Car Talk

[oldgregg]

Oh I wouldn't disagree, just that the M47 was a bit of a monkey in BMW vehicles whereas the detuned version in the 75 did it some favours.

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[SPEEDTRIPLE]

Why is it so many people like to rubbish British cars, they were pretty good, and if properly serviced and looked after would last for years, mine always did. I`ve known several people who own so called perfect german cars, who`ve had nothing but problems with them. My brother in law had a Mercedes, and now would`nt touch them with a barge pole, but had an MG ZT, and loved its reliability and comfort. My Brother had a BMW and again would`nt have another. My father had 2 BMWs, the first being an old one that rusted as easy as a Lancia Beta, and a later one which sheared it`s camshaft mounts resulting in a new top end, AND, for the money was very basic inside, when for the same money, you could have a top spec MG or Ford, or Vauxhal etc etc which was more comfortable and reliable. Some friends at work have them, and are always having work done on them, yet always try to dismiss it, yet will slag off a British car that`s never had any problems.  There`s NOTHING wrong with British cars, but there is something wrong with so called intellegent people that will always rubbish anything British because they`ve been encouraged, or even brainwashed dare i say it, into believing this country CAN`T build anything any more. Can anybody remember the names of Rolls Royce, Bently, Morgan, Lotus, Ariel, and much closer to me, Triumph motorcycles, which a lot of people don`t realise is actually now Britains biggest automotive manufacturer, and is continually setting motorcycle trends with their class leading brands. 

Briitish cars rubbish?, i don`t think so.

[ExSurveyor]

British cars in the 70's were, but then most mass produced cars were rubbish in the 70's, now days they are as good as any other.

[Paul]

Sadly, people rubbish them because too many of them were rubbish. Not all, but too many and a reputation once earned is very difficult to erase. Ironically at the time of Rover's demise they were producing some pretty good cars, and had been for some time. The 75 we have already talked about, but the 600 it superceded was a very good car, in fact anybody looking for a large, comfortable family car on the tightest budget could do far worse, even today. I had a number of  Rovers. A Mk1 213, a Mk2 220 Coupe "Tomcat", a Mk2 216 Cabriolet and a 620ti, a 620 SLDi (which was mum's before mine). The only one I had any trouble with was the first, which blew it's engine at 120k. That was the only one with a Honda engine, all others were Rover units. The L series in the 620 diesel was superb, the T series in the ti was insanely quick. It was not the quality of the product that killed Rover, but mismanagement and public perception. 

German cars are almost the exact opposite. They built a reputation for build quality and reliability in the 1970's which is no longer deserved, but is engrained into peoples opinion. BMW have gone steadily downhill since the introduction of the E36 3 series in 1990. For engine reliability they rank only just above the like of Land Rover, Renault and Peugeot-Citroen. Volkswagen have suffered a similar decline as did Mercedes though they have been much better over the last decade or so. 

[Chris1986]

Mercedes built in the 90’s and early 00’s all seemed to rust bad.

[SPEEDTRIPLE]

1 hour ago, Paul said:

Sadly, people rubbish them because too many of them were rubbish. Not all, but too many and a reputation once earned is very difficult to erase. Ironically at the time of Rover's demise they were producing some pretty good cars, and had been for some time. The 75 we have already talked about, but the 600 it superceded was a very good car, in fact anybody looking for a large, comfortable family car on the tightest budget could do far worse, even today. I had a number of  Rovers. A Mk1 213, a Mk2 220 Coupe "Tomcat", a Mk2 216 Cabriolet and a 620ti, a 620 SLDi (which was mum's before mine). The only one I had any trouble with was the first, which blew it's engine at 120k. That was the only one with a Honda engine, all others were Rover units. The L series in the 620 diesel was superb, the T series in the ti was insanely quick. It was not the quality of the product that killed Rover, but mismanagement and public perception. 

German cars are almost the exact opposite. They built a reputation for build quality and reliability in the 1970's which is no longer deserved, but is engrained into peoples opinion. BMW have gone steadily downhill since the introduction of the E36 3 series in 1990. For engine reliability they rank only just above the like of Land Rover, Renault and Peugeot-Citroen. Volkswagen have suffered a similar decline as did Mercedes though they have been much better over the last decade or so. 

