Good Or Bad Year?

[Cal]

We have just totted up how much our 17 night break to France has cost us.

Including return tunnel tickets, animal health certificate, vets visit in France for the dogs return worming treatment, all fuel, food, drink and van related costs it has come to £1770. 

(The two most expensive days were in the UK!)

It would have cost us a damn sight more to have done a similar length trip on the Broads!

 

[Mouldy]

18 minutes ago, Cal said:

We have just totted up how much our 17 night break to France has cost us.

Including return tunnel tickets, animal health certificate, vets visit in France for the dogs return worming treatment, all fuel, food, drink and van related costs it has come to £1770. 

(The two most expensive days were in the UK!)

It would have cost us a damn sight more to have done a similar length trip on the Broads!

 

The difference is the fact that you’ve made a capital investment in your motorhome.  If you’d hired a similar vehicle at say £150 per day, added insurance, cleaning costs, sat nav hire etc, you would have added probably around £3000 to your bill, making the holiday truly comparable.

We spent two weeks on our boat in July.  Pump outs x 2, 82 litres of diesel, food and eating out cost around £500.  Yes, if we hired a similar boat, it would have cost a lot more, but like you, we’ve made a substantial investment in the vehicle we used for our holiday, even if it is one of the ex Le Boat craft that from a previous comment, you found inadequate.

Jumping on the ‘The Broads are too expensive’ bus is easy, but if you make a comparison, make it like for like.

[DAVIDH]

29 minutes ago, Cal said:

It would have cost us a damn sight more to have done a similar length trip on the Broads!

Without discounting what you say Cal, don't forget that you already own your holiday accommodation. 

[Happy]

1 hour ago, Hylander said:

Blimey I was born in 1945 ,  I hope there are many more like me still around,  I intend to live until I am in my 100s.   So look out.

 

 

  Bloody hell!  There is someone older than me (just) on here. Enjoy.  I do  

[Cal]

12 minutes ago, DAVIDH said:

Without discounting what you say Cal, don't forget that you already own your holiday accommodation. 

A similar van could be hired for £750 a week so add £1500 to the total. You would probably get a discount on that for a longer hire.

It would still cost a lot more to holiday in the UK.

We had a week on the Broads earlier in the year and the total expenditure for that 9 day trip was £1440 doing far less miles with similar pattern of eating and drinking out and without the costs of the tunnel and animal health certificate. 

[Cal]

19 minutes ago, Mouldy said:

The difference is the fact that you’ve made a capital investment in your motorhome.  If you’d hired a similar vehicle at say £150 per day, added insurance, cleaning costs, sat nav hire etc, you would have added probably around £3000 to your bill, making the holiday truly comparable.

We spent two weeks on our boat in July.  Pump outs x 2, 82 litres of diesel, food and eating out cost around £500.  Yes, if we hired a similar boat, it would have cost a lot more, but like you, we’ve made a substantial investment in the vehicle we used for our holiday, even if it is one of the ex Le Boat craft that from a previous comment, you found inadequate.

Jumping on the ‘The Broads are too expensive’ bus is easy, but if you make a comparison, make it like for like.

It wasn't the boat model that was inadequate it was the way that particular boat was maintained and cleaned, or not in that case.

As I have just said in a previous post we had a week on the Broads earlier in the year with the van and if you discount the Eurotunnel fees and pet travel fees then you are not far off the same expenditure for 9 days as we have just had 17 with very similar pattern if eating out and drinking out.

[Mouldy]

8 minutes ago, Cal said:

A similar van could be hired for £750 a week so add £1500 to the total. You would probably get a discount on that for a longer hire.

It would still cost a lot more to holiday in the UK.

We had a week on the Broads earlier in the year and the total expenditure for that 9 day trip was £1440 doing far less miles with similar pattern of eating and drinking out and without the costs of the tunnel and animal health certificate. 

Quote for 17 nights below, obviously bearing in mind that these dates are later in the year and will be lower than for when you started your trip.  Add in vets, tunnel, food, eating out, charges for overnight stays etc and it is still not a cheap holiday.

