Good Or Bad Year?

[grendel]

18 minutes ago, JanetAnne said:

To the left is a Delight (as in a Water Rail) but I can't quite make the number out. B7 something, but most of them were b7 something!

B76 - Delight 6

[LondonRascal]

I am not going to argue that Daniel Thwaite does not know his stuff - he deals with all four sides of Broads 'business square' from that of boat hire, holiday accommodation, boat sales and marina private moorings.  I don't see how you can blame the weather any more though - it might affect things, but when many book well in advance are they really basing a a holiday costing many hundreds if not thousands of pounds on if it is going to end up sunny when they go?

I think in the past though we have seen 'bad seasons' and then things make a bounce back, but now no more. I think this is the start of a real downturn in boating (for holidays) and as I have said before here and on Facebook commentary when this sort of point is raised (isn't it quiet this year) its not just weather and it is not just cost. It's relevance. Why do I say this? well put it bluntly you can see what the majority of people who go boating are by looking at data when you want to sell advertising on Facebook and target people who Facebook think will be a good base based on their likes, groups they belong to and interactions with things like boating. You can also see the many thousands of members (active or not) on the main Facebook groups dealing with boating on the Broads what areas they are from and the type of people they are. The average 'Gold Gem' hirer is the type who will have been more effected by the other things going up in life, food, energy, mortgage, and then things like just running a car - insurance costs have gone up a lot this year, fuel costs for it too. This impacts ever more on the disposable income for a holiday. So these (the bread an butter customer) is increasingly out through cost, there is no 'new blood' coming in to fill this gap.

In short, for probably decades now the industry has relied on loyalty and the same groups of people coming year after year - even if not with the same boatyard, they will still come to the Broads, it may be because they are a bit older, less mobile, kids have grown a little and there is less shore side activities for them - it could be a host of things, and many will say people are going aboard, but this too is more costly than it ever was before unless you are looking at more basic accommodation in less decent resorts. I think the industry needs to tap into a new type of customer or, I fear it will be toast. There has been a  huge shift in boaters, while there are some Stag and Hen parties still, nothing like in the numbers of the past, and some may welcome this but like it or not they brought in good money booking older, large boats up and then they would frequent riverside pubs in large groups spending a fortune on drink and that has shifted now. Another loss is affluent, younger couples - not married and without children from larger cities from say 25 to 30 years old where are these people on boats? Where are people from minority backgrounds with money to spend - they come on Dayboats why do not move up to an actual holiday hire boat? Why are decent river side properties doing okay, but not boating holidays?

Trust me there are many thousands of people not at all affected by the cost of living going up and spending on holidays and themselves, but it is vital such people are made aware of the Broads as a possible holiday destination and it is also vital that local businesses take note - look at how well The Granary is doing at Ranworth just as an example - complete change of direction compared to what this place was before and it has tapped into something big. Popple who want quality food, in a nice venue that is licenced, but not a pub.

My mother and step-dad have decided this October to hire a Narrowboat, it is not 'fancy' by any means, and it cost nearly £2,000 for a week - just as a new hire boat on the Broads might, but they found they had to go in October as this was one of the few weeks the boatyard had availability, which suggests Canal holidays are not in the same plight at the Broads - and they have the same weather and the their boats are not cheap...Back to the Broads not being relevant in my opinion anyway.

 

[Vaughan]

Very good post, thank you Robin. I agree with everything you say.

I remember those young couples that you mention were known as DINKYs - double income, no kids - and they were definitely a market to work on!

As to the weather, in the old days it made no difference at all to bookings as they were all in advance.  What it would definitely affect, would be the year after and that was most noticeable.  If you have suffered a cold and windy week on the Broads in August when it poured with rain every day, you don't want to repeat the experience next year!  Nowadays it might make a difference to those who book last minute for a short break off season but like you, I really don't think it is a contributory factor to the big problem.

For Dr Packman, in his position, to suggest that this evident recession is mainly down to bad weather, is very sad.

