What Do We Want At Acle Bridge?

[Bound2Please]

Having been in seasonal businesses, since 1987, and quite successful. A sustainable business needs to make a years takings in half a year maximum. I have has seasonal pubs (East Mersea) seasonal shops (Clacton on Sea) You dont need nothing like 3/4 million to make a small shop/coffee shop/tea room successful and profitalbe at Acle Bridge. That type of business would be a success profitable and also a focal point. I am semi retired and can see the benefits of such a business there, no teachers or class rooms in sight.

Much more to the point no change of use permissions needed to implement, planning should be a breeze as its updating what is there historically, and more to the point still standing, although being allowed to become derelict like the toilet block behind.

[ChrisB]

I think the toilets were closed as part of The Great WC closure programme by Great Yarmouth Council a few years ago. It included quite a few others, Thurne comes to mind but a number were taken on by the relevant Parishes. 

[marshman]

I think too many people take "education" as being too literal. Who said anything about children? Who said anything about watersports?

However what is required somewhere is a centre to explain to anyone who may wish to know, about the Broads as a whole. Not about boating necessarily but just explaining to visitors to Norfolk and many residents too, just what else is here apart from nice countryside, beaches and indeed what they came for. You all know that information centres have a more specific function.

Its a very sad fact that few children in Norfolk as a whole even know they exist, let alone those outside this particular area and that applies to grown ups too. The BA's role is not just about those who come to the Broads nor is it limited to meeting  particular navigation needs but it has a role for everyone else too, and thats much much broader.

Acle is by no means the worst place to have such a Centre but the BA has to make the most of its assets or it would blow all its budget on buying the land alone. 

Lets all wait for more information before we all go off and join the Crusades! Fortunately there are some who can see a wider benefit - lets hope they are not drowned out again and are allowed to express their opinion.

[vanessan]

35 minutes ago, marshman said:

Who said anything about watersports?

 

You did, I don’t recall the term watersports being used before. If however you are referring to the use of canoes, kayaks etc etc, I believe they are the ideal way to get folk away from the busy rivers and enjoying the true peace and tranquility of the Broads with wildlife, flora and fauna aplenty. If the idea is to educate, on the water has to be better than by the water. Both would be ideal.

Just what is wrong with members freely expressing their opinions? As far as I can see there are many different views on both this competition and what we would like to see at Acle. That was the idea of the topic I believe.

[ranworthbreeze]

Hello Marshman,

Everyone is allowed to have their own opinion, personally mine is that at Acle it is a none starter, the Broads Authority would be better to develop their information centre at Wroxham, or build a new centre at say Beccles, Norwich or even Yarmouth, if its it their intent to have some form of education centre.

Regards

Alan

[Minifer]

1 hour ago, marshman said:

I think too many people take "education" as being too literal. Who said anything about children? Who said anything about watersports? 

 

 

That was me, because it is part of the design brief (although I was not meaning to include watersports): 

"2. An education space for school groups of about 40 students, combined with a cafe space of
approximately 45-50 covers inside and a further
30-35 sheltered outside. The cafe will be open all
year but its reduced use off-season will allow a large
part of the space to be used for education purposes
– however both uses need to co-exist. Internal space
for a workstation (for Rangers and other Authority
staff to drop in) is also required."

[grendel]

2 hours ago, marshman said:

Who said anything about children?

Its in the opening paragraph of the competition brief

Quote

The Broads Authority’s ambition is to commission and build an outstanding visitor centre for its site at Acle Bridge. A landmark building is essential for this sensitive site to create a new visitor attraction for the National Park and raise the profile of the area’s special qualities. It will engage the public in the big issues: the importance of managing water, climate change and sea level rise, the need for sustainability to be at the heart of building in the Broads and the provision of fantastic facilities for visitors, local residents and schoolchildren.

and under the key components section

Quote

2. An education space for school groups of about 40 students, combined with a cafe space of approximately 45-50 covers inside and a further 30-35 sheltered outside. The cafe will be open all year but its reduced use off-season will allow a large part of the space to be used for education purposes – however both uses need to co-exist. Internal space for a workstation (for Rangers and other Authority staff to drop in) is also required.

you are correct though that watersports are not mentioned.