Hi Paul,

Your last comment re engines reliability just above Peugeot - Citroen i will totally disagree with. If you remember it was Peugeot that were fitting diesel engines en masse in production cars way before anybody else in the 70s, and with so much developement, they earned a reputation for solid reliable (if not exciting) diesels. In fact, not a lot of people look behind the scenes and realise that Peugeot have in fact been supplying diesel engines to other manufacturers such as BMW, Volvo, Rover, even Ford, and others, and people always say how reliable those models are so reliable. I recently traded a 407 diesel, purely because it was a manual box, and with ever increasing knee problems, needed an auto. I really miss that 407 as it was the best car i`ve ever owned. 

Also, can anybody remember the Volkswagon advert "If only everything in life was as reliable as a Volkswagon"?, they had to drop the advert because the Golf had one of the worst reliability records going. It`s also worth mentioning that many people had problems with Rover 216 gearboxes, and vowed to never by a Rover again. The 216 had a Volkswagon gearbox.

My first car was a Hilman Avenger 1500GL auto. It was a really reliable comfortable car, until i killed it through misuse and accidents. But the engine was a real peach and probably the easiest engine to service and work on. I wish i had it now.

 

 

[oldgregg]

I think all manufacturers have struggled over the last 20 years because of the increased costs of producing vehicles which comply with safety and emissions legislation.

The german brands were stuggling to turn a profit in the early noughties and realised that they could cut costs under the bonnet because people would buy the cars anyway.

Stick some fancy trim in the interior, give it some 'high quality plastics' to please the motoring journalists, a fancy stereo (but call it an infotainment system) perhaps with some apps and don't forget lots of talk of 'lifestyle' in the brochure. 

Stretch out the service intervals to something silly like 25,000 miles in order to please fleet managers and away you go. Should last 3 years / 60k miles on business lease and after that no-one really cares. The warranty companies and dealerships can deal with the fallout.

The Golf V is one of the worst cars VW have ever made, but they sold masses of them. It got replaced before its time with a new model because Volkswagen wanted to share their hard work with us  

Okay, no actually they wanted to replace it with a model that they could produce without making a loss.... 

[Paul]

1 hour ago, SPEEDTRIPLE said:

Peugeot that were fitting diesel engines en masse in production cars way before anybody else in the 70s, and with so much developement, they earned a reputation for solid reliable (if not exciting) diesels.

Another example of reputation becoming ingrained. Once upon a time, when diesel engines were more agricultural Peugeot made excellent deisels, reliable although relatively thirsty compared to it's main rivals, but this wasn't so critical then. Since then Peugeot in the form of PSA have collaborated on a lot of engine design with Ford, driven by the need to reduce development costs, but Ford always built their own, rather than taking customer units from Peugeot. More recently many Peugeot cars including the 407 have used Ford made Duratorq units rebadged HDi. Over it's lifetime the 407 was listed as "unreliable" by the reliablity index, with more than 1 in 5 faults being engine related. 

The trail of diesel engines, especially over the last twenty years or so is extremely convoluted. My 2003 Espace for example used an Engine designed by GM in the USA for use by Vauxhall/Opel in the Signum, built under license by Isuzu and sold to Renault and Saab (then a GM subsiduary) who made the engine management. Technically it was superb, in practice it was rubbish. In order to fit the Signums small engine bay it was ultra compact with things like the fuel pump buried in the V. The Nikasil cylinder liners were prone to crack or slip, the fuel injection pump was not big enough so was deliberately overrun to provide the required pressure leading to premature failure. The shape of the exhaust manifold was such that exhaust gas stalled in the EGR causing carbon build up until the valve stuck open. It was so beset by problems that Vauxhall never fitted it to the Signum, the very car it had been designed for. 

I think this is typical of the compromise in modern engine design when multiple manufacturers are involved, not just with the PSA / Ford arrangement, and a major contributing factor of the all too common problems they suffer. Look at the two cars on my drive, A Merc and a Honda. Both engines designed and built by the manufacturer. The Honda has 196k, the Merc a mere baby yet at 45k. Neother have given any problems ...... so far. If they do, I'll know exactly who to blame, though at 196k with nothingmore than regular servicing, which I do myself I don't think the Honda owes me anything.

[ChrisB]

Most of my driving has been done in company cars and as stated above they have to last 3 years. However on a personal level the best two cars we have actually owned for reliability were Judith's 1973 Citroen Dyane which we had for 11 years and outshining all her 1989 Mercedes 190E auto. Both were bought new and serviced as per their schedule. We drove the 190E for 17 years and gave it to another family member in 2007 when we moved to Norfolk. Apart from normal replacements it's only failures were the viscous cooling fan at about 90K and the ignition/steering lock at 70K.

