First Wallop Of The Season

[Baitrunner]

I have to agree we shouldn't get into a hire vs private owner discussion on here as I have been both. But...there's always a but, we judge things by our experiences. I have been hit twice - both times by hire boats. So my experience tells me I am more likely to get hit by a hire boat. Others may have different stories.

Secondly, most private owners (not all) have spent a lot of time and money on their boats and treat them as such. There is also a good chance they have more experience of handling their particular boat. Again not always the case, but a fair chance.

Thirdly, we are but a small proportion of the owners and hirers on the Broads - using Iains numbers lets say 12,000 private skippers and lets say 750 hire boats out for 30 weeks a yr = 22,500 hire skippers. Total over 34,000 skippers out there. We are but 80-100 active members on the forum and we are the ones who actually give a sxxt. Even if a very small proportion of the remaining skippers - say 10% - are total nutters, that's 3,400 idiots out there. Some of these will hit bridges, some run aground on Breydon, others will hit my (or your) boat.

Fourth point, I dont know any private owners who go out with a "don't care, not my boat" attitude. I have met quite a few hirers like that. These are no different in a hotel room, caravan, hire car etc - unless it's their deposit they might lose.

I dont know what the answer is other than making skippers do a test - could be a simple boat handling course - no test, no hire or Broads toll (to keep the privates in hand so to speak). It is the only way to reduce the idiots along with making them more liable for damage they cause. It's simple logic that humans understand - cash. Also, make people more aware if they hit another boat to exchange details. The boat last year drove off, but fortunately came back to exchange details (we had his number anyway). I have to say most hire boat yards do seem to be well on top of sorting any damage out which is a credit to them.

It may cause issues for the hire yards though so I am not advocating this and I respect they have a business to run. Who knows what the real answer is though and as has been said this topic will do the rounds each year.

And I think it was TImbo who mentioned the briefing session you get on a track day. That's more of a safety briefing and without a licence to drive you don't even get that far! So maybe the licence is the way forward?

The best boat hand-over by far that I have had was last year in Grenada before picking up a 42ft Cat - the 1 hr briefing was good, but made all the better with a few beers provided by the hire company - before we loaded up and they sent us out to sea!!

I hope this doesn't offend anyone and I am happy to say there are some damn good and jolly nice hirers and private owners around (most on this forum) which is why I like it.

[BuffaloBill]

1 hour ago, Baitrunner said:

"unless it's their deposit they might lose."

"I dont know what the answer is"

You gave it right there! Money talks, so if there's a chance that they will lose their deposited 'Damage waiver', they'd take a lot more care of their boat and be careful of damaging others!

[Poppy]

2 hours ago, webntweb said:

Moored stern on at the New Inn, Horning a couple of years ago on the first mooring downstream of the dinghy dyke. Stood at the interior helm with my head and shoulders above roof level, watching the crews of half a dozen yachts next to us getting ready to depart. The two boats next to us untied and started to raise their sails while still at the mooring. The sail on the one next to us was part way up when the big lump of wood at the bottom of the sail (boom?) swung toward me; I ducked and it continued across the top of our boat. It was a good job I was watching them otherwise I would have had a tremendous headache (at least!). Utter panic by the yacht's crew as they pushed off us (much bumping). No time for an apology I suppose, they didn't even look back.

Roy

 

Indeed that is what it's called Roy, as you would have found out from the noise it made - had it cracked you across the scull  

[dnks34]

I do agree with the return of a cash deposit to which damages can be deducted rather than a simple walk away waiver, that really would adjust certain folks mindsets.

The thing that worries me is not so much being hit but being hit when I'm not on my boat, potentially leaving me with X amounts of thousands of damage and the culprit responsible taking the if I don't look it can't have been me approach and bug*ering off. 

Is it an offence to not report and admit a collision?

If not it should be!  

I deal with this by leaving a dash cam recording almost every time I leave the boat (depending on where I'm moored) and hopefully if anything happens in my absence I will record something of it!!

 

[Broadsword]

'Do a test' - well, of course some of us have...

The people I have sailed with on summer camps are usually RYA 3 Keelboat qualified - at the least. I am myself - some are much more highly qualified. [That doesn't mean you are fool-proof of course as I demonstrated about 8 years ago when I turned a Hunter's half-decker over in a squall. Thankfully no-one was hurt and nothing was damaged, except my pride.]  It means though that someone professional has deemed me competent to be the helm of a sailing yacht on inland or sheltered waters (e.g. the Broads) but does not cover coastal navigation or anything of that kind. What it does mean is that we really do know quite a bit about boat handling. The reason for this is that we take charge of young people and would not be able to get insurance without some certification of competence.

