Flooding

[Lulu]

https://www.edp24.co.uk/news/24150234.norfolk-broads-firms-raise-fears-potter-heigham-bridge/

[SwanR]

Interesting article. Thanks for the link Sam. 👍

[Roy]

Thanks that’s a interesting article when I was talking about potter bridge to someone (a engineer) the other week he suggested a lock just after HW entrance and after the bypass bridge so the water is lower around the bridge giving a steady clearance. 
my reply was great idea but BA wouldn’t pay for this could you imagine what the tolls would be if that happened. 
 

such a shame the broads seem to changing at a alarming rate how long is it before wroxham bridge is like potter ? 

[YnysMon]

On 01/03/2024 at 16:05, kpnut said:

On a lighter note re:flooding and cos Smoggy and Griff mentioned getting under the bridges on another thread - 

I had a strange dream about Wroxham bridge last night. It felt like it was in real time, full colour and motion etc. 

I was in Wroxham at high tide according to the aweigh app and noticed the bridge only had enough space for a kayak to get under.
Funnily enough, it was Wroxham with the environs correct and folk on the other bridge looking down, but the bridge itself was flat topped like Ludham Bridge. 
 

You’ve obviously got a bridge anxiety or whatever going on. I’m just relieved that I no longer wake up on the first night or two when back home thinking I’m still on the boat, to the extent that I’d get up and peer out of the window expecting to look out over water or a mooring. Mind you, it only happened after holidays when we hired, not after we’ve been on Moonlight Shadow. 

[kpnut]

1 hour ago, YnysMon said:

You’ve obviously got a bridge anxiety or whatever going on.

Seeing as I won’t be back on the rivers till long after the water’s gone down (that is assuming that one day it will do so!) my head says the bridge can do what it likes. 
But of course that’s not true, I care for everyone else wanting to get through it. 
I think the dream was more an observation than a worry. 
Painting of Sprjnger’s Retreat hasn’t even begun yet 😥😥😥

 

[YnysMon]

2 hours ago, kpnut said:

Painting of Sprjnger’s Retreat hasn’t even begun yet

Oh no! I was hoping you’d be back on the rivers soon.

[BroadAmbition]

how long is it before Wrotham bridge is like potter

It already is and has been since October and we are now in March   

Griff

[Hylander]

10 hours ago, YnysMon said:

You’ve obviously got a bridge anxiety or whatever going on. I’m just relieved that I no longer wake up on the first night or two when back home thinking I’m still on the boat, to the extent that I’d get up and peer out of the window expecting to look out over water or a mooring. Mind you, it only happened after holidays when we hired, not after we’ve been on Moonlight Shadow. 

Snap    -    I too on returning from a boating holiday always for about 2 weeks woke up and wondered where I was, and sitting at my desk I used feel movement of the boat, very strange (dont answer that one).     As for bridges once we have gone through I am permanently dreading not being able to get back.

[Gracie]

When I was little I always wanted to get stuck the other side of Wroxham or Potter bridges. My thinking was that if we got stuck they wouldn't be able to get us off the boat and I could stay longer  x

[kpnut]

7 hours ago, YnysMon said:

Oh no! I was hoping you’d be back on the rivers soon.

Me too. Long story, too much thread drift!

[DAVIDH]

On the subject of dreams about the Broads,I have a recurrent one that I'm on the Yare heading down over Breydon and at the point of the yellow post, the river is virtually dry...just a small stream running down from the Bure where the river should be. Boats are trying to traverse and going aground before the bridges. I'm looking out and trying to work out if the boat will stay afloat in such a narrow stream. Then the dream ends. I've had it about 4 times over the years. Never get further than the post turn. 

[MargeandParge]

1 hour ago, DAVIDH said:

On the subject of dreams about the Broads,I have a recurrent one that I'm on the Yare heading down over Breydon and at the point of the yellow post, the river is virtually dry...just a small stream running down from the Bure where the river should be. Boats are trying to traverse and going aground before the bridges. I'm looking out and trying to work out if the boat will stay afloat in such a narrow stream. Then the dream ends. I've had it about 4 times over the years. Never get further than the post turn. 

