Co Alarm Upgrade Surprise

[RumPunch]

I recently changed the old 'it'll make a noise before it kills you' type to one with a digital display. My old Flavel two burner was taking it up to around 55 ppm indicated whilst making a cup of tea. Now I could see the figure I got more anxious ( although still low enough for several hours exposure ) and stripped my spare cooker in the garage of it's jets and burners, serviced / cleaned them, and swapped them over.

Reading now - ZERO

 

[StillCruising]

We have a Flavel Vanessa cooker that also responded well to having the jets cleaned, it is now part of the yearly maintenance.

[Ray]

Good topic and an important one. Any tips/advice for a maintenance clean of a gas cooker?

[Paul]

bottled gas usually contains more moisture than mains gas and this can, over time lead to corrosion inside the pipes of your appliance. The best way to deal with this is to switch off the gas supply, remove the unit and strip it down then blow compressed air through the feed pipe.

The jets must be removed first. The hob jets are normally removable with a 7 or 8 mm socket, and grill and oven burners are usually clipped in then secured by one or more screws. Remove them, give them a good clean and ensure the nozzles are clear. Then turn on all of the knobs and give a blast of compressed air through the feed pipe. You'll be amazed how much detritus comes out of the burners. Reassemble and reinstall.

REMEMBER .... the law requires this work to be undertaken by a Gas Safe registered engineer approved for working on boats. 

[Vaughan]

What causes the CO emission is when there is not enough air mixing with the gas and so the flame will burn with a yellow tip. A yellow flame always means incomplete combustion of the gas.

The old Flavel cookers have an adjustment for the intake air, which is a setscrew with a lock-nut, that you will find on the end of the burner casting. The setscrew intrudes into the aperture of the casting and thus controls the flow of air. With the burner alight, you can un-do the screw until you get a pure blue flame. If the flame then goes out with a "pop" when you turn it off, you have too much air and can screw it in again a bit. Modern cookers are factory set and cannot be adjusted in this way.

As Paul says, this must be done by a gas safe engineer.

A gas appliance burning with a perfect blue flame does not emit CO into the cabin of a boat.

[ZimbiIV]

Well done on changing your CO detector, they are not fit and forget and need changing every 3 to 5 years no matter what the makers say.

paul

[Coryton]

44 minutes ago, ZimbiIV said:

Well done on changing your CO detector, they are not fit and forget and need changing every 3 to 5 years no matter what the makers say.

paul

When I hired a boat a few years ago (not on the Broads) we had to sign something to say we'd had a handover and would follow the rules, and there was something there about the CO detector (I don't recall why).

So I asked where it was, to be told that there wasn't one, but they could fetch one if I liked.

I did like.

It never went off but better safe than sorry.

 

[RumPunch]

Couple of the above comments have had me researching the rules again, and unless I'm missing something there is no legal reason I cannot perform gas work on my own private leisure craft. I know this certainly was the case, so if anyone can point to a piece of legislation saying otherwise i'd appreciate seeing it.

[BroadAmbition]

and unless I'm missing something there is no legal reason I cannot perform gas work on my own private leisure craft. I know this certainly was the case, so if anyone can point to a piece of legislation saying otherwise i'd appreciate seeing it.

Good point - I'd like to see it too - If that is the case, it looks like a keel hauling and off to the tower for me 

Griff

[Vaughan]

5 minutes ago, RumPunch said:

no legal reason I cannot perform gas work on my own private leisure craft.

To discuss this, we first need to define "work". If you do anything which opens the gas line installation in some way, you are said to have done "work" on it.  This would include changing a cooker jet but would not include changing an empty gas bottle.

After doing work on a system you are supposed to carry out a pressure test.

Of course anyone can do their own work on their own boat's gas installation if they are prepared to take the risk. Who is to know? I guess the final arbiter of this would be your insurers, when their assessor decides whether or not to pay out after a fire or explosion.

[BroadAmbition]

I guess the final arbiter of this would be your insurers, when their assessor decides whether or not to pay out after a fire or explosion.

That's an extreme example - reserved for those that should enter the annual Darwin awards I would offer.

Of course I do understand and agree that it would be proper stupid to 'Let' just any Tom Dick or Harry without any training whatsoever to 'Work' on a gas system privately owned or otherwise

What about competent Diy-ers that have the confidence and knowledge to do such 'Work'?

I installed the whole gas system onboard 'B.A' every part of it in total about 13 years ago, since then we have upgraded the hob, serviced / cleaned, changed various parts on grill / oven as and when required.  BUT I fitted an in line bubble tester so can see at a glance we also have two onboard CO Detectors and have done for ages way before they became compulsory on hire boats (Changing them when we feel the need), and of course passed every BSS that 'B.A' has ever had

So to be clear is it legal or not legal to do 'Work' on ones own gas system on a private leisure boat?

I'm not asking if it wise or recommended - That's 100% a different question

As an aside (Where's Paladin?) What's the difference between unlawful and illegal ?

Griff

[RumPunch]

Yep - bottle followed by bubble tester. New CO alarm that showed potential problems I was unaware of and have now rectified. As to competence, ex RAF engineer with Service qualifications for high pressure oxygen / nitrogen systems including cryogenic gases

[Siddy]

The gas safe regs say "To work legally on gas appliances and installations you must be on the Gas Safe Register." this includes LPG which must now be included in the test. When I did mine test it was oil & gas.

So looks like you should get it tested by a gas safe engineer. This doesn't mean you can't do the work BUT final connection and testing done by a registered engineer.