[grendel]

the very shape of the available plot does not lend itself to an extensive building, comprising of two narrow legs at right angles to each other, the area where the existing toilet block is about the best, but that leaves nowhere to park the coaches they expect to bring the children. in fact checking on the land registry there is an error in the plan shown, in as much as there is a strip of unregistered land extending across the access road to the full width of the access road behind the existing shop leaving just a couple of metre wide strip joining the BA land between the road and the council land, unlike the plan shown below where that unregistered land appears to have been claimed by the BA

[Guest]

2 hours ago, marshman said:

I think too many people take "education" as being too literal. Who said anything about children? Who said anything about watersports?

However what is required somewhere is a centre to explain to anyone who may wish to know, about the Broads as a whole. Not about boating necessarily but just explaining to visitors to Norfolk and many residents too, just what else is here apart from nice countryside, beaches and indeed what they came for. You all know that information centres have a more specific function.

Its a very sad fact that few children in Norfolk as a whole even know they exist, let alone those outside this particular area and that applies to grown ups too. The BA's role is not just about those who come to the Broads nor is it limited to meeting  particular navigation needs but it has a role for everyone else too, and thats much much broader.

Acle is by no means the worst place to have such a Centre but the BA has to make the most of its assets or it would blow all its budget on buying the land alone. 

Lets all wait for more information before we all go off and join the Crusades! Fortunately there are some who can see a wider benefit - lets hope they are not drowned out again and are allowed to express their opinion.

I might have been the one that suggested that "water sports" might be an additional activity at the proposed site, as for school children I quote from the BA brief:

In recent engagement with 623 pupils in 12 primary schools only two of the students knew that a Broad is a lake or is in anyway associated with water. The Authority’s vision is that the Broads will be a source of enjoyment, learning and personal development for every child in Norfolk and Suffolk during their school career. The creation of an iconic visitor and education centre will help deliver this. 

 

 

[JennyMorgan]

15 minutes ago, Philosophical said:

I might have been the one that suggested that "water sports" might be an additional activity at the proposed site, as for school children I quote from the BA brief:

In recent engagement with 623 pupils in 12 primary schools only two of the students knew that a Broad is a lake or is in anyway associated with water. The Authority’s vision is that the Broads will be a source of enjoyment, learning and personal development for every child in Norfolk and Suffolk during their school career. The creation of an iconic visitor and education centre will help deliver this. 

In recent engagement with 623 pupils in 12 primary schools only two of the students knew that a Broad is a lake or is in anyway associated with water.

That statement actually made my blood boil. Indeed how many of us Broadlanders know that the Broads are lakes, indeed until recently I didn't and I'm far from ashamed to admit it. The Broads are Broads, not sodding lakes, grrrrrrr. Why this determination by Packman to remove the identity of the Broads by calling them lakes or indeed a national park?

I have read an opinion elsewhere as to why JP wants an education centre, that being that he can then set the agenda and the syllabus, that he would be in control. I'm not convinced that that opinion is that far removed from reality.

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, JennyMorgan said:

In recent engagement with 623 pupils in 12 primary schools only two of the students knew that a Broad is a lake or is in anyway associated with water.

That statement actually made my blood boil. Indeed how many of us Broadlanders know that the Broads are lakes, indeed until recently I didn't and I'm far from ashamed to admit it. The Broads are Broads, not sodding lakes, grrrrrrr. Why this determination by Packman to remove the identity of the Broads by calling them lakes or indeed a national park?

I have read an opinion elsewhere as to why JP wants an education centre, that being that he can then set the agenda and the syllabus, that he would be in control. I'm not convinced that that opinion is that far removed from reality.