[Cheesey69]

Hiring a boat is no great value for money, as has been said. When I first hired, about 1996, the boat was still heated by gas and only had one battery.

But I expected that. I hoped one day to hire a connoisseur.

It was a cheapish holiday and we loved it.

Now you pay more, way more. The boats in itself are great, way more packed in them but, The Broads experience is lacking. You cant really moor where you like, you could back in the day because  of the greater number of hire yards to moor at within limits.

And that's the main point i get at the river bank. You spend fortunes on a boat only to cruise for a couple of hours and then spend a worrying amount of time finding a suitable mooring that is nowhere near any kind of shops.

Once you have been a couple of times, you learn the ways and can adjust but a first timer may struggle

[Hylander]

I think I could count on one hand over the last two decades the number of Broads holidays that we have had that have actually had decent weather.   We seem to cop the Autumn named storm each time , along with snow, fog, hail that looked like snow,  windows frozen up with Jack Frost patterns on them.   Oh the joys, but you cannot beat a Broads holiday.   So nowt to do with the weather.  I am surprised he hasn't blamed global warming or mental health which seems to be the fashion at the moment.    Next thing will be blaming on non vegan boats.      

[Gracie]

You are so right M, there's nothing quite like a Broads holiday and being afloat. With the rising costs, closing of moorings and paying to have to moor on top of all that, normal, hard working people won't be able to afford it and that's the real shame of it all 

As for the weather, I blame it on non vegan boats  x

[grendel]

2 hours ago, Vaughan said:

For Dr Packman, in his position, to suggest that this evident recession is mainly down to bad weather, is very sad.

probably because its the only factor he can blame without accepting the cause is from his own past actions such as excessive toll hikes.

[Vaughan]

24 minutes ago, Gracie said:

As for the weather, I blame it on non vegan boats  x

I blame it on Dr Packman.

[rightsaidfred]

11 minutes ago, grendel said:

probably because its the only factor he can blame without accepting the cause is from his own past actions such as excessive toll hikes.

Sadly just another example of the man's contempt for and the way he is prepared to insult the intelegance of the public in general and stakeholders in particular.

Fred

[Mouldy]

I would like to pick up on a something from Robin’s post - the lack of shoreside activities.  What shoreside activities are we suggesting?  Branches of Costa/Starbucks dotted around or more McDonalds?  Frankly, I can’t think of anything worse, but that said, I do fit into the long-standing, returning visitor category, who comes for the peace and tranquility of the area, not the throbbing nightlife.

My view is that, as a nation, our tastes have changed.  I know people now, who pop over to Prague for a weekend.  That sort of thing was unheard of back in the sixties and seventies, when foreign travel was becoming more available and as a result, more popular.  Long haul holidays are commonplace these days.

Places like Benidorm are ever popular - all inclusive deals with meals and drinks included give people on a tight budget, an real idea of cost and affordability.

Cruise liners are becoming ever larger.  I read about one that’s coming into service soon, to accommodate around 8,000 holiday makers.  That may be what some folk want - water slides, casinos, cinemas, onboard shopping malls and all, but does everyone crave the same thing?

Just over twenty years ago, we were invited to accompany my mum and dad on a cruise.  Dad paid - it was beyond our reach at the time.  It was a small boat, especially by today’s standards, carrying less than 600 passengers.  It was a little frayed at the edges, but absolutely good enough.  The food was ample and varied, the onboard facilities were adequate, but the atmosphere was great, the service from the crew was superb and the destinations we visited, were wonderful.  If we were to go on a cruise in the future, I would be looking for a similar ship, certainly not one of those oversized gin palaces that seem to be advertised so much.

As for Benidorm, do I really want to sit on a beach overlooked by multiple high rise hotels?  No, I don’t.  And that’s it really.  Different things suit different people.  I’m sure that the number of visitors who go to The Broads will stabilise.  Some young families will go and enjoy it, returning time and time again, whilst others will prefer their flyaway breaks.