On the trip boat I was on we had to put a LPG gas detector in the kitchen at ground level to get it passed it's yearly checkup.

Looking at Rum's quals he could have fueled the shuttle but unless he has the yellow card we won't be having a warm meal tonight.

[Paul]

Interesting ....

The Gas Safe Installation and Use regulations exclude boats on inland waters not used as a permanent or temporary residence or hired or loaned. 

Section 7 of the BSS requires fitters to be Gas Safe when working on LPG systems, but is a DIY installer to be considered a "fitter", or is a "fitter" only someone employed to do work?

Looking at my last insurance policy from Maritime General it specifically quotes that all work must be undertaken by a qualified person. (note "qualified", not "competent")

As for unlawful and illegal, something  is unlawful if it is not permitted by law, something is illegal if it is specifically prohibited by law. Unlawful can relate to any situation governed by laws, even the "laws of the game" in things such as Rugby and cricket whereas illegal relates only to criminal law, as far as I understand. There is a wonderful law in the rules of rugby which states "anything not permitted in these laws is not permitted". It sounds like gobbledygook but think carefully and it is a wonderful rule. Employ it in something like Formula 1 and it would resolve a whole load of argument.

[BroadAmbition]

The Gas Safe Installation and Use regulations exclude boats on inland waters not used as a permanent or temporary residence or hired or loaned.  

There you go, as per the Law - I'm not off to the tower then - Good, that's a relief. (I kinda knew this but wasn't sure)

Tks for the explanation re unlawful and illegal.  I always thought the answer to be:-

Unlawful - Against the Law

Illegal - A sick Bird

Griff

 

[VetChugger]

Sorry Griff but I suspect the "temporary residence" part will also refer to a week or two weeks holiday. After all, we are living on the boats when out.

[Vaughan]

6 hours ago, Paul said:

The Gas Safe Installation and Use regulations

I think that title says it all. The BSS, and ERCD are "installation" regulations. They do not cover the routine maintenance and use of the equipment on the boat.

The Gas Safety, however, does cover safe use, as indeed it should!

[Vaughan]

8 hours ago, BroadAmbition said:

I guess the final arbiter of this would be your insurers, when their assessor decides whether or not to pay out after a fire or explosion.

That's an extreme example

Actually, it's not - it is the "end game".

These regs are all about preventing fire, explosion, suffocation or poisoning and in the event of any of the above, the insurance assessor (and maybe the coroner) will want to know why such an accident happened. As ex CORGI myself I am perfectly happy with gas on a boat. It has served us well over the decades and there is still no practical alternative - whatever Barnes BC may say! But it has to be installed and maintained to the correct standards. I would always strongly recommend anyone to have work done by a qualified fitter. 

[Paul]

As is usually the case, the regulations seem wonderfully unclear. What constitutes a "fitter", what constitutes "temporary residence". I often think this lack of clarity is deliberate so as to provide plenty of work for the lawyers, and expensive work at that, if and when the definitions have to be tested. 

The GSIUR were updated not that long ago, and I had read in one of the boaty type magazines that all pleasure craft would be included under the changes, but that seems not to have happened, reading the current pulication on the HSE website.

[ranworthbreeze]

During my time in the trades I have come across several Corgi/Gas-safe registered fitters that I would not trust to even make the tea let alone have someones safety in their hands. One fitter working on my business partners home did the new boiler for him, the Gas-board condemned his pipework which had four or five leaks in a very short run.

One plumber I know piped up 22 mm pipework on a  heating system where he put the pump under the bathroom floor and cut notches over 3 inches deep into the 7 x 2 joists, four of these supported the floor under the bath, the builder and myself shook our heads and went for a cuppa elsewhere.

Regards

Alan

[TheQ]

20 hours ago, Paul said:

.

REMEMBER .... the law requires this work to be undertaken by a Gas Safe registered engineer approved for working on boats. 

Only for commercial boats is it a law,  and it doesn't say a "gas safe registered person", The law says a competent person. Even then the company could be "gas safe registered" but the person not.

It is perfectly legal to do you own gas work on your own house or boat, however if you are not competent, you are even more liable.. and even more of an idiot..

[grendel]

when we had central heating fitted they came along and cut a 6" wide section out of the tongue and groove chipboard floor, laid the pipes then just fitted the chipboard back across the floor beams that were 16" apart, it was not long before we managed to put a foot through these unsupported chipboard sections, I eventually took up most of the chipboard and replaced it with 3/4" ply.

[OldBerkshireBoy]

3 hours ago, TheQ said:

Only for commercial boats is it a law,  and it doesn't say a "gas safe registered person", The law says a competent person. Even then the company could be "gas safe registered" but the person not.

It is perfectly legal to do you own gas work on your own house or boat, however if you are not competent, you are even more liable.. and even more of an idiot..

The engineer is the named gas safe person working through the company so should he be the only gas safe guy they have and he leaves then they shouldn't advertise as being gas safe registered.

[TheQ]

Yep you only need the 1 gas safe qualified man,  the rest don't have to be,  he just supervises. 

[KaptinKev]

Unfortunately I have seen DIY jobs concerning gas which involve gas installed hobs with plastic and copper push fit joints. At the end of the day it comes down to insurance, it doesn't matter how crap the installers are, as long as they are registered and you have your legitimate certificate, you are covered. I'm sure the likes of Griff full know what they are doing, but I am sure there are a fair few out there that think they know what they are doing, but don't.