Several of us are also qualified with a power boat ticket so that we can man a safety and rescue boat (I don't have this). What many of us do have is years of experience of handling motor cruisers and launches in all kinds of conditions.

Those with substantial coastal and offshore experience can still find the Broads an unusual and tricky place to sail. They are not used to the close quarters and frequent tacks and changes of direction. So the qualifications don't necessarily help.

I guess my concern is; what sort of test would it have to be to really demonstrate competence?  Usually, to get the RYA 3 you have to go through 1 and 2 on the way... several days of training and ongoing experience at the very least, even if you do it via a course; quite a bit of expense (the courses aren't free) and then for my RYA 3 (I jumped straight there as I could demonstrate ability and experience) a three day course covering a wide range of issues and a one hour sailing test at the helm, including leaving and arriving at moorings (under sail), man-overboard drill, use of all sails and lots more beside.

Just saying...

[Baitrunner]

Danny,

   Your right in that just because we have qualifications or indeed experience we are not foolproof as I proved a few weeks ago with my first bit of reversing on a new to me hire boat and made a pigs ear of it. No damage though and I didn't bugger off. I am sure after the guys got fishing again they had a laugh at me.  

My thought was anything is better than nothing and may at least help with boating principles and rope work. We all see people who cant parallel park or even get straight on in a car park so what chance on a boat!!

To me it at least shows a commitment to wanting to do the right thing. Of course on a boat with 4 or 6 potential "skippers" you only need 1 who knows what to do and 5 who don't listen because they know it all!!! We cant cover all eventualities. But then the lead hirer is still liable. I know my name will not be going down as lead hirer if I ever went with some people I know. They aren't bad people, just don't have the respect for other peoples property that some of us do.

And on a final note - what are you doing in my village? Just seen your location.

[Vaughan]

This subject is very important, and brings me back a lot of memories.

I gave my first "solo" trial run to customers - on an auxiliary yacht - when I was aged 12. Since then I have long lost count of how many I have given, on how many waterways, or countries of the World. I can fairly count over 45 years in the business. What have I learned from it?

1/. The "trial run" is by far the most important part of a hire boatyard's operation.

2/. The whole thing is useless if the hirer doesn't want to listen.

3/. It is a personal one-on-one experience between the instructor and his customer, which cannot come from a book, film or "download". before-hand.

4/. Each instructor must be trained, but he must be left to tell his own story in his own way - you can't just read it off a check list.

By the way, when I say "he" that is not sexist - just a figure of speech.

When training staff I take them on a boat and give them a trial run, to explain the way I do it, and yes, the basic run takes 45 minutes, with all the "gadjets" on board which must be explained. This does not account for all the questions, the distractions caused by the children (who ideally should be bound and gagged in the front cabin during this time) or the number of times you have to go round again before he gets it right. So an actual run will easily take more than an hour, and maybe even two. I have never ever criticised a member of staff for taking too long on a run. It takes as long as it takes.

Why is it so important? Because the customers will enjoy their holiday to the full if they are familiar with the boat and happy to handle it. The boatyard will also be happy as the boats come back un-damaged (less maintainance cost) and the hirers don't call out mechanics for silly reasons. Also, of course, if they enjoy their holiday, they come back again!

In Crown Blue Line, when it was still a private company, we were running 450 hire boats from 16 bases, and for several years less than 2 percent of customers had reason to call the base for service during their cruise. Less than one percent had cause to complain and over 35 percent were repeat customers. Those are the target figures (to be proud of) but you have to strive for them and the key to it is personal service. If you put your mind to it, this can be done with a fleet of 400 boats as easily as it can with 10.

In France all skippers have to have a driving permit on inland waterways and every hire boat goes out with a "permis de plaisance" which can be shown by the hirer if the boat is inspected, and shows that he has been trained by the yard to a competent standard. We, the boatyards, are licenced and qualified to provide this customer training. On UK waterways this has never been considered necessary but in my experience a permit system is easy to operate and is probably an advantage.

By the way, in all my time I am certain that I have never given the same trial run twice - each one depends on the customer - and I am also sure I have never given one without forgetting to tell them something or another. Usually, how to stop the engine!