There is no doubt that the area has had its heyday, but when the economy settles down and the post pandemic need to go abroad, following a few years when it wasn’t available, has subsided, visitors will return to pre pandemic levels.  I don’t remember a time when a boating holiday was ever cheap and for many at the moment, probably even taking a holiday anywhere is out of reach, never mind the weather, despite what the good doctor believes.

 

[Ray]

Good post Malcolm, another related point is wild moorings. I don't want 'facilities' but I love a little cut out in the bank for the ultimate peaceful evening enjoying the wildlife and being away from it all.

So many of these places have been lost, I know there are valid points about liability and rubbish clearance but it can't be impossible for some arrangements to be made between landowner and BA on an ad hoc basis.

As for the few but annoying home made no mooring signs put out by individuals to attempt to reserve favourite spots for themselves! It is quite rare but I've seen them and I imagine most of us have and at the very least had suspicions about their validity!

I don't believe very much really needs to change to reinvigorate the Broads Holiday market, at the most simple level it needs targeted advertising to people who basically like "outdoor holidays" and not so much to people who want a "lifestyle" experience.

If you enjoy camping a boat is a luxury, if you enjoy a hotel and service a boat is not going to... er... float your boat?

[Mouldy]

44 minutes ago, Ray said:

 . . . . . . . . . . . . .I don't believe very much really needs to change to reinvigorate the Broads Holiday market, at the most simple level it needs targeted advertising to people who basically like "outdoor holidays" and not so much to people who want a "lifestyle" experience.

If you enjoy camping a boat is a luxury, if you enjoy a hotel and service a boat is not going to... er... float your boat?

Exactly, Ray.  There are surely a certain type of people who would never entertain the idea of a ‘self catering’ holiday, preferring to be waited upon, to have their beds turned back and not have to worry about anything other than enjoying themselves.  No matter what you do to The Broads, they will never attract that sort of people.  That’s not to mention the lack of kudos at a dinner party or the golf club.  Imagine the conversation:

‘Where did you go for your holiday?’

‘We went to Cape Verde’

’We went to the West Indies’

‘We went on a Mediterranean cruise’

’We went on a hire boat on The Norfolk Broads’

Just like buying a Skoda, which is after all these days a rebadged Audi or Volkswagen (oh, yes it is!), is just an unacceptable alternative, there is a certain value in some social circles to a badge, label or holiday destination.  The Broads will never compete, no matter how attractive you tried to make them.

56 minutes ago, Ray said:

 . . . . . . . another related point is wild moorings. I don't want 'facilities' but I love a little cut out in the bank for the ultimate peaceful evening enjoying the wildlife and being away from it all.

So many of these places have been lost . . . . . . . . . 

And a good many were lost when the EA re-profiled the river banks a few years ago, for flood defence reasons.  In the process, they ripped out a lot of piling and quay heading, where it used to be safe to moor.  A few locations have been reclaimed - there are a couple on Fleet Dyke, near the junction of The Bure, where the reeds have been hacked away, but it seems that the modern boater doesn’t have the appetite for creating more.

 

[YnysMon]

2 hours ago, Mouldy said:

And a good many were lost when the EA re-profiled the river banks a few years ago, for flood defence reasons.  In the process, they ripped out a lot of piling and quay heading, where it used to be safe to moor.  A few locations have been reclaimed - there are a couple on Fleet Dyke, near the junction of The Bure, where the reeds have been hacked away, but it seems that the modern boater doesn’t have the appetite for creating more

Trouble is, by the time we get to the busier season, late July, areas that offered a wild mooring in previous years are so overgrown with nettles etc. that it would take a very determined boater to moor there. I'm thinking of a wild mooring we used just past Acle Bridge moorings and Fleet Dyke at Rockland St Mary. 