[Cal]

9 minutes ago, Mouldy said:

Quote for 17 nights below, obviously bearing in mind that these dates are later in the year and will be lower than for when you started your trip.  Add in vets, tunnel, food, eating out, charges for overnight stays etc and it is still not a cheap holiday.

Just tried looking for a 4 berth boat on the Broads for the same dates. Nothing came up under £2k.

And the fact of the matter is (proven by our own figures) that holidaying, eating out and drinking out costs more in the UK than elsewhere.

How do you convince someone to pay more money for a not dissimilar holiday while taking a huge gamble with the weather and paying increased eating and drinking costs?

The Broads have had it good while they have had a captive audience. They now need to pull something out of the hat to keep that audience interested while competing with cheaper foreign travel and an increased cost of living.

[Mouldy]

23 minutes ago, Cal said:

Just tried looking for a 4 berth boat on the Broads for the same dates. Nothing came up under £2k.

And the fact of the matter is (proven by our own figures) that holidaying, eating out and drinking out costs more in the UK than elsewhere.

How do you convince someone to pay more money for a not dissimilar holiday while taking a huge gamble with the weather and paying increased eating and drinking costs?

The Broads have had it good while they have had a captive audience. They now need to pull something out of the hat to keep that audience interested while competing with cheaper foreign travel and an increased cost of living.

My quote was for a two berth motorhome.  I have no doubt that a larger, more commodious vehicle would cost more.  You can justify your choice any way you like.  You’ve had a boat and moved on, but some people, me included, have a preference for a holiday afloat.

Until I retired and reached the age of 65, I’d held an HGV licence from the age of 21.  Admittedly, I’d moved into management and hadn’t driven for a living for over 25 years, but I’ve still driven more miles in my lifetime than most folk who haven’t driven for a living, at times driving more than 2000 miles a week.  Personally, I find no joy in driving, especially on our pot-holed, congested roads and can think of better ways to spend my leisure time.  Again, driving in France is much easier, but if you use the Autoroutes, can be exceptionally expensive.  Our last trip to the Gorge du Verdon in 2016 was one such example, when using a toll tag we came home to a bill of over £200.

As for the weather, we went to Argeles sur Mer in 2017 for two weeks and it rained every day.  The temper one day was a dizzy 14 degrees c.  It doesn’t matter where you go - the weather isn’t guaranteed anywhere.

When hiring a boat that has cost over £200,000 to build, how much is a reasonable cost to hire, maintain and clean it?

[PaulN]

5 hours ago, MauriceMynah said:

If people want "things to do" send them to Butlins. If they want to chill, relax and enjoy the peace and tranquility the Broads has to offer, then they've come to the right place.

 

 

How right you are. Where else is there in the UK that you are so relaxed that you wave to complete strangers when passing by. 

[Mouldy]

7 hours ago, riverman said:

I don't think it's that hire boats are too expensive, it's that a broads holiday represents extremely poor value for money by modern standards. 

We often discuss this at work, we'll be in Hoveton sitting down having a brew on the barge, looking around and asking, what is there to do here? 

Nothing, the answer is nothing. Other than Bewilderwood there has been no major investment into anything that anyone would want to actually go to for years. 

'Well you can stop at the pubs' .... right 👍 Let's not beat around the bush, by modern standards, most of them aren't great and they charge absurd prices. 

'You can look at the wildlife and all the nature' ... but you could stay in a cottage slightly further away, for a fraction of the price, drive to Neatishead Boardwalk etc and explore on foot.

Why is Hoveton/Wroxham a run down mess and not the Henley of the broads? Or Beccles for that matter? Why aren't there more events that holidaymakers can an engage in? Why is there no where to go? Why is there nothing to do? Why is there no where to moor?

Pre-rona price hike a broads holiday represented reasonable-ish value for money, now it doesn't. Unfortunately, for far too long the hire boats were cheaper than they should have been, so putting prices back down isn't really an option. The only option is investment and a willingness from those in a place of authority to let the broads go forward. From my experience, and as you can see at the moment in the hospitality sector, people are still very willing to spend money, if there getting decent value for it. 

