New Hire Boats For 2022

[Vaughan]

32 minutes ago, rightsaidfred said:

what really jumps out is the larger yards promoting Electric and hybrid boats as being ecologicaly friendly and then telling people to run engines.

Now that is a rather different matter and I think you are entirely right to say so.

[Vaughan]

37 minutes ago, Meantime said:

I have to say I've gone to some lengths to provide sound deadening in my engine bay and actually find the noise of my own engine a little tedious after a long cruise and am glad when it's turned off. Having strayed over to the dark side on a few occasions (a Hunters boat) I do really appreciate the peace and tranquility that being under sail can provide. I can imagine how galling it is to get to a mooring under sail and moor up, only for the peace to be shattered by the constant throb of engines.

I never understand why engines need to be run at moorings. To illustrate this, last week I was on the Yare for a few days break. About 2hrs after leaving the marina the 12V gauge started flicking between 12.6V and 14V and the rev counter started to flicker in unison. I pulled over at the nearest mooring which happened to be Cantley and investigated. All wiring checked and no loose wires found and I decided it was probably the regulator breaking down. What to do? Head back to the marina and cancel my trip? No I disconnected the charge lamp wire going to the alternator, which also acts as the alternator startup and restarted the engine. All good the gauge is sitting steady ay 12.6V. The alternator is spinning, but providing no charge. The important bit, the fan belt is still driving the water pump so there should be no issues with continuing my trip other than not recharging the 12V batteries.

However due to design and engineering and more than a little planning, the boat also has a 24V alternator. It also has a small invertor connected to 12V to provide power for a TV and recharging laptop and phone etc. It also has a much larger invertor connected to the 24V batteries for running the microwave and the immersion element in the calorifier should I want hot water on a mooring without running the engine. I also have 4 stage battery chargers for both 12V and 24V for when I'm connected to shore power.

So I was able to turn on the 24V invertor and the 12V battery charger and recharge my 12V batteries as needed. I didn't need to plug into shore power at any mooring. I didn't need to run my engine at any mooring. My batteries are in a good enough condition that they could handle the extra load of having to charge the 12V batteries and more importantly I didn't have to cut short my trip.

The very scenario that happened was planned for when I enhanced the fit out of my boat. I even have a temporary fan belt on board in the event that the 12V alternator was to have a bearing break down or seize then I could use the temporary fan belt to just go straight between the crank and the water pump and remove the 12V alternator altogether. Should the 24V alternator ever fail then I can again recharge those batteries off the 12V invertor and 24V charger, although the 24V tends to be less important to me than the 12V systems.

I continued with my trip and upon the return to the marina removed the 12V alternator and took it home for further inspection. Having stripped it down and cleaned it, I'm reasonable confident I have found the culprit, a loose crimp on one of the connections on the regulator. This weekend I shall be returning to the boat for another trip out for the bank holiday weekend. The alternator will be refitted and hopefully the problem is cured, but if not I shall simply disconnect the charge light wire again and continue with my trip and worry about further fault finding upon my return.

Congratulations.

Now translate all that lot into one of Richardsons' average hire boats and imagine how long the trial run would have to last.

Also, the plaintive cries on the forum, about "lack of tuition"!

[Mouldy]

53 minutes ago, andyg said:

Simple answer to engines being run at night !!! Improve the infrastructure and yards need to improve battery maintenance. We were one of four boats at Ranworth last October having there batteries swapped out. We live in a technology driven world, teenagers want access to WiFi and electricity etc it's as simple as that. I can remember back to my early childhood holidaying on the broads engines running after dark wasa common practice. Engine's back then were far more polluting. I'm with Vaughan on this engines running on a mooring rarely bother me. 

It bothers me at 22:30 at night.  As I said earlier, it’s all about ‘me’ with little consideration for others.

[Meantime]

13 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

Congratulations.

Now translate all that lot into one of Richardsons' average hire boats and imagine how long the trial run would have to last.

Also, the plaintive cries on the forum, about "lack of tuition"!

Simples, for your average hire boat, ensure enough good batteries are fitted and if necessary two alternators to ensure the batteries are recharged as quickly as possible. If a fault occurs send out an engineer to change the alternator. The upside of two alternators is extra load on the engine which results in it warming up quicker from cold, which in turn results in quicker hot water. 

I've planned my boat out to ensure it meets my needs and to ensure I don't need to run the engine at moorings and to keep me mobile in the event of most minor breakdowns.