They didn't say where the primary schools were: they could have been in the foothills of the Himalayas.

Also Google "Broad" it takes a lot of digging to find the reference to Norfolk water.

[grendel]

'Broads' is probably a blocked search on most schools internet access.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, grendel said:

'Broads' is probably a blocked search on most schools internet access.

Broads with an "S" maybe but Broad?

[Ray]

In general terms society largely encourages education and oppurtunity for children and young people. You'd be hard pressed to find anyone who doesn't support that principle.

So rather than a Machiavellian plot this could just be a well meaning attempt to further that aim by a "body" that feels it can or should have some role to play in fullfilling that societal brief.

Whether or not it turns out to be the right building or the right place remains to be seen. Even those of us who don't like the specific plan could support the ideal and this goes to the accusation of BA bashing because on a case by case basis we can support some projects and not others without declaring undying hatred or support of the organisation.

Personally I don't particularly like this idea in this place, maybe I would support it in another place.. the devil is in the detail and we have precious little of that. Which I guess is why the op asked what we would like to see.

[BroadAmbition]

I am of the understanding that a Lake is a landlocked body of water.

A Broad is also a body of water but is not landlocked and is tidal.  To me where the confusion lies is that some Broads are indeed landlocked and non tidal, these imho should not be called Broads but Lakes

Griff

[ChrisB]

I was told that Broad simply means that. A lake having an unusual size, side to side when compared to it's depth. From Middle English "Brad" of Germanic Dutch origin and that the word "Mere" also has the same origins but is used extensively in a number of European languages noteably English, Dutch and German. A lake should definately be landlocked, like the lakes, meres, Tarns and waters of say, The Lake District. So if they are tidal and open to the sea.. Are they a Lagoon?

I recon it was the way the "Good ol Boys" described a "Wide Bit" nothing more.

[JohnK]

Every definition I can find says Broads are lakes.

[Ray]

Does it matter that much if children know exactly what a Broad is compared to other bodies of water? If any child leaves school with the ability to swim and a respect for wildlife then everything else will follow from their ongoing life experience. If they are Norfolk/Suffolk born they will inevitably encounter 'The Broads' in the wider sense sooner or later, if they are interested they will make a point of finding out more, if not they will leave them alone... either way they will be safe and respectful.

I bet a fair few of us knew nothing about this wonderful place until we were adults and just about the one thing we all agree on is that we love it here. 

[marshman]

I believe the schools were in the Lowestoft area, the point being that even local children do not know the Broads exist!!!

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, marshman said:

I believe the schools were in the Lowestoft area, the point being that even local children do not know the Broads exist!!!

I think they all know that there are plenty of rivers and large expanses of water in Norfolk and Suffolk and that very close to Lowestoft there is a place called Oulton Broad, I suspect that what they didn't know is that "Broad" is a word in Norfolk & Suffolk used to describe such places.

[Smoggy]

13 minutes ago, Philosophical said:

I suspect that what they didn't know is that "Broad" is a word in Norfolk & Suffolk used to describe such places. 

And "broad" sounds so much better than " water filled derelict industrial workings" which doesn't make it sound nearly so tempting to play on.

[vanessan]

This might be a good time to mention a publication that explains so much - ‘Norfolk Broads - the Biography’ by Pete Goodrum. Well worth a read. It says in an 1830 ‘Vocabulary of East Anglia’ a definition for Broad is “a lake formed by the expansion of a river in a flat country; as Braydon Broad between Norwich and Yarmouth”. The book reads chronologically and reminds us that the Romans first started the peat diggings. 

I know this book has been mentioned before, for anybody interested in the deeper history of the Broads, it’s a must have.

[Minifer]

We probably need a new definition now because in my not that long lifetime opinions have changed on their formation and timeline.  Am I right in thinking the current view is they were all formed in about 300 years in the medieval period as small peat diggings allowed to flood consecutively?   I've seen a 1950's aerial photo of Barton Broad that shows the how the pits were dug in sections as the water was low enough to see the ridge lines clearly.  So my definition today is Norfolk and Suffolk flooded medieval dug peat pits that are shallow lakes, some of which are now connected to rivers. 