 

 

What facilities or activities would you suggest for the area?  Surely, if you want a theme park, you’d go to Yarmouth.  Hoveton may seem a run down mess to you, but what do you expect?  Like most towns in the country, online shopping and out of town shopping centres have affected the the area.  Our own local town is full of charity shops.  Things are hard enough for businesses to survive in these times, never mind tourist influenced ones.

You mention high prices for food, but we’ve eaten in a pub local to us and there doesn't appear to be any difference.  Pub staples like a burger, pie or fish and chips seem to be similarly priced at riverside pubs as they do local to me.

As a hirer, there are more places to moor than for owners.  A holiday afloat is different to a land based one, so if land based is your preference, just do it and don’t knock The Broads for what it is.  I’ve been visiting for more than fifty years and it is quieter than it was back in the sixties and seventies, but boat ownership has increased whilst the size of hire fleets has shrunk.

I don’t need amusements to keep me happy and nor do others, reading a comment from a first time hirer on Facebook.  I’d post their comment, but it would be in contravention of our TOS, but to quote:

‘Got back yesterday from a wonderful week on the Norfolk Broads.  This was our first ti e and we loved it,  it was the most chilled out holiday I’ve had in a long time.  100% will be back to do it again.’

[Cal]

19 minutes ago, Mouldy said:

My quote was for a two berth motorhome.  I have no doubt that a larger, more commodious vehicle would cost more.  You can justify your choice any way you like.  You’ve had a boat and moved on, but some people, me included, have a preference for a holiday afloat.

Until I retired and reached the age of 65, I’d held an HGV licence from the age of 21.  Admittedly, I’d moved into management and hadn’t driven for a living for over 25 years, but I’ve still driven more miles in my lifetime than most folk who haven’t driven for a living, at times driving more than 2000 miles a week.  Personally, I find no joy in driving, especially on our pot-holed, congested roads and can think of better ways to spend my leisure time.  Again, driving in France is much easier, but if you use the Autoroutes, can be exceptionally expensive.  Our last trip to the Gorge du Verdon in 2016 was one such example, when using a toll tag we came home to a bill of over £200.

As for the weather, we went to Argeles sur Mer in 2017 for two weeks and it rained every day.  The temper one day was a dizzy 14 degrees c.  It doesn’t matter where you go - the weather isn’t guaranteed anywhere.

When hiring a boat that has cost over £200,000 to build, how much is a reasonable cost to hire, maintain and clean it?

But again. You chose to use the toll roads. We have spent €0 on tolls. We were on holiday. It was nice to see the French countryside and villages. 

I think however you choose to butter it up. A holiday in the UK is expensive compared to elsewhere. The cost of eating out, drinking out and shopping if you are going to eat onboard are more than elsewhere in the EU for an equivalent meal.

And let's not forget that your "holiday" choice has to include mooring fees, licence fees, insurance and safety certificates. It certainly isn't as cheap as you would lead people to believe. Mooring fees alone on the Broads are expensive. 

I'm not knocking the place. We have loved it in the past. But at present do not see it value for money however you travel there.

 

[Cal]

22 minutes ago, PaulN said:

How right you are. Where else is there in the UK that you are so relaxed that you wave to complete strangers when passing by. 

Anywhere on the roads it would seem. Got a sore arm from waving at overly enthusiastic motorhomers 🤣🤣🤣

[Mouldy]

10 minutes ago, Cal said:

But again. You chose to use the toll roads. We have spent €0 on tolls. We were on holiday. It was nice to see the French countryside and villages. 

I think however you choose to butter it up. A holiday in the UK is expensive compared to elsewhere. The cost of eating out, drinking out and shopping if you are going to eat onboard are more than elsewhere in the EU for an equivalent meal.

And let's not forget that your "holiday" choice has to include mooring fees, licence fees, insurance and safety certificates. It certainly isn't as cheap as you would lead people to believe. Mooring fees alone on the Broads are expensive. 

I'm not knocking the place. We have loved it in the past. But at present do not see it value for money however you travel there.