A hire yards needs are slightly different, but the basic principles of good design and planning are all relevant to helping to minimise the need to run engines at moorings. As is plainly demonstrated with the hybrid boats and the removal of gas for cooking, they are going in the wrong direction and making the situation worse in many cases. No one should have to run an engine to boil a kettle for heavens sake.

[Vaughan]

3 hours ago, rightsaidfred said:

many regard it as permission to run engines during the day when fumes are just as big a problem

Just a little word about "fumes" if I may, and I am quoting entirely from memory, having researched this carefully on a thread about 3 years ago. I am sure my figures can be "Googled" for those who wish to discuss them.

The Earth's atmosphere in our part of the World at sea level contains only about 18% oxygen (give or take).  The rest is mostly inert gases and CO2.

The exhaust emissions of a Diesel engine running slowly in neutral with no load on, still contain 14% oxygen.  This is because a diesel is a compression ignition engine which is still drawing the same volume of air into the cylinders, even though the injector pump has cut off almost all of the fuel.  The rest of the exhaust is the same inert gases with a small amount of CO2 and pretty well no CO - about 0.01%.

In other words, in theory, you could pipe it into a mask and breathe it normally.

The infamous particulates that we hear so much about on buses in inner cities, have been absorbed by the "wet exhaust" of the water cooling, and washed into the river.

A petrol engine is a very, very, different matter and you should never breathe those fumes in a confined space.

But there is an "elephant in the room"!  I think you will find that the fumes coming from the exhaust of a Webasto type diesel heating system are very much more pollutant in particulates and CO2, than the boat's main engine but no-one ever seems to talk about that.  Nor do the manufacturers seem to make any figures available . . . .

[andyg]

5 minutes ago, Mouldy said:

It bothers me at 22:30 at night.  As I said earlier, it’s all about ‘me’ with little consideration for others.

Not everyone is in bed by 10.30 but I understand where your coming from. That said Ranworth has never been a quite peaceful mooring. The island maybe. You can constantly hear engines running from boats mudweighting. We had electrical issues there ourselves last year,that didn't surface till we got back from the pub at 10pm. A boat from the same yard that was moored next to us had exactly the same problem. There engine was running when we arrived back to our boat. We had no lights heating etc, what do you suggest we should of done ?? Light a few candles, put another jumper on. Never going to happen I'm afraid, I've paid a lot of money and there's no way I'm sitting in the dark on a cold boat. If that makes me selfish, then so be it...

[OldBerkshireBoy]

36 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

Congratulations.

Now translate all that lot into one of Richardsons' average hire boats and imagine how long the trial run would have to last.

Also, the plaintive cries on the forum, about "lack of tuition"!

Would the hire yard need to tell them everything. Might be good for the engineer during  call out but dangerous to tell a hirer. Just a thought.

[rightsaidfred]

19 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

Just a little word about "fumes" if I may, and I am quoting entirely from memory, having researched this carefully on a thread about 3 years ago. I am sure my figures can be "Googled" for those who wish to discuss them.

The Earth's atmosphere in our part of the World at sea level contains only about 18% oxygen (give or take).  The rest is mostly inert gases and CO2.

The exhaust emissions of a Diesel engine running slowly in neutral with no load on, still contain 14% oxygen.  This is because a diesel is a compression ignition engine which is still drawing the same volume of air into the cylinders, even though the injector pump has cut off almost all of the fuel.  The rest of the exhaust is the same inert gases with a small amount of CO2 and pretty well no CO - about 0.01%.

In other words, in theory, you could pipe it into a mask and breathe it normally.

The infamous particulates that we hear so much about on buses in inner cities, have been absorbed by the "wet exhaust" of the water cooling, and washed into the river.

A petrol engine is a very, very, different matter and you should never breathe those fumes in a confined space.

But there is an "elephant in the room"!  I think you will find that the fumes coming from the exhaust of a Webasto type diesel heating system are very much more pollutant in particulates and CO2, than the boat's main engine but no-one ever seems to talk about that.  Nor do the manufacturers seem to make any figures available . . . .

I dont know about the science but I do know about the headaches and sore eyes we had and the smell after the exhaust had been pumping into our boat for about 20 mins.moored stern to stern on a side on mooring.

Fred

[Smoggy]

You certainly wouldn't want mine running at a mooring beside you for any length of time, it's the reason behind my username.

I have 3x 90Ah domestic batteries and can 2 days without running fine in summer as long as they start well charged, with my 100w solar panel I can stretch to 3 but want some water heating by then, last time at southwold with no shore power I ran my little genny for an hour for hot water and a battery boost but that was with only me on a pontoon.