I do think it is good to educate, I'm not that surprised that primary school kids don't know the exact definition - pretty sure landforms are a secondary school thing, so it therefore down to whether the parents have explained it.

[vanessan]

Minifer - see my post above!

[Timbo]

I must have written and deleted several posts for this thread. You see, I'm coming from a unique standpoint. As a specialist in landscape protection, preservation and conservation I've worked on and off for over twenty years with, on and over various UN lead operations around the globe with some of the world's most precious landscapes, cultures and habitat. I've worked with, for and guided National Park Authorities from Israel to Portugal and the UK. As an educator and specialist, I'm lucky to have experience both in the field, desert and warzone, in the classroom and lecture theatre as well as the dark and dingy corridors of the top universities, various national governments, corporate headquarters, the UN and even the occasional cartel bling palace (and those were 'brown trouser' negotiations).

Given my past career, at last years Symposium on European Wetlands and Delta, my colleagues found it amusing that I was often cast as a 'BA Basher' because of my views on the schemes and direction of the current BA administration. They were incredulous that an organisation such as ours at the NBN, that contains such a wealth of expertise across so many subjects, were bickering amongst themselves instead of proferring guidance to the Broads Authority. 

Could we all just take a big step back and think about something for a minute? Here are a few facts and figures. At this time of year, the NBN get's over 40,000 unique (that's different individual people) views of our forums per month.

Looking further at those figures those forum views are predominantly on posts discussing help in planning a holiday, where to visit, buying and maintaining a boat, the heritage of The Norfolk Broads and...what Robin is up to this week 

Our members include businessmen and women, teachers, lawyers, policemen, firemen, publicans, judges, professors, housewives, boatbuilders, Royal Navy Personnel, soldiers, airmen, ecologists, doctors, nurses, tradesmen, scientists, historians, amateurs, professionals, the occasional idiot and, yes folks, yes we do have an actual rocket scientist.

We have boaters, walkers, cyclists, anglers, campers, caravanners, sailors, canoeists, artists, bird watchers, the other bird watchers, conservationists, drinkers, non-drinkers, food buffs, perfume critics, bloggers, vloggers, woodworkers and just about any other activity or craft that is carried on in Broadland.

We have people who come to the Broads for day visits, weekends, a week, two weeks, a month and some that actually LIVE HERE!

Our views on the future of Broadland are just as diverse. Some are for, some are against, some are neutral, some agree, some disagree some are thinking 'suck it and see', but there is one thing that we ALL HAVE IN COMMON. We all love The Norfolk Broads.

Now then, one of the main purposes of any forum is the debate. Through debate, all can air their views and all of our members must respect the views of others. You don't have to agree with them.

BUT: If any of us hope to save, conserve, preserve and protect the Broadland that we love, at some point, we are going to have to work together and see past our own personal interests and work towards a Broadland for all! Not just the NBN, I mean everyone, including and especially the BA. But someone has to set an example and as one of the largest Broadland Interest Groups out there (we have way more members than the Broads Society or any other interest group and our membership figures only include 'active members') with such a wealth of talent, skill and knowledge to call on...it really should be us. Starting with...me I suppose. So...

...now to nip back onto topic...
Experience with similar proposed projects in two NP's in the UK, tells me that the proposal for an education centre is a little misguided with regard to both financial aspects of the project and the educational aspects.
They have not included a budget for the decommissioning of the site in five to seven years (the average lifespan of these projects).

The project is not cost effective. A greater educational value would be achieved in spending the money on teaching staff and take the learning to the student in the already established purpose built classrooms of the counties. Experience of the landscape is already adequately provided for in other locations.

As Minifer has just this second brilliantly pointed out...on the matter of education it's time we set the record straight, all of us from all sides of the argument. What a brilliant post Minifer!