 

We used toll roads, because of the distance we travelled.  We went to the Ardeche a couple of times, keeping off the toll roads, but spent on overnight hotel accommodation instead.

I know about the standing charges for keeping a boat.  Keeping a motorhome isn’t free, either.  Tax, insurance an£ running costs all need to be taken into consideration, and we wouldn’t be allowed to keep one on our drive either, it would need to be stored elsewhere, at cost.

I agree that eating out in the UK is expensive, some places more so than others.  Two regular cod and chips to take away in Looe, Cornwall, earlier this year cost £24.  However, even with a motorhome, you’ll still take breaks in the UK surely, so will still suffer the costs experienced over here anyway at times.

Im not buttering up the UK as a holiday destination, but it is not as one sided as your original cost comparison would have us believe.  My point still stands, if you compare like for like, the cost differential is not as great as you suggest, due to you owning the vehicle in which you took your holiday and to be fair, for a lot of people, investing upwards of £60,000 in a similar motorhome, is way out of reach.

[riverman]

51 minutes ago, Mouldy said:

What facilities or activities would you suggest for the area?  Surely, if you want a theme park, you’d go to Yarmouth.  Hoveton may seem a run down mess to you, but what do you expect?  Like most towns in the country, online shopping and out of town shopping centres have affected the the area.  Our own local town is full of charity shops.  Things are hard enough for businesses to survive in these times, never mind tourist influenced ones.

As a hirer, there are more places to moor than for owners.  A holiday afloat is different to a land based one, so if land based is your preference, just do it and don’t knock The Broads for what it is.  I’ve been visiting for more than fifty years and it is quieter than it was back in the sixties and seventies, but boat ownership has increased whilst the size of hire fleets has shrunk.

I don’t need amusements to keep me happy and nor do others, reading a comment from a first time hirer on Facebook.  I’d post their comment, but it would be in contravention of our TOS, but to quote:

Facilities or activities? Anything. Something. A Waveney river style centre for the north. Significantly more moorings and advertising for the amazing powerboating at Oulton Broad. A regatta or paddle board race or something, anything in the middle of Wroxham or Beccles. Food festivals. Beer festivals. Boat festivals. And massively more boat access to our fine city. 

Just something other than pubs really.

And what do I expected? Progress. Ingenuity. Investment. Nothing too unreasonable. What is essentially the heart of the broads deserves to look and operate a damn sight better than it does.

Now unfortunately I've never visited the Broads, I've only ever worked, started a business and lived here my entire life, so excuse me if I knock it but it's only because I have vested interest in it's continued success. There is nothing about this man made environment that is set in stone and it needs to change with the times.

 

7 hours ago, Troyboy said:

Your first sentence seems to be a contradiction. I love hiring boats but I think it is expensive.

We all look for different things in the broads but I never sit on the boat and wonder what there is to do. For me it's a magical place. The quieter the better. 

Apologies I don't see how it's a contradiction. Value for money has nothing to do with how much something costs. 

Considering your modern hire boat is a floating mobile apartment that sleeps 6+, where you can do everything you could at home, and that it probably cost double if not triple to build than a motorhome, I think there reasonably priced.

[Cal]

48 minutes ago, Mouldy said:

We used toll roads, because of the distance we travelled.  We went to the Ardeche a couple of times, keeping off the toll roads, but spent on overnight hotel accommodation instead.

I know about the standing charges for keeping a boat.  Keeping a motorhome isn’t free, either.  Tax, insurance an£ running costs all need to be taken into consideration, and we wouldn’t be allowed to keep one on our drive either, it would need to be stored elsewhere, at cost.

I agree that eating out in the UK is expensive, some places more so than others.  Two regular cod and chips to take away in Looe, Cornwall, earlier this year cost £24.  However, even with a motorhome, you’ll still take breaks in the UK surely, so will still suffer the costs experienced over here anyway at times.

Im not buttering up the UK as a holiday destination, but it is not as one sided as your original cost comparison would have us believe.  My point still stands, if you compare like for like, the cost differential is not as great as you suggest, due to you owning the vehicle in which you took your holiday and to be fair, for a lot of people, investing upwards of £60,000 in a similar motorhome, is way out of reach.