[FlyingFortress]

31 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

Just a little word about "fumes" if I may, and I am quoting entirely from memory, having researched this carefully on a thread about 3 years ago. I am sure my figures can be "Googled" for those who wish to discuss them.

The Earth's atmosphere in our part of the World at sea level contains only about 18% oxygen (give or take).  The rest is mostly inert gases and CO2.

The exhaust emissions of a Diesel engine running slowly in neutral with no load on, still contain 14% oxygen.  This is because a diesel is a compression ignition engine which is still drawing the same volume of air into the cylinders, even though the injector pump has cut off almost all of the fuel.  The rest of the exhaust is the same inert gases with a small amount of CO2 and pretty well no CO - about 0.01%.

In other words, in theory, you could pipe it into a mask and breathe it normally.

The infamous particulates that we hear so much about on buses in inner cities, have been absorbed by the "wet exhaust" of the water cooling, and washed into the river.

A petrol engine is a very, very, different matter and you should never breathe those fumes in a confined space.

But there is an "elephant in the room"!  I think you will find that the fumes coming from the exhaust of a Webasto type diesel heating system are very much more pollutant in particulates and CO2, than the boat's main engine but no-one ever seems to talk about that.  Nor do the manufacturers seem to make any figures available . . . .

Think you need to do a bit more research into your figures although I do take your point about the diesel heaters.

Don't really know what can be done about them . It can be annoying when the exhaust from one discharges into your boat. Particularly a problem on stern moorings.

Edit to add.

Due to poor positioning of my fenders on my home berth. Totally my fault I may add. I ended up putting a nasty burn mark on my berth neighbors fender while running the diesel heater when doing some maintenance in winter.

I did replace his fender with good grace.

[Vaughan]

39 minutes ago, FlyingFortress said:

Think you need to do a bit more research into your figures

 

With your deep sea experience of genuine marine diesels, I am sure you will agree with me that these are 2 stoke, dry exhaust engines with blown air scavenging for their intake air.

Perhaps you would like to expand on your suggestion that I need to do more research?  Specifically, into 4 stroke, 4 cylinder, naturally aspirated C.I. engines on the Broads.

[FlyingFortress]

10 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

 

With your deep sea experience of genuine marine diesels, I am sure you will agree with me that these are 2 stoke, dry exhaust engines with blown air scavenging for their intake air.

Perhaps you would like to expand on your suggestion that I need to do more research?  Specifically, into 4 stroke, 4 cylinder, naturally aspirated C.I. engines on the Broads.

No issues with your engineering knowledge Vaughan.

Just the percentages of O2.

An 18% reading on a confined space certificate is a NO Entry without wearing suitable breathing apparatus. Must be 21% O2 and zero % on explosive gases. 

[Vaughan]

6 minutes ago, FlyingFortress said:

An 18% reading on a confined space certificate is a NO Entry without wearing suitable breathing apparatus. Must be 21% O2 and zero % on explosive gases. 

Royal Navy Engineering Manual, B.R. 16, brackets 50.  Precautions before opening unventilated compartments.

Yes, I remember it.

Still don't think it applies to the Malsters' Quay at Ranworth.

 

[FlyingFortress]

No in all fairness it probably doesn't apply at Ranworth.

And I was being pedantic about the O2 percentages. It's just that when you have authorized many hundreds  of enclosed space entry permits the numbers are hard to forget.

And no I have never been in the RN so have not read that manual.

[Wussername]

On 24/08/2022 at 22:08, rightsaidfred said:

While I share your concern and nobody wants to see any tragedy especially with a child life isn't and never will be risk free, you cannot sanatise life to that extent that nobody does anything, as for responsibilty people need to step up and accept responsibility for themselves,  keeping on delegating responsibility to authority has increasingly turned us into a nanny state which most of us dislike.

Fred

You may dislike the thought of a nanny state, a derogatory term which may suit your argument, an over played card,  in my point of view.  

The broads, has changed enormously over the last few years, it is time that we re visit standards, practices, disciplines. 

Others have already decided. It will effect dramatically the hire industry and ultimately impact the private boater in the very near future.

Our intransigence will have given others the ability to drastically influence the future of boating as we know it.

[rightsaidfred]

59 minutes ago, Wussername said:

You may dislike the thought of a nanny state, a derogatory term which may suit your argument, an over played card,  in my point of view.  

The broads, has changed enormously over the last few years, it is time that we re visit standards, practices, disciplines. 

Others have already decided. It will effect dramatically the hire industry and ultimately impact the private boater in the very near future.