[ranworthbreeze]

My worse car was a Vauxhall estate, engine wise it was OK but the wings and tailgate rotted in the middle of the panels when it was about a year old. Best saloons after that were a 2.8 Ford Scorpio and a Mazda Xedos 9 before I knew better (no need for having to take the children around, they had cars of their own) and bought my first Saab 93 convertible, bought the newer style after about 5 or 6 years but loved both cars. Due to memories and the high mileage I replaced the Saab with a Audi S3 which is great other than the satnav.

Regards

Alan

 

[oldgregg]

2 hours ago, ChrisB said:

Most of my driving has been done in company cars and as stated above they have to last 3 years. However on a personal level the best two cars we have actually owned for reliability were Judith's 1973 Citroen Dyane which we had for 11 years and outshining all her 1989 Mercedes 190E auto. Both were bought new and serviced as per their schedule. We drove the 190E for 17 years and gave it to another family member in 2007 when we moved to Norfolk. Apart from normal replacements it's only failures were the viscous cooling fan at about 90K and the ignition/steering lock at 70K.

Mercedes were good until just before the marriage with Chrysler. That and the MK1 A Class were pretty obvious signs that all was not well in Stuttgart.. 

They started with cutting the costs on the steel bodies, and it went downhill from there. People didn't notice that to begin with of course, but over time realised that the newer models were not lasting as well as the brilliant stuff built in the 80's and early 90's.

The MK1 A Class is probably the worst car they've ever made. We all remember that a journalist nearly flipped one, and so they had to go back to the drawing board and add lots of electronics to sort the stability.

When you remember that the A class was already dramatically lowering the cost of entry to their range, this was a problem. The only way to avoid a loss on a car full of expensive electronics - And to recoup the costs of development and a delayed launch - was to cut corners.

Honest John's guidance on the MK1 was hilarious - Simply "Because of the volume of problems, we recommend you do not buy one". Pretty much sums up the experience of everyone I know who had one.

[grendel]

for reliability I have settled on Volvos, the only issues I have ever had were due to high mileage and old age, and those were generally electrical, aside from the one v40 2.0 litre Turbo, where first the turbo packed in (I then drove it another 6 months until there was a misfire on several cylinders that the engine management didnt see and acknowledge up to the point it ceased to run (still no error codes), when I went out and got another V70. my volvos are always bought at around 100,000 miles for under £1000 and then run until they drop with only the necessary maintenance done by myself, the V70's are always good for 250,000 miles, which I can get them up to from 100,000 in about 4 or 5 years.

[BrundallNavy]

Which one are you ?? 

[grendel]

I think I get away lightly with my Volvo

[NeilB]

29 minutes ago, brundallNavy said:

Which one are you ?? 

FIAT - Fix It Again Tomorrow

FORD - Fix Or Repair Daily

LOTUS - Lots Of Trouble Usually Serious

[Cal]

53 minutes ago, NeilB said:

 

FORD - Fix Or Repair Daily

 

So very true.

For our sins we still fix or repair this daily after 19 years of ownership!

[scaniaman]

Well said Grendel, I bought a Volvo 740 estate new in 1986 its done 200,000 miles, is still used, and carries more than my land cruisers. Its been reliable, comfortable and is still able to able pull my caravan with ease. I should have parted with it years ago but can`t bear the thought. By the way does anybody know the poem The Fords Prayer. I only remember parts of it. It starts The Ford is my car, I shall not want another, It maketh me to lye down in damp places, Its oil anointeth my head Sorry can`t remember the rest.

Paul

[grendel]

39 minutes ago, scaniaman said:

Volvo 740 estate new in 1986 its done 200,000 miles

ah a low mileage one then at barely more than 4600 per year, thats under 2 months driving for me (37 trips to work and back)

[Paul]

19 hours ago, Paul said:

Over it's lifetime the 407 was listed as "unreliable" by the reliablity index

Just so it doesn't look like I'm "dissing" (got that word from my lad) Peugeot, year by year as new reliability stats are realeased more and more cars are classed as unreliable. As they become more and more complicated the old adage seems quite true, the more complicated a car becomes the more there is to go wrong. 

The reality is you could list those makes of car which are consistantly considered the least reliable, such as Range Rover, Renault, Alfa Romeo etc and a dozen people will respond "by eck lad, ar'n had an 'undred and fifty three Range Rovers, thar'n all bin round t'clock at least three times, 'n I drove two on 'em t'moon and never 'ad so much as a single misfire".

