A Bargain?

[rightsaidfred]

Vaughan, the world we grew up in has changed, sometimes for the better sometimes the worse, I wouldn't try and impose the standards we grew up with now, what I will say having worked a large part of my life doing unsocial hours and having a family life of ships passing in the night is I can fully understand why people with young families want a better life/work balance, you only get one go at bringing up and spending time with your children.

Fred

[YnysMon]

When I was young hardly anything was open on a Sunday. Yes, I did grow up in Anglesey, which was probably the last county to allow pubs to open on a Sunday. Although we have restricted opening hours for shops etc. on Sundays nowadays, I feel that commercialism has gone too far. It's fine for those who have weekends off to have the choice to go shopping or whatever on a Sunday, but what about those who have to work every weekend? There are some families who hardly ever have time to get together and do family things. 

[Vaughan]

1 hour ago, rightsaidfred said:

you only get one go at bringing up and spending time with your children.

Unless you bring them up in the business, just as my parents raised me, on a boatyard.  Offhand, I couldn't name all the family businesses on the Broads who go back for generations but think of a few : Landamores, Moores, Simpsons, the Thwaites of Barnes Brinkcraft, Len Funnell and his family - the list is a long one.  Even the Richardsons (and I mean two Broads families, not just one!).  I believe Jeckells are already in their 4th generation.

And that's not just the boatyard owners.  There are many families on the Broads who have been working in the yards for decades.  We have a member on this forum whose grandfather was probably the most famous foreman boatbuilder and designer of all of them.  You know who you are, sir.

We are talking about a business tradition and a working life that has maintained this wonderful area of holiday pleasure, for literally hundreds of years.

I appreciate, Fred, that times have changed and that motivations, in life, are not what they were.  Let us just hope that a better life/work balance and the "human rights" that go with it; will be able also to maintain the tourism and the local businesses, upon which this lovely and unique place that we all love, so vitally depends.

I very much fear that we are going to find that out, sooner rather than later.

[rightsaidfred]

1 hour ago, Vaughan said:

Unless you bring them up in the business, just as my parents raised me, on a boatyard.  Offhand, I couldn't name all the family businesses on the Broads who go back for generations but think of a few : Landamores, Moores, Simpsons, the Thwaites of Barnes Brinkcraft, Len Funnell and his family - the list is a long one.  Even the Richardsons (and I mean two Broads families, not just one!).  I believe Jeckells are already in their 4th generation.

And that's not just the boatyard owners.  There are many families on the Broads who have been working in the yards for decades.  We have a member on this forum whose grandfather was probably the most famous foreman boatbuilder and designer of all of them.  You know who you are, sir.

We are talking about a business tradition and a working life that has maintained this wonderful area of holiday pleasure, for literally hundreds of years.

I appreciate, Fred, that times have changed and that motivations, in life, are not what they were.  Let us just hope that a better life/work balance and the "human rights" that go with it; will be able also to maintain the tourism and the local businesses, upon which this lovely and unique place that we all love, so vitally depends.

I very much fear that we are going to find that out, sooner rather than later.

Yes but how many family businesses have survived, in any industry the large majority are employees its only the few who are fortunate enough to be part of a family owned business.

Fred

[C.Ricko]

Vaughn,

Agreed but half the names you mention there don’t do weekends and at least a couple of them have decided the next generation isn’t going to continue.. 

Do Moores operate? 
 

obviously we rely on people in the pubs and shops etc  to work weekends but in the same way you say find something else to do that is exactly why I would not choose to be a publican, but to say not to have a hire fleet if you don’t want to work weekends is surely increasing numbers of yards not operating fleets.. surely a yard who finds a happy medium where staff, customers and owners are happy should be regarded as a great model? 

[Mouldy]

4 hours ago, YnysMon said:

When I was young hardly anything was open on a Sunday. Yes, I did grow up in Anglesey, which was probably the last county to allow pubs to open on a Sunday. Although we have restricted opening hours for shops etc. on Sundays nowadays, I feel that commercialism has gone too far. It's fine for those who have weekends off to have the choice to go shopping or whatever on a Sunday, but what about those who have to work every weekend? There are some families who hardly ever have time to get together and do family things. 

Agreed.  Personally, I see no need for Sunday trading.  Supermarkets open early and close late all ruddy week.  I do not believe that folk can’t do their shopping from Monday to Saturday and leave Sundays free for families.  I can see an excuse for DIY centres, garden centres and one or two other shops to trade on Sundays, but it seems that these days a family day out with the kids is a trip to the shopping mall.  Little wonder so many families split up.

Why can we not be like our European neighbours and minimise Sunday trading, instead of wanting to be like the Americans and shop 24/7.

[Ray]

In a multicultural society there are days of importance other than Sundays for some people. Many years ago when I briefly worked for the railways, there were always people happy to cover someone's "special" day in exchange for their own celebration day off duty.

