared to the busy towns and cities that they come from.

[RumPunch]

I moor in the boatyard opposite Paddy's Lane. I have a small portable diesel heater, suitably silenced, that I'll sit in the cockpit and duct indoors. There have been evenings where I can hear heaters running quite clearly across the 10m or so of water, but if stood on the river bank across from my mooring orr the other side the channel I can't hear mine ( about 5 m )

Maybe they are ducted straight overboard with no silencers ?

That said, I take a more relaxed attitute to noise, and personally say 22:00 on should be subdued

[oldgregg]

2 hours ago, Bikertov said:

They might work out that an engine running late at night to charge batteries can be an issue, but may not realise at all that a heater would cause any noise. They might also not appreciate how much sound travels in the quiet surroundings of a Broads mooring, compared to the busy towns and cities that they come from.

I think that is a big part of it, for sure. Those of us who have lived in Norfolk for a long time and who are used to just how quiet the Broads can be are perhaps much more sensitive to the noise.

It's an interesting one in that boats have actually got noisier - Back in the 80's they had gas fridges and radiant heaters and electrics were only needed for pumps and lighting so a couple of hours a day with the engine at cruising speeds was enough.

I do think the solution is to look at how we ensure enough charging is achieved in an 'average' day's cruising. Fit a larger engine with an overspecced alternator / generator and remove the need for users to have to 'manage' the batteries.

[PaulN]

I agree that diesels heater can be very annoying during the night, especially with crammed stern on moorings. They also run very hot and so I make sure I have a decent sized fender deployed if the adjacent boats heater exhaust is aimed at my hull.

I blame the boat yards for not fitting quiet heaters. 2 boats ago I had an Eberspacher which was noisy, the next boat I owned I had a Webasto Airtop 2000 fitted which was virtually silent outside. My current boat which is my first Broads boat is fitted with a Mikuni which is also very quiet. So it can be done.

[LondonRascal]

11 hours ago, YnysMon said:

If they hadn’t been on shore power there’s no way they could have left the heating on all night.

I thought it rather silly and wasteful to leave it on whilst they were at the pub though. 

When I have been afloat in the winter the heater goes on and remains on 24/7 - often just on low without shore power. I don't want to be cosy and warm only some of the time and at other times be chilly, or come back to a cold boat and have to wait for it to heat back up again to a comfy temperature.  Once running they only consume 2/3Amps as its only the motor running consuming power to distribute the air.

When I lived on Indy in Brundall, the heaters longest run continuously (Beast from the East time) was 6 weeks!

[BroadAmbition]

As and when it gets really cold onboard 'B.A' then I too leave the heater on 24/7 adjusting either the temperature or airflow to suit

The Mikuni we used to have was quiet outside, so is the Planar we now have onboard (Its using the Mikuni exhaust and silencer)

Griff

[JanetAnne]

6 hours ago, oldgregg said:

I think that is a big part of it, for sure. Those of us who have lived in Norfolk for a long time and who are used to just how quiet the Broads can be are perhaps much more sensitive to the noise.

It's an interesting one in that boats have actually got noisier - Back in the 80's they had gas fridges and radiant heaters and electrics were only needed for pumps and lighting so a couple of hours a day with the engine at cruising speeds was enough.

I do think the solution is to look at how we ensure enough charging is achieved in an 'average' day's cruising. Fit a larger engine with an overspecced alternator / generator and remove the need for users to have to 'manage' the batteries.

How about going back to alternators that are geared properly so they attain maximum charge at 'normal' cruising speeds? 

[Broads01]

3 hours ago, LondonRascal said:

When I have been afloat in the winter the heater goes on and remains on 24/7 - often just on low without shore power.

I'm guessing you're well versed on the condition of your batteries, Robin. I suspect though that on a hire boat, even given plenty of hours cruising, it might be pushing my luck for batteries to last the night.

[LondonRascal]

1 hour ago, Broads01 said:

I'm guessing you're well versed on the condition of your batteries, Robin. I suspect though that on a hire boat, even given plenty of hours cruising, it might be pushing my luck for batteries to last the night.

I think it is more about the care and attention to hire boats from the business hey are hired from that counts. I won't name and shame but some have been fine, some were not and swapped without fuss and one company needed shall we say a little more reminding about customer care before the issue was rectified. Most hire boats have at least 3x domestic batteries, many have more - a heater using 2-3Amps when running should not dent the capacity of these banks much over night, if you get 3-4 hours out of the heater before you need to start the engine to produce more power, and you've had many hours of run time during the day, something is very wrong with the batteries.

[oldgregg]

12 hours ago, JanetAnne said:

How about going back to alternators that are geared properly so they attain maximum charge at 'normal' cruising speeds? 

It'd be a good start, yeah.