Perhaps at the end of the day the only option is buy what makes you happy and hell with the big ends, or the fluid torque converter.

[KaptinKev]

6 hours ago, Cal said:

So very true.

For our sins we still fix or repair this daily after 19 years of ownership!

I owned one of these in blue and what a fantastic car it was. Although the electric aerial was a pain if you didn't keep it clean. Gave the boy racer XR3i a run for it's money!

[Siddy]

 

When I passed my test in 86 after learning with a instructor and driving VW round front camper type van doing the milk on a Saturday the guy I worked had one of these big Consul things and always said when I passed I could use it, yea yea yea till I passed and instead of dropping me of home drove to his and said only way your getting home is in that and it's full. It was like sat in our front room driving that at 18. 

Did these turn into the Granada? but I didn't like the Scorpio which followed, I used one at work and the boot wasn't deep enough for air cond compressors etc.

Other older cars

Nissan Bluebird 2.0D great engine never missed a beat that got me 3 points 200 mile back from London anything between 80 -100 all way then come off motorway and got pulled on last mile, alway gave a black cloud as you set off after you'd pushed it and thats what to cop noticed and followed.

Citroen BX 1.7 TZD slow at the bottom end but once going it went, self leveling suspension which was fun doing hump back bridges & pull up blinds on the rear window (what ever next). I remember the London guys using them to avoid wheel clamps by dropping the car over the wheels.

The fun of speed has gone now (not by choice) and drive to get the best MPG. Don't get me wrong I like a boy racer at traffic lights, give it revs & roll a little (dangle the carrot) then steady away on green whilst they've gone.

I'd love a Morris Minor even the van model but only thing I know about cars is oil & water in the front and fuel in the back.

[LondonRascal]

Interesting reading peoples opinions and comments, especially about British cars - ether the fact they appeared to be badly put together and made, or defending them as actually being not as bad as all that...

I feel fortunate to have grown up when there was a great deal of change and progress being made in our world through technology unlike any other generation where a great deal of change happened in education and then work with computers, then seeing the birth of the Internet and now seeing where it has brought us - not all good. The same goes for cars.

These days we seem to take so much for granted with a new car - and the fact that they come with so many features be it for comfort, safety or technology as standard. What also seems to have happened with cars is the same as happened when iPhone was launched. Before then we had true choice with features, looks and manufactures. After iPhone we have fewer manufactures, all the phones look the same and do much the same things - some just faster or slightly better, but with only two operating systems it really has limited choice.

Cars now seem to be much of the same, A Ford or Toyota a Vauxhall or a Honda. Take away the badges and just go by what you get - engine, power, trim, features, looks. Nobody is really wanting to be too daring - we've all gone a bit conservative I think and small. Look at the average car park or street - sure you see the odd big estate, Land Rover Discovery/Range Rover etc but the overwhelming majority will be smaller, more basic cars.

Everyone has hopped on the SUV bandwagon, and while there is a lot of innovation with Electric we have not got the infrastructure to cause mass uptake let alone convince people to pay out the bigger cost to begin, so to now it is all about focusing how to make a car feel and perform as they used to but now with a smaller engine. Diesel is hated now, so it has to be Petrol. Hybrid's are the in thing, but to my mind they are just a stop gap while manufactures figure out really what direction things will really go in and I think a lot of this will depend on Governments.

Once upon a time you bought a car and might have a real allegiance to a brand - your dad drove a Ford, you therefore naturally opted for a Ford. I remember as a child being at family get together's and the men would first talk about how they all got there - with much debates about what each believed to have been the best route. Distance was not measure in miles but in time - many still do this, a set journey and how well it went based on the time they left and the time one arrives and then feeling good if it was a particularly good run.

But of course sometimes, someone might have arrived in a new car. This really caused a great talking point as everyone had to go out and look while he basked in the glow of "I am the one with the new car"  and everyone else had to ask things like "Yeah, but does it have 60/40 split folding seats?" ... "Hmm it does does it...Well, yes but unlike the Vauxhall you get that higher load lip" which was a polite way of saying it was still rubbish in their mind and they had not got the best all round package. It also was then the talking point in private on the way back home: "It's all very well Terry having that new Volvo but you'd never beat the silky gear change on a Ford and think about his parts costs!"