It really does depend on the industry and the workforce.

I do 100% support the right of workers not to have to compulsorily work "off days" something which has become widespread lately and ironically is widespread in the railway industry. Instead of hiring enough drivers the timetable can only work with rest day working - which is why a work to rule is so effective!

Basically nothing is ever as straightforward as it seems.

 

EDIT - also of course not all workers have families.!

[addicted]

We moor at Ferry Marine and at weekends we see the maintenance staff turn up for work on the dot of 9.00am. they mostly comprise teenagers. They're laughing and joking and seem very happy to  be at work. They are a breath of fresh air and a joy to watch. Always ready to share a laugh and a joke with us and each other.

 

 

Carole

[Mouldy]

4 minutes ago, Ray said:

In a multicultural society there are days of importance other than Sundays for some people. Many years ago when I briefly worked for the railways, there were always people happy to cover someone's "special" day in exchange for their own celebration day off duty.

It really does depend on the industry and the workforce.

I do 100% support the right of workers not to have to compulsorily work "off days" something which has become widespread lately and ironically is widespread in the railway industry. Instead of hiring enough drivers the timetable can only work with rest day working - which is why a work to rule is so effective!

Basically nothing is ever as straightforward as it seems.

 

EDIT - also of course not all workers have families.!

The trouble is Ray, Sundays have been incorporated into a normal working week for so many people now, that couples seldom get to spend time together, or with their families.  Working in the logistics industry, I’ve worked nights for 14 years, weekends, stupid hours, twelve hour shifts, four on, four off shift patterns, started work at 02:00 in the morning etc.  Fifteen hour days were frequently worked, not from choice, but necessity.

I’ll never forget having a row with my son when he was about 18 or 19.  I can’t remember what started it, but he said to me ‘You’ve never been here for me.’  It was true.  I’d worked weekends, long, antisocial hours and hadn't been there to take him to the cinema, or out with the wife, or to his ice skating training and competitions.  We get on fine now, but all those times are lost.  I missed so much of his growing up, trying to earn a living, that being there at the weekends just took second place.

I did it for the right reasons - to keep a roof over our heads.  I have a few regrets in my lifetime, but that is probably the one that hurts the most when I think back on what I missed.  Family time is so important, but these days so difficult to achieve.

[Ray]

1 minute ago, Mouldy said:

The trouble is Ray, Sundays have been incorporated into a normal working week for so many people now, that couples seldom get to spend time together, or with their families.  Working in the logistics industry, I’ve worked nights for 14 years, weekends, stupid hours, twelve hour shifts, four on, four off shift patterns, started work at 02:00 in the morning etc.  Fifteen hour days were frequently worked, not from choice, but necessity.

I’ll never forget having a row with my son when he was about 18 or 19.  I can’t remember what started it, but he said to me ‘You’ve never been here for me.’  It was true.  I’d worked weekends, long, antisocial hours and hadn't been there to take him to the cinema, or out with the wife, or to his ice skating training and competitions.  We get on fine now, but all those times are lost.  I missed so much of his growing up, trying to earn a living, that being there at the weekends just took second place.

I did it for the right reasons - to keep a roof over our heads.  I have a few regrets in my lifetime, but that is probably the one that hurts the most when I think back on what I missed.  Family time is so important, but these days so difficult to achieve.

It can't of been easy Malc, I get that. When circumstances were unavoidable you stepped up and did your best for your family. You can be proud of that and so can your son now he is old enough to understand 🍺🍺

[Troyboy]

I think the general attitude to work has completely changed in the last generation. I was brought up to believe work comes first. That's what pays the bills. And as a child I completely understood this and then carried on the same mantra in my working life. I've done 36 yrs of weekends and 3 shifts. I've no complaints and never had a complaint from members of the family. They understood what was required. We made time for each other when we could. 

[rightsaidfred]

17 minutes ago, Troyboy said:

I think the general attitude to work has completely changed in the last generation. I was brought up to believe work comes first. That's what pays the bills. And as a child I completely understood this and then carried on the same mantra in my working life. I've done 36 yrs of weekends and 3 shifts. I've no complaints and never had a complaint from members of the family. They understood what was required. We made time for each other when we could. 

The trouble is by the time you have realised what you missed it is to late to do anything about it and I speak from experiance, there is only one life no second chances no rehersals.

Fred

[Troyboy]

Each of us have different experiences in life and quite right too. I've been very lucky in that I had a loving and carefree childhood. It was a brilliant time when I think back. I don't feel I've missed out on anything in my 60 yrs. I have been very fortunate and I genuinely appreciate it.

[grendel]

when you think of it the current generation are those kids that didnt see a parent while they were working hard to keep the roof over their wife and kid heads, you can hardly blame them for saying that they wont let that happen to their own kids.