In France, with worldwide marketing we also had the problem of languages. I have given a few runs in Chinese. Not difficult actually : you just have to smile an awful lot!

 

 

[JennyMorgan]

Someone suggested that us 'sailies' leave our mooring under jib only. No way, firstly I have full control whilst under full sail. secondly whilst a 'sailie' is hoisting his mainsail out in mid stream the helmsman is considerably hampered, not a good idea, in my own opinion.

[Broadsword]

59 minutes ago, Baitrunner said:

To me it at least shows a commitment to wanting to do the right thing

I couldn't agree more

[NeilB]

I've not done anywhere near the amount of trial runs Vaughan has, whatever 10 years worth adds up to. 

We did have a checklist which covered the main subjects, we didn't read from it as such and mainly used it ensure we remembered everything.  Every boat and customer is different so it was useful in this way.  Towards the end of my time we were discussing being qualified to NYA Inland Helmsman Instructor level and I believe this did happen.  We always tried to impress on them to slow down, take their time and never sent anyone out unless we were confident with their abilities.

I don't recall we had many incidents, most were genuine accidents with the occasional idiot thrown in.  Sometimes the idiots can be difficult to identify until it's too late.

We also had lots of overseas visitors but I can only recall one German couple being unable to speak a word of English.  Lots of finger pointing, couple of drawings with the diagrams in the handbook and off we went.  After they carried out a few manoeuvres safely without any assistance it was obvious they were experienced and off they went.

As for children we often offered to "test" their buoyancy aids if they misbehaved ! 

Being close to London we had a fair amount of Stag and Hen parties but I cannot recall many issues.  They were all given a polite but firm warning from the owner prior to the trial run and we used to flip a coin to see who did the trial run on boats with Hen parties

[Polly]

I have a lovely neighbour, careful and considerate. He apparently had a Broads hire a while back, he will not repeat the experience because he couldn't moor it. Now he is a practical and intelligent guy, did he get a good briefing? I bet he didn't, and he won't be back; which is a pity because skippers like he could have been are surely more desirable than more casual ones.

Vaughan, you have experience in spades, and clearly did the job properly; my suggestion was that theory of mooring and a safety briefing should/could take place separately, the trial run can then build on this.

Some won't and some can't pay attention, fair dos but stress blocks learning big time, so some off-boat makes sense to me.

We hired lots, and were always aware that the boat was a pricey bit of kit, I think boatyards could save money by better tailoring their briefings, fewer interesting happenings...more respect for a boat with a message going out  that the yard has invested time to underline how to approach the experience.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Vaughan said:

.............The whole thing is useless if the hirer doesn't want to listen.................

A very good post Vaughan. Chapter and verse, straight from the horse's mouth.

I've quoted you on just that short sentence, because I believe it to be the core of the problem these days.

The overwhelming  majority of hirers are decent people, with respect for the hire company's property and other craft on the river.

That's patently obvious, or all the remaining hire fleets would have gone bust years ago.

However, the very small percentage of hirers who "don't want to listen" are emboldened by the universal damage waiver to not care anything about anyone else, as long as they can have a good p**s up and crash around for their week or fortnight.

They degrade everyone else's holiday, mostly other hirers, who will therefore quite possibly never return again....

[BrundallNavy]

We were moored at Ranworth over the weekend and a Broadsman decided to come and moor next to us, we are on the side moorings about 3 boats from the pub end and with the wind blowing hard room was tight. Not one member of the crew came out on deck to watch the stern and I had to fend him off twice as he reversed directly into my boat. This boat has thrusters so should have been an easy manoeuvre just get a couple of people to watch the corners as you cannot see the stern from the cockpit with the roof up.

Doug.

[BroadScot]

22 minutes ago, brundallNavy said:

Not one member of the crew came out on deck to watch the stern and I had to fend him off twice as he reversed directly into my boat. This boat has thrusters so should have been an easy manoeuvre just get a couple of people to watch the corners as you cannot see the stern from the cockpit with the roof up.

I moored up in that very space last year on Broadway2  on a very windy day in early May. My wife n sister were out at the stern just in case I kissed the posh private boat. But, with bow and stern thrusters, it was a much easier manouver than without the toys! With both thrusters you can move sideways without having to use any ropes.