But I do think the power usage requirements of people these days are higher than ever - And ideally they want electric cooking, kettle etc because it's what they're used to at home.

[Smoggy]

I still struggle with the concept of an electric loo on a boat, I can work a handle at home OK so why is a pump so much harder.

That would make the thought of a flat battery overnight quite horrifying. 

[MauriceMynah]

If you want pampering, stay in an hotel. If you want self catering, hire a boat. If you want all the home comforts of home... stay at home.

People should embrace the differences of living on a boat, not override them.

[Vaughan]

3 hours ago, Smoggy said:

That would make the thought of a flat battery overnight quite horrifying. 

And it is when electric toilets get low on voltage due to weak battery power, that they block up solid.

But it so much nicer than having to pump a handle.

Isn't it?

[Gracie]

Oh MM is so right, the sooner folk realise a boating holiday is exactly that and not a luxury hotel or expect all the comforts of home the better. Surely that's what us boaters want to get away from.

Being afloat is the best thing ever. Hell I'd be happy in a dinghy with an umbrella and a bottle of wine  x

[Bikertov]

3 minutes ago, Gracie said:

Oh MM is so right, the sooner folk realise a boating holiday is exactly that and not a luxury hotel or expect all the comforts of home the better. Surely that's what us boaters want to get away from.

Being afloat is the best thing ever. Hell I'd be happy in a dinghy with an umbrella and a bottle of wine  x

You know what - who even needs a dinghy, or even the umbrella for that matter ... 

[Troyboy]

3 hours ago, MauriceMynah said:

If you want pampering, stay in an hotel. If you want self catering, hire a boat. If you want all the home comforts of home... stay at home.

People should embrace the differences of living on a boat, not override them.

I used to say that to my missus. It's a boat and comes with some compromises. It's about making the best of what you've got. And modern boats are hardly roughing it. As kids in the early 70s I remember the boats not having much at all. A game of cards was good enough.

[Bikertov]

6 minutes ago, Troyboy said:

I used to say that to my missus. It's a boat and comes with some compromises. It's about making the best of what you've got. And modern boats are hardly roughing it. As kids in the early 70s I remember the boats not having much at all. A game of cards was good enough.

My abiding Broads memories as an almost-teenager was on Superline (a Horizon 35 bathtub) from Richardsons

The "toilet" was a seat sitting on top of what seemed like a wooden box, with a "plop and drop" flap at the bottom leading into a murky tank of something you didn't want to see or smell. After you "went", you had to pump the blue chemical to flush any remnants away.

Suffice to say, I held on for as long as I could before using said facilities - a tad challenging when on a boat for 2 weeks !

That is something I do not need to experience again, now that I am older, wiser, and have my own disposable income to chose how to spend.

[NeilB]

32 minutes ago, Bikertov said:

My abiding Broads memories as an almost-teenager was on Superline (a Horizon 35 bathtub) from Richardsons

The "toilet" was a seat sitting on top of what seemed like a wooden box, with a "plop and drop" flap at the bottom leading into a murky tank of something you didn't want to see or smell. After you "went", you had to pump the blue chemical to flush any remnants away.

Suffice to say, I held on for as long as I could before using said facilities - a tad challenging when on a boat for 2 weeks !

That is something I do not need to experience again, now that I am older, wiser, and have my own disposable income to chose how to spend.

Most toilets shared the same space as the shower, with these Hampton toilets the first shower usually started with a large bang and splash accompanied by an “oh s**t” by whoever had dropped the soap down the toilet!!

Never made them smell any better either!!

[Smoggy]

4 hours ago, Vaughan said:

And it is when electric toilets get low on voltage due to weak battery power, that they block up solid.

But it so much nicer than having to pump a handle.

Isn't it?

My 40 year old rm69 has never had a blockage in my ownership (yet), my previous boat had the same and the only blockage I had in 10 years of ownership was blanket weed across the inlet flush water, took 5 minutes to clear and it was just river water.

And I need the exercise. 

[Turnoar]

Sounds like solid state technology, right stool for the job!

[oldgregg]

5 hours ago, Vaughan said:

And it is when electric toilets get low on voltage due to weak battery power, that they block up solid.

But it so much nicer than having to pump a handle.

Isn't it?

Electric flush are popular but I do prefer the simplicity of a mansfield.... Just need to remember to keep some water in the bowl when not in use!

[LondonRascal]

I find it interesting how I am getting older, but rather than 'mellow' or mature and have a more of a laid back 'make do and mend' mentality, I am still leaning towards the less compromise the better it is. I don't think we should be limited to the logic that we are onboard a boat therefore we cant do this or use that. There are simple solutions but you need to decide if the cost is worth the comfort and convenience. When I was looking at a boat to live on, it had to have things like a household type shower and toilet, be able to do laundry and dry it without any 'doing it in the sink' or off to a Laundrette. 