Our intransigence will have given others the ability to drastically influence the future of boating as we know it.

Not sure what that's supposed to mean? but rivers are not exclusive to boating they are for all to enjoy in their chosen sector.

Fred 

[Wussername]

16 minutes ago, rightsaidfred said:

Not sure what that's supposed to mean? but rivers are not exclusive to boating they are for all to enjoy in their chosen sector.

Fred 

I do not think that anyone has challanged your comment that the broads is for everybody to enjoy.

[rightsaidfred]

33 minutes ago, Wussername said:

I do not think that anyone has challanged your comment that the broads is for everybody to enjoy.

Sorry but it has been inferred that swimming should be banned or restricted on the broads, it is a perfectly legitimate activity that almost certainly took place long before boating became popular.

Fred

[grendel]

8 hours ago, rightsaidfred said:

Sorry but it has been inferred that swimming should be banned or restricted on the broads, it is a perfectly legitimate activity that almost certainly took place long before boating became popular.

Fred

whilst agreeing that it should be allowed, some consideration for safety of the swimmers is needed, encountering wild swimmers (without marker floats) when coming around a bend in the chet and at the same time finding another boat coming the other way is a typical example, with 2 boats passing, there is just no river left for swimmers, no safe place for them to go, for me, this would be a sensible area to restrict swimming, if only for the swimmers safety.

I enjoy a quick dip in the broads when i can find a safe place to do it, and will always make sure i can do so safely (and generally stick fairly close to my boat while doing so)

[ChrisB]

I was taught that "Air" as in what we breathe is 21% Oxygen 78% Nitrogen and 1% others.

It is the Nitrogen that causes decompression sickness, as it comes out of solution in the blood if you come up too quickly.

Some very small percentage changes can effect the body adversely, not only in what we breathe but also hydration, and certain minerals.

[rightsaidfred]

1 hour ago, grendel said:

whilst agreeing that it should be allowed, some consideration for safety of the swimmers is needed, encountering wild swimmers (without marker floats) when coming around a bend in the chet and at the same time finding another boat coming the other way is a typical example, with 2 boats passing, there is just no river left for swimmers, no safe place for them to go, for me, this would be a sensible area to restrict swimming, if only for the swimmers safety.

I enjoy a quick dip in the broads when i can find a safe place to do it, and will always make sure i can do so safely (and generally stick fairly close to my boat while doing so)

I agree boats and swimmers are not an ideal combination and speaking personally nothing would persuade me to swim in the broads for various reasons and I wouldn`t encourage others to do so.

However on a purely practical and realistic platform I support every ones right to purse the discipline of their choosing, despite various warnings etc several people drown on boat free waters every year and as tragic as this is and there are consequences suffered by others to it is the individual who is responsible for their actions.

By all means post warnings which the BA do now and endeavour to educate people as to the dangers involved to themselves and others and if it saves one tragedy then that is something worthwhile, what you can`t do is legislate against people doing something that is perfectly legitimate and in a lot of cases comes perfectly naturally and you certainly cannot legislate for the idiot factor however much you try to delegate responsibility.

Fred 

[OldBerkshireBoy]

Isn`t it really more about the smell and the effect of fumes inducing headaches and sore eyes.

[DAVIDH]

This thread reminds me of the current Conservative leadership race.

Incessant oneupmanship. After a while it becomes boring and repetitive. Can't see the flames for all the swirling smoke. Sorry. 

[andyg]

Gentlemen, I'm pretty sure there's a thread about wild swimming already on here,can I kindly suggest thoses that want to debate that head on over there. Same goes for running engines on moorings pretty sure I've seen a thread on that as well. It all just becomes a bit of a mess with with everyone promoting there own agenda and the op gets totally forgotten. Shall we get back to the original topic the constant ruffling of feather and egos becomes a bit boring in the end. 

[grendel]

many years ago, i went on a fairground ride with some friends, it was one of those where a big circular cage spun around and you were pinned to the sides by the centripetal forces.

the exhaust of the diesel running the ride was vented right up the centre of the cage, and as you were being forced outward, you naturally had to breath deeper during the ride.

several hours later, and both myself and my friend were suffering from severe nausea and headaches.

upon arriving home the next day both of us were still suffering and visited our respective doctors, where diesel poisoning was diagnosed from the (dirty black) fumes from this rides exhaust.

a complaint was made and the fairground were made to vent the exhaust outside of the ride, not into the centre.

for several years after that i felt nauseous at the merest whiff of diesel fumes.