Iain

 

[BroadAmbition]

The best handover I ever received was at Eastwood Whelptons yard.  Me and a mate hired 'Spinnaker' (I think it was Spinnaker).   It was the first time I had skippered a proper rag-n-stick, other than dinghy's  it was in my earlier days before I got stuck into the RYA thing and learnt properly from the professionals (RN)  E.W did the standard handover thing which was good, there was an optional hour of further instruction at a cost,which I turned down flat UNLESS I could have two hours? which I gladly paid for - Best two hours under instruction on the Broads I've ever had.  As a result our week was properly enjoyed, yes we hit snags, did quite a bit of 'Learn by do method' and 'We won't try that again' but we only embarrassed ourselves and no other craft.

Nowadays when we hire from H.W's it's pretty pointless having a trial run, they know it, we know it and it suits all concerned.  I also have a sneaky suspicion that they berth the two Jewels up in a section that is mighty tight/awkward to get our of just to see if we can without hitting owt!  so far we are 100% including our two other skippers too

The handover I got last year in Corfu prior to sailing round the Greek islands on a sea going rag-n-stick - was very thorough with the boat systems and took them a full hour.  Then came the 'Trial Run' - which the owner abandoned before we had even started it saying - 'I get a feel for new customers during the boat system walk through,  it will be wasted on you and  if you don't know how to sail / navigate / manage her then you shouldn't be here and your qualifications are fake. Besides which a boat owner in this mariner knows you and has vouched for you, there's the mariner exit, see you in a fortnight'!

There was no argument from me and off we went - I still had to do a bit of 'Learn by do method' all the same during that fortnight. (One of the best holidays I have ever had I will gladly admit)

Back on Topic - Security deposit imho may work but it also may just make the holiday cost of hiring too expensive and out of reach of some, could be negated by putting it on a credit card I suppose, if they have one (I don't posses such an item)

I have over the years since we have had  'B.A' to look after on the rivers, have come to the inevitable conclusion that she has her own cloaking device and that we are going to get walloped now and again, as others have said it's a playground out there with a lot of newbies having a go, we were newbies and we had to have a go too once.  In our case it will always be a Richo's bathtub (Well it has been on past record) - This is a good thing as it makes me wary of them and keeps me ready to spring into action !  Cosmetic damage I usually deal with it mysen, but what really gets my back up is when the offending skipper looks the other way, sails off and refuses to acknowledge what he/she has done - there is no viable excuse I can think of for this kind of behaviour.  My biggest concern is 'B.A' suffering 'proper' damage when we are out somewhere and not onboard, that dash cam idea may have to be added onto our 'Wish List'

Whatever -  give and take and especially helping other skippers when they are struggling goes a long way.  No matter how experienced everyone needs a hand now and again, I did earlier this month trying to get alongside Potter Heigham with the wind blowing me off the bank (I was solo crewing), a chap from a hireboat helped me get alongside and I was ever so grateful.

Finally - Do you know the definition of a good Skipper?  No?   -  I do:-

A good Skipper, is a skipper that never has to prove how good he/she is

Griff

 

[Arthur]

Totally agree with you about the handover at Eastwood Whelpton Griff.

Only hired from them a couple of times but I will defintely go with them again if I ever get back to the Broads.

Very comprehensive handover with everything explained very clearly and happy to answer  any questions.

I was reasonably confident in being able to sail the yacht even though I was single handed.  However I was not quite sure how the A Frame arrangement that the boat had for raising and lowering the mast worked.

They took the time to go through the procedure with me which I very much appreciated.

I think the yacht you hired Giff may have been Spindrift.

 

Arthur

 

 

 

 

 

[BroadAmbition]

I think the yacht you hired Griff may have been Spindrift.

Yep that was the one, tks Arthur

Griff

[LizG]

A few years back, 'the family' decided to book a day boat for a family celebration from a well known Wroxham yard. I took on the role of skipper acting 100% ignorance. We were told this is forward/ this is reverse and that basically was that. Ok only a day launch but they can cause damage as well. 

[Baitrunner]

So do we blame the yards or the hirers?

would you put your kids in the back of a car knowing the driver had never driven before with little or no instruction? Why do people do it on water?

maybe it is just me, but before I first hired I did so much research it was ridiculous. But it gave me an understanding of the basics and the rest was down to a bit of instruction and experience. 

I still maintain the other 20,000 odd "skippers" don't come prepared and think it's easier than driving a car as you only do 6mph. 

Just my opinion but let's not keep blaming others for some peoples stupidity. If they don't know how to drive a boat they should damn well say so. 

Grrrr why is it always someone else's fault.