And such a big thing is made now in the workplace of work / life balance, when it becomes a point where a company can score against its competitors, and more importantly means staff stick with the company long term rather than chasing pennies to work for the competition, then it does change the dynamics of how the businesses can work.

[Boaters]

I remember the old saying ( do you live to work or work to live ) I had a neighbour who got very upset if he could not work on a Sunday in a large factory .       Where  as here in our town ( in Norfolk ) they still close Wednesday afternoon apart from the big chains and the Town is empty .

[Vaughan]

On 23/08/2023 at 12:54, grendel said:

you can hardly blame them for saying that they wont let that happen to their own kids.

I can't help wondering how they intend to keep the roof over their kids' heads.

[SwanR]

I’ve been reading this thread as it’s developed. Personally I think that Clive has got it spot on. Caring about the welfare of your staff and their families is a great thing to do. I’m sure it breeds loyalty and community in itself. I’ve also seen firsthand the effects of shift work covering 24 hours 7 days a week. Some jobs can’t function without that. But where you can make that work life balance you absolutely should. 

[grendel]

2 hours ago, Vaughan said:

I can't help wondering how they intend to keep the roof over their kids' heads.

seemingly by avoiding low paid or jobs with antisocial hours, which is why there is such a struggle to fill those positions.

[rightsaidfred]

2 minutes ago, grendel said:

seemingly by avoiding low paid or jobs with antisocial hours, which is why there is such a struggle to fill those positions.

Agreed, there will always be a need for unsocial hours working particularly in the essential public services and we need to respect those prepared to do them, however in todays constantly evolving world there is a diversity of ways of earning a living some more relevant than others and as long as its legal we have to respect peoples choice of occupation be it employed or self-employed.

Fred

[Broads01]

1 hour ago, SwanR said:

I’ve been reading this thread as it’s developed. Personally I think that Clive has got it spot on. Caring about the welfare of your staff and their families is a great thing to do. I’m sure it breeds loyalty and community in itself. I’ve also seen firsthand the effects of shift work covering 24 hours 7 days a week. Some jobs can’t function without that. But where you can make that work life balance you absolutely should. 

I agree. Having exclusively Monday and Friday starts is quite a bold choice I think because Saturday starts have been the expected norm for so many decades. However, Monday and Friday turnarounds are popular now so if that works for the business and the staff then great.

[SwanR]

Of course Monday and Friday starts also suit the short break market. Prices being what they are it’s how we’ve managed to hire twice a year sometimes and take different boats from different yards. I like that mix. We might do the Thurne, Acle and along to Salhouse on one trip. Then explore the Ant, Fleet Dyke and Ranworth the next time. 

[CambridgeCabby]

For 99% of my working life I have worked what is regarded as antisocial hours as either a publican or a cabby , and as I was self employed the working of these hours was necessary to put food on the table.

Now in my semi retirement I’m in employment meaning paid holidays and every second weekend off which made me wonder if I should have done things differently and have I any regrets ? , well , no I haven’t it worked for us as a family as we knew nothing different my children have grown up in a solid loving family atmosphere and considering Katie and I have been a couple since we were 15 we must have done something right (for us at least).

There is no right or wrong as far as working weekends , holidays etc it’s all about what suits you and your family , Clive’s choices at HPC certainly seems to work for him , his family and for the business.

[YnysMon]

2 hours ago, CambridgeCabby said:

For 99% of my working life I have worked what is regarded as antisocial hours as either a publican or a cabby , and as I was self employed the working of these hours was necessary to put food on the table.

Now in my semi retirement I’m in employment meaning paid holidays and every second weekend off which made me wonder if I should have done things differently and have I any regrets ? , well , no I haven’t it worked for us as a family as we knew nothing different my children have grown up in a solid loving family atmosphere and considering Katie and I have been a couple since we were 15 we must have done something right (for us at least).

There is no right or wrong as far as working weekends , holidays etc it’s all about what suits you and your family , Clive’s choices at HPC certainly seems to work for him , his family and for the business.

Good post. There is no right and wrong, and having that solid relationship and understanding with your partner makes all the difference. Graham and I have been a couple since we were 16, though we then went to different Uni’s (that’s a good test of a relationship, though we didn’t appreciate the separation at the time). When we were first married I worked shifts at Bletchley railway station ticket office. They were permanently short of staff, so I worked lots of overtime, most weekends and often 12 hour days. The extra pay did help us to get established though.

That was fine when we were younger, but since having children we very much appreciated the 9-5 routine (lately 8-5 with every other Friday off) that working for the OU has entailed. A very generous leave entitlement too (6 weeks). When the kids started primary school I was able to work the equivalent of 3 days a week, finishing work each day in time to pick the kids up from school.  Then Graham and I switched…he worked part time whilst I reverted to full time (made more sense as I was earning more per hour). Now I’m facing retirement, I’m reflecting on how lucky we have been. So many families nowadays don’t have the flexibility that we benefited from.