I remember my Uncle causing uproar when he went from having BMW's and bought a Saab.It was so left field and yet fitted him perfectly. Or when a friend of my Dad's who'd always been 'sensible' suddenly went and bought a new Ford Probe. My Dad saw it as American tat, and preferred the Vauxhall Calibra. But this was a time where you could get a large four door saloon from Vauxhall or Ford that was the 'middle management' of the car world, but if you had an Omega you really wanted a BMW 5 Series..Yet you could also get a Nova or Fiesta from the same manufacture, so the wife had a nice little runabout. 

The biggest change though is how we buy cars. Firstly fewer and fewer people are actually bothering to learn to drive in their late teens/early twenties especially in major cities, so that right of passage and key to Independence is not as needed or desired. Secondly those days of saving up for a car or getting a loan to cover all or part the cost are increasingly over with the advent of easy and affordable personal leasing. When I bought the SLK, someone was in the showroom talking to the owner of the dealership (clearly a friend) and asked how many people were buying the new cars, to which the reply was "nobody does that now" as in all the cars are being sold new on leases. They went on to speak over things but suffice to say Mazda has not had a cash buyer in Beccles for more than 6 months.  None of the cars on the showroom floor had any prices on either, just monthly amounts you had to pay to get the car which all seem very attractive and that is the point.

It all is so easy, so tempting. So what people seem to want now is something that looks good and has a bunch of tech in it. Forget comfort, hell even reliability - if it has a warranty, free servicing and breakdown cover with a all the bells and whistles whats the worry? Car breaks, its all looked after, all paid for and you get a loaner while its in.

It also has changed the way I personally see people - once when you saw a new car, and an expensive one at that, I would look at the person and think to myself how much that car costs and how much they must have to afford that and in a bit in awe of this. Now it does not necessarily mean that at all, new fancy Merc pulls up in Tesco's car park and it could well just be on a lease for a few hundred a month. Finally, because of all the above, once cars were generally more cherished I think.  People would put more time, effort and money into their cars - keep them going longer. Now they are far more 'disposable' both perhaps in they build quality but also to do with the fact who wants to keep something older going. It says something when Practical Classic's Magazine has a feature on Twingo's as being 'future classics'.

 

[CambridgeCabby]

To a degree it is a good guide to look at what cars are being used as cabs 

there is a reason why the majority you see nowadays are Skoda , excellent value and very very reliable .

also Mercedes which are far far better than they were ten years past

In the 90’s the Citroen BX or the Peugeot 405 were the choice , prior to that the Ford Sierra  and the Vauxhall Cavalier

my first cab was a Hillman Minx the engine seized but a visit to a breakers yard and three hours labour a running engine was installed then started my love affair with the Ford Granada and the traditional London Cab 

should also add that many cabs are also Toyota Prius but the majority of cabbies only buy one once then replace it with a more traditional engines car 

 

[grendel]

I have looked into this 'new' leasing car ownership and have to say that if you do a high mileage its not for you, most have some kind of penalty payment per mile if you are going to be doing more than 12,000 miles in the year, this means I would be paying additional fees on over 20,000 miles every year, that puts the costs well above the overall purchase cost and paying for your own running costs.

plus there is the point - is running a brand new car greener that running an old second hand car, the second hand car spreads its eco costs for scrapping over a longer number of years than getting a new car every 3 years every time, even if it does kick out additional pollution by being older. its biggest environmental impact comes when it is scraped and dumped in landfill. it is my thought that cars should be made to be 100% recycleable.

[ranworthbreeze]

2 hours ago, grendel said:

I have looked into this 'new' leasing car ownership and have to say that if you do a high mileage its not for you, most have some kind of penalty payment per mile if you are going to be doing more than 12,000 miles in the year, this means I would be paying additional fees on over 20,000 miles every year, that puts the costs well above the overall purchase cost and paying for your own running costs.

plus there is the point - is running a brand new car greener that running an old second hand car, the second hand car spreads its eco costs for scrapping over a longer number of years than getting a new car every 3 years every time, even if it does kick out additional pollution by being older. its biggest environmental impact comes when it is scraped and dumped in landfill. it is my thought that cars should be made to be 100% recycleable.

Hi Grendel,

Most accountants usually say there is not much difference in purchase or leasing. I however have also been concerned re the mileage each year and the penalties for the condition of the car at the end of the lease. I have always opted for ownership and at times have kept my cars longer than I should have done, also I am getting a bit old in the tooth for lying under cars these days.

I do like to keep my hand in however so I might still do a few jobs.

Regards

Alan