[kpnut]

4 hours ago, Ray said:

the most simple level it needs targeted advertising to people who basically like "outdoor holidays" and not so much to people who want a "lifestyle" experience

As I was reading this thread and getting things in my head, I was going to post that the Broads area is scruffy compared with lots of holiday areas. Now, I don’t mind that at all, (although I do think even in the past 6 years the place has gone downhill), but if you’ve spent out £2000 I think you would be. 
We, who are regular visitors see the place with different eyes to a first time holiday maker. And we realise that some of the scruffiness is just the wild nature of the environment. But some basics like screened off rubbish facilities, well positioned picnic benches with neatly mown grass on some moorings and the like go a long way to a good first impression. Definitely not saying that all moorings need this, but ask why Ranworth and Womack are so popular - they are little central hubs, picturesque (even with the goose poo)! Coltishall is another place with a sort of ‘continental vibe’ to it - nice pub, nicely kept green space, village nearby. 

In many places I’ve visited on the continent, you get somewhere next to a river/lake etc and it’s inviting. A little parade of shops, selling icecream and drinks, somewhere to sit while the kids entertain themselves with a swing or seesaw. Go to Reedham or Acle Bridge, or Ludham Bridge and it should be the same. But somehow it’s not. 
 

I personally don’t need these things, but even the ‘outdoor types’ mentioned above that should be a target group, might have experienced these things abroad and be impressed by the same here. Consider the ‘aire’ at Wroxham, opposite the stern on moorings. In France there are plenty of these riverside/canalside stop off points for motor homes etc, with nice neat pitches, sometimes marked out with low growing hedges. In Wroxham you are in the corner of a rough piece of concrete. 
 

To attract holidaymakers the area has to be attractive to them. Tart it up with casinos, nightclubs etc and it becomes alien to many, while attracting many others, but providing nothing doesn’t really attract anyone. 

Thd real beauty of a broads boating holiday should be adventure, and nature mixed in with that holiday vibe of a few picturesque scenes and a few treats along the way. Lovely photos of sunsets are not the only thing people want on a costly holiday. 

[kpnut]

1 hour ago, YnysMon said:

Trouble is, by the time we get to the busier season, late July, areas that offered a wild mooring in previous years are so overgrown with nettles etc. that it would take a very determined boater to moor there. I'm

I was thinking just the same the other week Helen. It needs us lot who are out and about a lot to keep them used and trampled through early spring. I’ve earmarked a number of spots I’m going to try to moor up at over the winter when you can see what’s there. 
Once the fresh reed grows up, it just looks like there’s no solid ground. 
 

I was walking along from Acle Bridge, upstream towards Oby and the path crosses that large expanse of grass on the river frontage of the house by clippesby mill. There is no reason why there is a solid riverbank there, but that it suddenly disappears into marsh at each end where the grass hasn’t been mown. It’s just that we can’t see the bank. 

[Aboattime]

17 minutes ago, kpnut said:

As I was reading this thread and getting things in my head, I was going to post that the Broads area is scruffy compared with lots of holiday areas. Now, I don’t mind that at all, (although I do think even in the past 6 years the place has gone downhill), but if you’ve spent out £2000 I think you would be. 
We, who are regular visitors see the place with different eyes to a first time holiday maker. And we realise that some of the scruffiness is just the wild nature of the environment. But some basics like screened off rubbish facilities, well positioned picnic benches with neatly mown grass on some moorings and the like go a long way to a good first impression. Definitely not saying that all moorings need this, but ask why Ranworth and Womack are so popular - they are little central hubs, picturesque (even with the goose poo)! Coltishall is another place with a sort of ‘continental vibe’ to it - nice pub, nicely kept green space, village nearby. 

In many places I’ve visited on the continent, you get somewhere next to a river/lake etc and it’s inviting. A little parade of shops, selling icecream and drinks, somewhere to sit while the kids entertain themselves with a swing or seesaw. Go to Reedham or Acle Bridge, or Ludham Bridge and it should be the same. But somehow it’s not. 
 