Sounds a bit like The Blessed Authorities vision with their attitude to dredging 

Kindest Regards Marge and Parge 

[kpnut]

3 hours ago, DAVIDH said:

On the subject of dreams about the Broads,I have a recurrent one that I'm on the Yare heading down over Breydon and at the point of the yellow post, the river is virtually dry...just a small stream running down from the Bure where the river should be. Boats are trying to traverse and going aground before the bridges. I'm looking out and trying to work out if the boat will stay afloat in such a narrow stream. Then the dream ends. I've had it about 4 times over the years. Never get further than the post turn. 

They always finish before reaching a conclusion!

[PaulN]

On 26/02/2024 at 16:28, dom said:

What exactly did I say which is supposed to be aggressive?

I doubt the owners of Horning Ferry, The New Inn, Martham Boats, Ferry Marina, Richardsons, etc think there are silver linings in much right now. A poor season this year could prove to be a death knell for their businesses - particularly if an incoming Labour government chooses to rob funding or increase corporate taxes to address social issues.

Which part of Norfolk was it that you were born in?

Most things have been. Go take a look at the state of Hoveton around the Three Horseshoes moorings, then tell me why you think coming on here singing Packman's praises is justified from the standpoint of anyone who cares about Broadland.

I agree with what you say about the awful consequences that some businesses may experience with these floods. However I don't understand why I have seen nothing in this debate from Richardson's CEO albeit he is part of the B.A. and on the Navigation Commitee, or have I missed something? Surely as the biggest hire boat operator they have some clout.

[MauriceMynah]

I would suggest that all the boatyards have to tread very carefully.  Whilst they may disagree with BA policy on some subjects, they would not want a face off with the planning authority,  nor to cross swords with the organisation which decides toll rates.

[rightsaidfred]

8 minutes ago, PaulN said:

I agree with what you say about the awful consequences that some businesses may experience with these floods. However I don't understand why I have seen nothing in this debate from Richardson's CEO albeit he is part of the B.A. and on the Navigation Commitee, or have I missed something? Surely as the biggest hire boat operator they have some clout.

They also have two planning applications in.

Fred

[dom]

1 hour ago, PaulN said:

However I don't understand why I have seen nothing in this debate from Richardson's CEO albeit he is part of the B.A. and on the Navigation Commitee, or have I missed something? Surely as the biggest hire boat operator they have some clout.

I suspect if their fleet don't start going under Ludham Bridge more easily in the near future, they may become much more vocal. At the moment, they run the risk of losing bookings, either altogether, or to less affected competing yards if they start complaining that some of their fleet is limited to 10 or so miles of river.

[dom]

I'd not seen this until now:

https://www.theyworkforyou.com/wrans/?id=2024-01-15.9499.h

The thing I'd really like to know is - if dredging to alleviate flooding would cause major saltwater incursion, why was this not a problem in the past? Why can we not simply stick to the dredging regime used historically? Robbie Moore has obviously been briefed, quite possibly by BA, and the answer clearly infers dredging beyond the historic norm. It would be interesting to know if Brandon Lewis has followed up at all.

The other question I have is why BA are apparently so commercially inept as to overlook the financial benefit dredging could yield for them. They're not responsible for the cost of doing it for drainage purposes. They could therefore offer up their services. If they tendered for the work at, or fractionally below the commercial baseline rate, they could get the monkey off their back, generate revenue and possibly even expand their current resources. If I were Dr.P, I'd be making clear we'd done everything necessary to maintain navigation, but are happy to assist with drainage with appropriate finding from EA or elsewhere.

 

[Vaughan]

51 minutes ago, dom said:

https://www.theyworkforyou.com/wrans/?id=2024-01-15.9499.h

 

DAFFODILLS.

This is how the forum swear filter translates the word I actually wanted to use.

[dom]

It's particularly frustrating that it was a direct question "what assessment his Department has made" and the response didn't in any way answer it. It's a perfect example of what's wrong with modern "democracy".

[BroadAmbition]

 if dredging to alleviate flooding would cause major saltwater incursion, why was this not a problem in the past?

It wasn't.  It was never an issue other than exceptional tidal surges that the Broads have been dealing with since the Broads came into being, these rare events were considered normal and were dealt with.   This 'Saltwater Incursion' theory (And it is only a theory cooked up by themselves) is plain and simple an excuse to add to the weight of argument not to dredge and maintain back to levels we enjoyed up to the mid eighties, thereby saving a fortune

Why can we not simply stick to the dredging regime used historically?