Having had both a boat and a motorhome the cost of owning, running and storing the motorhome are considerably less than the same were for the boat and we didn't keep the boat in an expensive part of the UK. We could never justify the cost of keeping NC on the Broads. The travel time to get there would have meant we used her far less.

We do use the van in the UK. As I said in an earlier post a 9 day holiday in Norfolk cost not far off the same as our French trip of over 2 weeks. We use the van pretty much every other weekend as well. We bought it to use it.

We still love travelling in the UK. That won't change. Living in the Midlands nipping on the train to Europe every weekend isn't an option. Much the same as heading to the UK coast isn't realistically.

Thankfully there are still places you can visit in the UK that are not extortionately priced and we are ideally located to have a lot of options within an hours drive of home for weekend breaks.

The Broads was where our love affair with boats started. It will always hold a special place in our hearts. Sometimes though, just sometimes, the rose tinted spectacles need removing and a dose of reality administering. It ain't perfect. But was it ever?

 

[Cal]

4 minutes ago, riverman said:

Facilities or activities? Anything. Something. A Waveney river style centre for the north. Significantly more moorings and advertising for the amazing powerboating at Oulton Broad. A regatta or paddle board race or something, anything in the middle of Wroxham or Beccles. Food festivals. Beer festivals. Boat festivals. And massively more boat access to our fine city. 

Just something other than pubs really.

And what do I expected? Progress. Ingenuity. Investment. Nothing too unreasonable. What is essentially the heart of the broads deserves to look and operate a damn sight better than it does.

Now unfortunately I've never visited the Broads, I've only ever worked, started a business and lived here my entire life, so excuse me if I knock it but it's only because I have vested interest in it's continued success. There is nothing about this man made environment that is set in stone and it needs to change with the times.

 

Apologies I don't see how it's a contradiction. Value for money has nothing to do with how much something costs. 

Considering your modern hire boat is a floating mobile apartment that sleeps 6+, where you can do everything you could at home, and that it probably cost double if not triple to build than a motorhome, I think there reasonably priced.

I almost agreed with you there until I thought about it again.

A motorhome will be on hire for 3 years, 4 max then sold on into private hands before being replaced with a new one. Hire motorhomes are very rarely more than 3 years old. People expect new, the hire companies give them that unless they are at the budget end of the market. New motorhomes are now expensive. You won't get a decent spec van for much less than £80k now.

A boat that costs a few times more will be on hire for 20, 30, 40 years, in some cases more.

The boat will pay for itself many many times over in that time!

[riverman]

5 minutes ago, Cal said:

I almost agreed with you there until I thought about it again.

A motorhome will be on hire for 3 years, 4 max then sold on into private hands before being replaced with a new one. Hire motorhomes are very rarely more than 3 years old. People expect new, the hire companies give them that unless they are at the budget end of the market. New motorhomes are now expensive. You won't get a decent spec van for much less than £80k now.

A boat that costs a few times more will be on hire for 20, 30, 40 years, in some cases more.

The boat will pay for itself many many times over in that time!

Apologies, you've lost me. I was trying to say that a hire boat, considering the initial investment, horrendous operating cost of a hire boat yard and the fact they can sleep so many, represent reasonable value for money for the end user, not that they aren't profitable. 

[BrundallNavy]

This weekend was the busiest I have seen it all year, the yards cannot complain about September bookings. 

[Smoggy]

3 hours ago, PaulN said:

How right you are. Where else is there in the UK that you are so relaxed that you wave to complete strangers when passing by. 

Many care homes, some you can get a hug too.....

[SwanR]

Good or bad, and I'm keeping my thoughts to myself on this one, as both a hirer and a resident ... here's a snapshot of where we all love to be ... out on the river. There hasn't been too much opportunity to be out with my camera this year so it's really short ... but please like and subscribe if you want to keep up with my occasional releases.