I personally don’t need these things, but even the ‘outdoor types’ mentioned above that should be a target group, might have experienced these things abroad and be impressed by the same here. Consider the ‘aire’ at Wroxham, opposite the stern on moorings. In France there are plenty of these riverside/canalside stop off points for motor homes etc, with nice neat pitches, sometimes marked out with low growing hedges. In Wroxham you are in the corner of a rough piece of concrete. 
 

To attract holidaymakers the area has to be attractive to them. Tart it up with casinos, nightclubs etc and it becomes alien to many, while attracting many others, but providing nothing doesn’t really attract anyone. 

Thd real beauty of a broads boating holiday should be adventure, and nature mixed in with that holiday vibe of a few picturesque scenes and a few treats along the way. Lovely photos of sunsets are not the only thing people want on a costly holiday. 

Ive often thought for some time that up stream of Wroxham bridge is very tatty. The riverside front from the King Head up to and including the park is very un loved. The Park has more fenced off area every time i visit, i will be back on Monday to see what work has been done to improve it but i wont hold my breath.Opposite is the old Connoisseur yard, the old reception office reception office is a real eye sore,but there are new rubbish bins!The moorings above the railway bridge and bridge broad are lovely,but im not sure Wroxham should be called" The Capital of the Broads".

[YnysMon]

2 hours ago, kpnut said:

But some basics like screened off rubbish facilities, well positioned picnic benches with neatly mown grass on some moorings and the like go a long way to a good first impression. Definitely not saying that all moorings need this, but ask why Ranworth and Womack are so popular - they are little central hubs, picturesque (even with the goose poo)! Coltishall is another place with a sort of ‘continental vibe’ to it - nice pub, nicely kept green space, village nearby. 

I think you've hit the nail on the head here Kate. It wouldn't take much effort and money to make a lot of the popular mooring locations more attractive.

Another thing that has stuck me has been the number of queries from hirers with young children about accessibility to playgrounds. Quite often, these are within a reasonable distance from moorings (thinking of Horning and Stokesby), but too often out of sight and not signposted. Families shouldn't have to rely on visits to a pub to find a play area for kids. 

[Cal]

The Broads is competing with foreign holidays again. It has had a captive audience for a few years with foreign travel off the cards. 

It now has to compete with foreign travel again. 

This year might be a wake up call for the hire yards that they have to offer value for money again to entice customers back.

We have hired, had our own boat and moved away from that. At current hire rates we won't be tempted back any time soon. Its too expensive and doesn't offer value for money anymore. 

Could we be tempted back? Yes at the right price.

We are DINKYs so don't struggle for disposable income but we still don't find it good value. 

[CambridgeCabby]

This past week I have met many first time boaters and without exception they have loved their time afloat and want to return , the days of customers coming back year on year may have changed but the magic is still there for many , Kate and myself included.

A holiday afloat is still a wonderful experience , yes tastes and expectations have changed , the populous want to visit far flung destinations , want wifi connection all of the time and expect more than standard pub grub to be proffered BUT there are those who still love the tranquility and beauty of the Broads and will continue to do so , all is not doom and gloom 

[Wussername]

1 hour ago, CambridgeCabby said:

This past week I have met many first time boaters and without exception they have loved their time afloat and want to return , the days of customers coming back year on year may have changed but the magic is still there for many , Kate and myself included.

A holiday afloat is still a wonderful experience , yes tastes and expectations have changed , the populous want to visit far flung destinations , want wifi connection all of the time and expect more than standard pub grub to be proffered BUT there are those who still love the tranquility and beauty of the Broads and will continue to do so , all is not doing and gloom 

 

Thank you CC

A very welcome  positive post which will go some way to encourage those who may be dissuaded from coming by those whose comments are far removed from positive criticism.

Andrew

 

[MauriceMynah]

Now, I know I must be missing something, but I'm not sure what.

Boating and the "Broads experience" is loved by a minority group, the likes of which is represented by members of this forum.