Simply put the Blessed authority used their coffers to power base build, increasing office staff from six to over the hundred we see today, plus all the extra departments, vehicles, secretaries, pensions wages etc etc etc the millions spent on the National park lie, the failed vanity projects, the planning department defending court actions, the list is huge, all that has lot to be paid for, the funds have to come from somewhere.  Easy answer - reduce dredging to an absolute minimum, spend less on leased moorings, spend less on maintaining moorings - again - etc etc.

The Blessed Authority are fully aware that they have let the northern Broads get in such a state through lack of river maintenance that if the lower Bure was ever to be dredged back to what it was when they inherited it, then there would be thousands of boats left high and dry around the Northern Broads - Mind you PHB would be back to over 7ft4" at low tide and Wroxham over 8ft, Ludham? Rag n sticks - Happy days.  They have brought this situation on themselves and have only themselves to blame.  In the meantime business / land owners / private housing / farmers / boaters both private and hire and the like bear the fruit of their own priority financial spending plans

I read the EA is responsible for dredging re flood alleviation - Correct

What is also correct is that the Blessed Authority are responsible to maintain navigation.  The two go hand in hand.  IF the Blessed Authority had maintained river depths to what they inherited we of course would have less flooding as the excess rainfall and the like could flow out to sea, at present it is 'Tide Locked' due to a silted and chocked up Lower Bure - The new Herring bridge will not have helped either

I read reports elsewhere that the historically strong ebb on the Lower bure is now a trickle and you can transit upstream against the ebb tide on tickover and still make headway.  That with all the excess rainwater upstream is just not right and it doesn't take a rocket scientist or have computer models to work out why.  I have also read elsewhere that there are more boats going aground in the Lower Bure nowadays than on Breydon.  Draw you own conclusions 

 

Griff

[dom]

8 minutes ago, BroadAmbition said:

I have also read elsewhere that there are more boats going aground in the Lower Bure nowadays than on Breydon.

I'm less than convinced on this, as there seems to be no real evidence being posted anywhere by anyone. The main reason I'm a bit cynical is that people are claiming to have issues with typical Broads cruisers (generally 2'6" or so draft). If this were true, seagoing boats such as a typical Broom (which obviously tend to come through around low water to avoid the bridges) with average draft around 3' would be grounding hard. Sailing yachts, typically 3' 6" wouldn't stand a hope in hell of getting up with a foot less water than needed.

I'm of the opinion that trying to tackle the BA with the dredging issue isn't going to achieve much, other than a short bit of forced dredging - but if it is genuinely happening and people think it's expedient to highlight, someone wants to get a typical yacht (not a blue water model) and to film a passage on a neap low - ideally from shore or another boat if at all possible.

 

[Vaughan]

8 hours ago, dom said:

Sailing yachts, typically 3' 6"

Classic Broads River Cruisers such as Maidie, Ladybird and Raisena - among many others - draw 4' 6" or more.  These are traditional Broads boats built before the war.

The pleasure wherry Solace ran hard aground in the lower Bure on her way to Oulton regatta a couple of years ago.  A trading wherry such as Albion would draw 7ft when loaded and nowadays, I guess she draws around 5 feet.

Sorry, but if a Norfolk wherry can no longer make passage on the main rivers without grounding in the channel, then the BA are not fulfilling their obligation to maintain "The Navigation".

[grendel]

last year I touched bottom and barely made it off again by flooring the throttle and keeping moving, at that point I was rounding a corner some 20 feet away from the bank, just downriver of stokesby, and though it was approaching low water there was still an hour or more before low water at that point, since Water Rail has quite a shallow draught (certainly under 2 foot 6") I rate that as a lack of necessary dredging. how many similar instances have occurred without being reported to the authority. in future I will be reporting it to the BA and encourage others to do so too. and the previous year I had cut a corner a bit tight with the same result, down near the emergency / demasting pontoons (maybe a boat width and a half from the bank).

in the above to suggest that any silt removed would be replaced with salt water is ludicrous considering the amount of fresh water flowing out, in fact with a greater depth the same volume of salt water would incurse less because it would have a greater volume to fill in the lower bure. see my previous comments on incursion, where currently because the water cant escape each tide pushes the salt further into the system. if the water could escape the salt would be pushed back each low tide and then only travel to the previous high tides mark again.

[MauriceMynah]

This might be a stupid question/observation  but has the water level at Yarmouth yacht station changed owing to the rain? (At low water)

I cannot believe it has.