I've just been emailing a UK battery manufacture about their Lithium-Iron marine batteries. They have quoted £1,000, I could replace my three 110ah lead acid batteries for a single battery with a 400Ah capacity - with the ability to use 100% of this capacity 3,000 times or 80% of it 10,000 times. It has built in battery management software and balancing of the cells, and a Bluetooth capability to use an App to see the health and state of charge of the battery at any moment. Because of the onboard chipset you don't need anything fancy between it and the current charging system on a boat, just wire it in and away you go (you would need a Lithium capable shore powered charger mind you).  But do you want to spend £1,000 on a battery and a new shore powered battery charger? Hmm, no I don't think I would but it opens up ideas..

Many new build hire boats are beginning to have Lithium-Iron batteries onboard and this opens up a world of possibilities because they can discharge at incredible amperage loads with no issue, and then likewise re-charge at high very amperages continuously unlike any other battery chemistry. So some of the boats I hired from Barnes as an example, do not have an Alternator providing power to the battery bank, instead a pair provide power to a separate multi-stage charger that then re-charges the domestic batteries rapidly. Then you can have your Nespresso machine (because fewer and fewer households use kettles after all) and so having those connivances of home afloat is important for people spending out on such accommodation.

Now that should not mean the boat needs to run its engine endlessly when moored, but I have found boats equipped with generators/hybrid drives, are very different in sound pollution - firstly no exhaust discharge, its under the water, what you hear most of externally are the large squirrel cooling fan's sucking in and exhausting air from the soundproofed generator bay.  Unlike a diesel engine running and discharging water every few seconds and as it does and the sound of the engine note changing the hybrid boats generator will run smoothly at a set speed and emit the same 'tone' (a bit like white noise to me). I am not saying these boats are 'silent' by any means, but they are not as intrusive outside as BMC 1500 running at a fast tick over in my opinion. Contrary to popular belief, not only can you dictate when the generator kicks in, the boatyard prevent their operation through software between 9pm and 7am - they can even stop the shower sump pump operating after a set time to stop noise, though this is not implemented i was told. These settings can be manually overridden on the distribution panel and I think it is what some hirers do - press and hold the manual override button and start it up regardless of if it is actually needed.

As for toilets, I cannot stand the 'pedal push flap open' type - in fact I have in the past not hired boats if they are fitted with these, the pump-handle ones are okay if maintained (I have one on Trixie and having replaced the seals and pump it is incredibly smooth) but some of the new electric flushing toilets, like that which we have on Broad Ambition now are not only super powerful (and whisper quiet) they use so much less water to flush. 

I guess one easy fix to legacy boats to improve battery performance  - go 24v - then you halve the amperages of anything, from the lights, to the toilet, to the water pump but you'd need 24v versions of these items and a 24v-240v Inverter too.

 

[NeilB]

1 hour ago, LondonRascal said:

 but they are not as intrusive outside as BMC 1500 running at a fast tick over in my opinion.

The hybrid I witnessed coming into Neatishead was worse than a BMC 1.5 at 1500RPM, it was more like a Perkins 4108 at 1500rpm!  As Robin said, correctly specced and installed gensets are barely audible.

[Jeep15]

Hi All.

Newbie here. 

Must agree with London Rascal. 

Love my electric flush toilets, my Coffee maker, my heating in the colder months, not too big on TV but do use it occasionally on the inverter, SWIMBO does use her hair drier and curling brush every day, we also use our vacuum cleaner to rid us of dog hairs and also don't worry a jot about our fridge running all the time we are on board and only need to turn it down when the beer needs to be liquid as opposed to solid. Solid Scotch eggs the other day, yuk.

All this on 330ah domestic battery bank that has not been connected to shore power since Sunday and will not be until this Sunday. Yes we do have solar panels and the weather has been good since we have been out and we have had about 7hours engine running with a 110 amp alternator.

Solar panel controller showing 12. 9v on the battery bank this evening before darkness after not going anywhere at all today.

There is a secret that I wanted to share.

Keep your batteries in good condition regards charge and maintenance and you will be good to go . Just renewed my domestic battery bank this year after 8 years of use. 

Oh an BTW  the last time I had to start my engine to start my heating was around 23 years ago when I had a duff cell in a battery on 2 boats ago when I had only 2 domestic batteries and no solar panels or battery indicator technology.

No need to go overboard on technology, just maintain your batteries.

A lesson a particular hire fleet could do with learning. I will say no more. Moored at a Southern mooring tonight with half and half private and hire boats here with not a single boat running it's engine.

 

 

 

[Smoggy]

I found an easy way to cut the usage of hair dryers and curling brushes to help on battery life, cheap clippers from fleabay,  I doubt swmbo will go along with it but it's so much easier......