Back in the 60s, boat ownership was very rare. We on the hire craft watched the private craft go passed with awe and envy. Then along came the 70s and companies like Norman, Seamaster and Freeman. (Plus many others) putting private ownership within the grasp of normal people.

Now, that minority group could travel the Broads  in their own boats. Some, like my parents, had their own boat local to them but still hired on the Broads. It was great to be on a boat that was 42ft rather than 22ft. 

I suspect that was the start where there were fewer hire craft but more private boats.

Then hire fleets started selling off their older boats, again at a price that was affordable. This accelerated the move from hire craft to private boats. 

The customer base didn't change much, as far as holidays afloat went, but hire yards had to start offering facilities that made their craft luxury boats rather than those hum drum private jobbies.

That, I think, brings us up to the present day. Yards trying to hire out their "Rolls Royces" whilst we, who remember fondly those halcyon days, take out our own Fords.

That is the way the Broads have evolved, and that is why we are so frightened of the likes of the good Dr. 

We seem to understand it, he seems not to.

[kpnut]

2 hours ago, CambridgeCabby said:

This past week I have met many first time boaters and without exception they have loved their time afloat and want to return , the days of customers coming back year on year may have changed but the magic is still there for many , Kate and myself included.

A holiday afloat is still a wonderful experience , yes tastes and expectations have changed , the populous want to visit far flung destinations , want wifi connection all of the time and expect more than standard pub grub to be proffered BUT there are those who still love the tranquility and beauty of the Broads and will continue to do so , all is not doing and gloom 

It certainly isn’t all doom and gloom Simon. I hope I wasn’t suggesting it so.
I expect the first timers who chat have already ‘fallen’ for the true nature of the Broads. I was completely smitten within about 5 minutes of my first hire from Richardson’s. I certainly hadn’t got as far as the Sutton junction when I had already vowed to come again later that year. And within another hire, vowed I would somehow buy a boat someday. It took another three years but was the best decision I’ve ever made. 
 

You either ‘get it’ or you don’t in my opinion. 

It’s the ones who don’t who need wooing and enticing in for a repeat performance. They go home and tell their friends etc that it wasn’t what they thought and that’s another chunk of custom gone. 

[OldBerkshireBoy]

On 14/09/2023 at 08:43, woody223 said:

I have hired a boat half a dozen times over the past decade, One thing has struck me the rising costs imposed on me by all parties. The boat yards charging more per litre for red diesel than white. Last year it was£1.44 when I can get it for 89p at home. 

If it was as simple as that then there would be filling stations with pump out services every 5 miles along the rivers. 

[grendel]

6 hours ago, kpnut said:

I was thinking just the same the other week Helen. It needs us lot who are out and about a lot to keep them used and trampled through early spring. I’ve earmarked a number of spots I’m going to try to moor up at over the winter when you can see what’s there. 
Once the fresh reed grows up, it just looks like there’s no solid ground. 
 

I was walking along from Acle Bridge, upstream towards Oby and the path crosses that large expanse of grass on the river frontage of the house by clippesby mill. There is no reason why there is a solid riverbank there, but that it suddenly disappears into marsh at each end where the grass hasn’t been mown. It’s just that we can’t see the bank. 

if all the private boats that wild moor carried the means to just trim a patch wide enough to get ashore it would go some way toward redressing the balance, I know after my experience on short dyke I will go next time prepared to at least trim a path to the footpath there.

[Jeep15]

Must say it's the busiest I have seen it in September for a very long time.

Richardson's almost empty and The Southern Broads very busy. Loads of Northern hire boats down here.

Do you think that the hirers that know The Broads have got more savvy and gamble on the weather and of course the much reduced prices after the kids go back to school. IMHO it's not a kids holiday anyway and a savvy couple can get a boat much cheaper in September than in August.

We thought we were being smart by never going out in August and doing our long holidays in June/ July and then them again in September but we may have to re think and Go out in August as this seems like when all the hire fleets are laying in due to excessive cost.