 

[marshman]

Riverman -actually there is plenty to do in Wroxham ,and with respect, you can have little imagination! There is a train station you can use to get into Norwich, one of Englands nicest cities,or go the other way and you can get to Cromer or Sheringham the latter which is especially attractive. Wroxham is also the terminus of the Bure Valley railway - get on that and you can get to Aylsham, another attractive little town. There is also a bike facility hire you can use to explore many quiet lanes and some stunning scenery - aha you will say but I expect this all to be free if I have hired a boat. Only in your dreams!

You could also get up of your boat and go into one of the largest model railway exhibitions in Europe - but then you would have to pay for it and whilst you seem to want people to invest and not get any return, is that realistic

Did you you into the Information Centre and ask what you could see? Walk up to Wroxham Barns, a craft centre not too far away? You could also take the opportunity to sail a Victorian pleasure wherry.

It seems that you want people to invest yet your expectation seems to be for free entertainment handed to you on a plate . I am afraid life isn't like that.

 

[riverman]

12 minutes ago, marshman said:

Riverman -actually there is plenty to do in Wroxham ,and with respect, you can have little imagination! There is a train station you can use to get into Norwich, one of Englands nicest cities,or go the other way and you can get to Cromer or Sheringham the latter which is especially attractive. Wroxham is also the terminus of the Bure Valley railway - get on that and you can get to Aylsham, another attractive little town. There is also a bike facility hire you can use to explore many quiet lanes and some stunning scenery - aha you will say but I expect this all to be free if I have hired a boat. Only in your dreams!

You could also get up of your boat and go into one of the largest model railway exhibitions in Europe - but then you would have to pay for it and whilst you seem to want people to invest and not get any return, is that realistic

Did you you into the Information Centre and ask what you could see? Walk up to Wroxham Barns, a craft centre not too far away? You could also take the opportunity to sail a Victorian pleasure wherry.

It seems that you want people to invest yet your expectation seems to be for free entertainment handed to you on a plate . I am afraid life isn't like that.

 

Wow, thank you so much, that wasn't patronising at all. Exactly the kind of attitude we need to see the broads through the next 50-60 years, thank goodness you're here to correct me.

So basically, everything is 100% fine as it is, no room for criticism or improvement. Just pay 2 grand for a boat, walk your young family on a rainy day to Wroxham barns, get on a train and travel somewhere else? (because there's so much to see and do on the Broads/Wroxham), hop aboard a Wherry to see all of the same things you've just travelled past to get there if there running that day, sit in (various) eating establishments and pay £25 for a microwave meal on a posh plate. Perfect.

Nothings free, nobody expects things to be free. I don't want things to be free. I just want more things. And of better quality. And I'm actually quite willing to contribute towards them. 

[MauriceMynah]

So many thoughts are crossing my mind I hardly know where to start.

I'm reminded of a group of youngsters gathered at a street corner complaining that there's nothing to do.  When asked what they'd like to do,  they replied "Dunno, whatever!"

I'm further reminded of yuppies who live in a bland little town, finding a delightful little village and moving home to it.

A while later, so many have moved there that a Tesco's opens. All the lovely little independent shops become Estate agents or charity shops and hey presto, that delightful little village becomes another bland little town.

Wherever people go, they want more, they want better. They want to go further away for their holiday than their neighbours.  One thing they never seem to be is 'content'.

Finally on this catalogue of random thoughts, I'm reminded of a mantra ...

Happiness is not getting what you want,  it's wanting what you get. 

 

[rightsaidfred]

This debate seems to have lost direction  now and  has become quite misleading.

There is no realistic comparison between the Broads experiance and any other type of holiday, even boating on the Thames is different and more expensive, canals and Scottish Locks etc wouldn't suit all Broads lovers either and the reverse applies.

Different people want different things some want to sit round a swimming pool on a Costa wherever some travel the world or go on a cruise, the Broads as an experiance will only ever appeal to a relatively small section of the population, many peoples expectations have changed over the years along with the average lifestyle you can't and won't ever turn the Broads into a one size fits all location and most of us that love them don't want and wouldn't welcome that, they are what they are and need to be accepted as such.

Fred